I was just wonder how our cars ... handled against competition? such as other cars from its class.... Integras (type R) preludes Rsx etc.. i know the AWD is teh best handling but is it as good as teh type R , My friend has a type R and it just handles like a dream and im just curious as to if teh GSX or even Gst handle close to thsi at all ... thank you

Be careful about generalizations such as "AWD handles the best." In a recent (rather unpleasant) thread, this sort of thing caused a lot of grief.

If you restrict the discussion to a specifc kind of car, such as 2G DSMs, then you can say something specific, such as "AWD 2Gs handle better than FWD 2Gs" and then go on to say in what way (less power-on understeer) and why (acceleration force is spread across all four tires). But wide-open statements comparing driveline types will get you in trouble.

The reason for this is that there are myriad other issues to consider when talking about handling. These include weight distribution, roll-steer characteristics, and roll-camber curves. One of the reasons that all 2Gs - FWD and AWD - have terminal understeer is that we have pretty bad starting points on all three of these extra issues ... we are front heavy, the outside front toes out a lot under roll, and the rear gains camber in roll faster than the front. These are all ingredients for understeer. Makes the car safer on the street when driven by the great unwashed; sucks when racing.

Compare all this to an M3 - which has near 50/50 weight distribution, low roll steer, and steeper camber curves in the front - and you can see why some 2WD cars can absolutely kill us in handling. Something similar is seen when you compare us to ITRs and the new RSX.

- Jtoby

Jtoby, what about when you're talking about a 2g awd that has been modded to understeer less and handle better overall. Say with our kind of setup (koni and GC) and rear sway, camber kit, etc. How do we compare then?

To be honest, the only Hondas I've driven have been in the Stock category for autoXing, so I'm not really sure. However, one way to judge this (objectively) is to trust that the SCCA has these cars classed correctly when some mods have been made (i.e., in Street Prepared). In that case, AWD DSMs are at least one class higher than the Hondas under consideration.

However, your point about modifications to make up for Mitsu's stock design weaknesses is crucial. In the Stock category, we run head-to-head with ITRs (instead of being one class faster). In other words, a DSM is thought to gain more from suspension mods than an ITR does.

- Jtoby

DSMs are heavy for their size, and a bit sloppy in stock trim. Once modifications begin, the weight issue remains. Physics are interested in how big a sway bar and how low a car is only up to a certain point.

Then there's the question of "handles" versus "capability of being handled", and capability of the handler. Some drivers can do impossible things with certain cars- look at the whole idiocy of drifting. Stupid or not, those guys are skilled.

From what I've felt in mine, DSMs seem to be competent, sprited cars. But off-the-shelf, I think they have to stretch a bit to really be called true sports cars.

All that AWD does for you is help you get off the line - it doesn't help the car turn and it doesn't help the car stop - in fact driven front wheels often actively work against the latter two. This is why the first vehicles buried in the winter snowbanks are 4WD SUVs - just because getting up to 70 in a foot of snow is easy doesn't mean that staying there is.

DSMs have a weight distribution in the (best case) region of 60/40 - another strike against them. BMWs, when weighed with the driver in place almost always come out at 50/50, resulting in a far better balanced car - meaning that if everything else was the same, BMWs would still handle better than DSMs. Every BMW I've weighed (~50) comes out within 100lbs of 50/50 with someone in the driver's seat.

2Gs do have (the potential for) very good suspension geometry. A little tweaking here and there produces exceptionally good camber curves and quite good bump-steer curves. Unfortunately Mitsubishi felt that DSM drivers would range between incompetent and mediocre, and so set the car up accordingly - unlike BMWs skill assessment of their target market. Sadly the tweaking needed moves the car into classes where complete new suspension systems can be fabricated, and then that potential evapourates.

Charles

Originally posted by Defiant
Then there's the question of "handles" versus "capability of being handled"...

Click to expand...

I did not appreciate the depth of this point until I autoXed an SP Miata last spring. In fact, many of the people that I see get in real trouble in 2G DSMs at local events are people who are trying to toss a 3200# understeering pig as if it were a Miata or MR2.

Lucky for my club, those little blue lights that line the taxiways at the airport we use are pretty inexpensive.

- Jtoby

Originally posted by ACM
All that AWD does for you is help you get off the line - it doesn't help the car turn ... just because getting up to 70 in a foot of snow is easy doesn't mean that staying there is.

Click to expand...

Wow, you have no idea what you're talking about.

awd is a huge advantage over fwd if you know how to use it correctly, obviously you dont. like Defiant said, the car's capability of being handled and capability of the handler is what it's all about.

awd is a totally different style of driving than a fwd or rwd car. the car only goes where the rear end wants to. you think that steering wheel rotates the car? nah.

stock for stock or equal mods, an itr, rsx or prelude will spank a dsm in autox or road course. thats the reality. honda's double-wishbone suspension is nearly perfect in every way. the rsx suffers from the redesigned suspension in the front. with 400/345 lb springs, neuspeed koni shocks, street tires and below freezing, i pulled a .98 on a ~100 foot skidpad in my prelude.

My '94 AWD was the first thing I'd owned that wasn't RWD. I'm used to being able to come in too fast and giving the mass of the car a toss, and using the slip angle of the tires for brakes.

First time I overcooked a corner with the '94, it was quite disconcerting to feel both ends sliding just about equally when I tried my usual "technique". Luckily, I was slow enough that using the throttle pulled it back into the turn.

Now I try to stay more careful and less stupid.

Ahh, yeah, thanks Coil.
I'll be sure to bear that in mind.

Charles Moss
ESP #20
2003 NER SCCA ESP Regional Champion

Originally posted by cOiL
Wow, you have no idea what you're talking about.

awd is a huge advantage over fwd if you know how to use it correctly, obviously you dont. like Defiant said, the car's capability of being handled and capability of the handler is what it's all about.

awd is a totally different style of driving than a fwd or rwd car. the car only goes where the rear end wants to. you think that steering wheel rotates the car? nah.

stock for stock or equal mods, an itr, rsx or prelude will spank a dsm in autox or road course. thats the reality. honda's double-wishbone suspension is nearly perfect in every way. the rsx suffers from the redesigned suspension in the front. with 400/345 lb springs, neuspeed koni shocks, street tires and below freezing, i pulled a .98 on a ~100 foot skidpad in my prelude.

Click to expand...

Originally posted by cOiL


stock for stock or equal mods, an itr, rsx or prelude will spank a dsm in autox or road course. thats the reality.

Click to expand...

They would? That's why SCCA classified the Integra Type R in the same "stock" class as the GSX? This is why SCCA PRO Speedvision Cup put the Integra Type R in a class BELOW the GSX/TSi AWD (Which was going up against the Realtime NSX's, Porsches, etc)? My my my....

Also: This just in; skidpad ratings mean jack and shit.

Originally posted by cait sith
They would? That's why SCCA classified the Integra Type R in the same "stock" class as the GSX? This is why SCCA PRO Speedvision Cup put the Integra Type R in a class BELOW the GSX/TSi AWD (Which was going up against the Realtime NSX's, Porsches, etc)? My my my....

Click to expand...

SCCA is dumb. They put the Supra is in the same class as the Integra. What does that tell you? My my my....

Originally posted by JoRdAn206
My friend has a type R and it just handles like a dream...

Click to expand...

Define "handles like a dream?" What does that mean to you?

Handling is a subjective term which means different things to different people in different conditions.

Skidpad numbers, autocross classes, and roadcourse times don't measure handling. My civic handles far better than my Eclipse, in my opinion, even though my Eclipse is far superior in any measurable comparison test.

Why? Well, the civic is more responsive to my inputs. It's far softer than the eclipse, but on the street, that makes it more progressive and... well... more fun to toss around. The eclipse can certainly carve up a twisty country road faster, but it's often more fun doing it in the civic because I feel like we're working as a team. With the eclipse, it's more like I'm a just a passenger along for the (admittedly fast) ride.

So, if "handle like a dream" means "handles like a honda," it's going to be difficult. The eclipse weighs more, and feels like it has much more weight hanging off it's nose. Even though you can make the eclipse more neutral in a corner by fooling with the suspension, you can't overcome the raw physics. Making the rear slide out easier simulates the rotation of a naturally neutral car, but not the "handling."

Originally posted by cait sith
This just in; skidpad ratings mean jack and shit.

Click to expand...

I agree, but they mean a hell of a lot more than peoples subjective opinions. dsm owners are always the first one to pull that card out.

And you're gonna tell me that an ITR that has a much superior suspension, weighs nearly 700 pounds less and puts just as much power to the ground will put up an equal fight against an awd dsm? Ha, please.

Originally posted by ACM
Charles Moss
ESP #20
2003 NER SCCA ESP Regional Champion

Click to expand...

you trying to impress me? from the looks of it, you only had three other people who showed up to more than two events all season in your class . Congratulations man, you are the top dog. Have you thought about going pro?

Since we're throwing testosterone around here... me:

Jeff Brazill
STS 36
2003 blah blah SVR STS 2nd, 16th overall.

there were FOURTY people in my class. we had a large amount of dsms come out, none of them beat me in any class. oh, and regional results dont mean shit man.

My intent is not to be patronizing, but the only reason why awd is commonly thought of as hindering handling is most people don’t know how to use it to its fullest extent. Awd is such a huge advantage for nearly all forms of racing, IF used correctly. With a driver that properly understands and controls the totally different dynamics of both types of vehicles, an awd car will dominate an equal fwd car (ie. awd dsm vs. fwd dsm) in almost all racing conditions (highway blasts are not included).

Awd makes poor drivers worse.

Originally posted by igs
SCCA is dumb. They put the Supra is in the same class as the Integra. What does that tell you? My my my....

Click to expand...

Most classes have weight penalties to prevent any one model from dominating. The supra in the same class as the prelude and integra is the NA version. Handling isn't the supra's strong point anyways.

Originally posted by Siberian
Skidpad numbers, autocross classes, and roadcourse times don't measure handling. My civic handles far better than my Eclipse, in my opinion, even though my Eclipse is far superior in any measurable comparison test.

Click to expand...

That made no sense. Are you saying the civic *feels* like it handles better, but the eclipse beats it in handling tests?

Claiming skidpad numbers and roadcourse times mean nothing is just ignorance. I suppose dyno numbers are worthless to eh?

Originally posted by cOiL
Claiming skidpad numbers and roadcourse times mean nothing is just ignorance. I suppose dyno numbers are worthless to eh?

Click to expand...

Hostile AND sarcastic. Geez.

I'm saying "handling" means different things to different people in different situations. Not everyone needs a stopwatch to tell them if their car is enjoyabe to drive (which is what "good handling" means to me).

Prep a car for a road race. It's likely to be low, stiff, and have neutral/oversteer balance. It'll turn fantastic test numbers on the track. Wow, cool, it "handles great" everyone says.

Now take it home. It bangs and skitters over every bump. That cool oversteer now has you spending all your time trying to keep the rear end from leading you into the trees. And worse, that super-grippy, super-stiff, super-numbers generating setup gives you zero warning when it's going to let go.

Sure, it turns great test result numbers at the track. But does it really "handle like a dream?" Is it FUN?

My point being, hondas/acuras tend to be a blast to drive because of their handling dynamics, even though they often (though not always) "test" poorly. Simply racheting up the skidpad numbers of an eclipse doesn't necessarily make it handle "better" in a subjective, fun-to-drive sense. Unless you can shove the engine back toward the firewall and lose 400 (or whatever) lbs., it'll never "feel" as good as an ITR - even if it can beat it.

Originally posted by igs
SCCA is dumb. They put the Supra is in the same class as the Integra. What does that tell you? My my my....

Click to expand...

SCCA Disbands

Topeka, Kansas In a surprise move, the Sports Car Club of America has voted to disband, effective immediately. "I was surfing the internet and I came upon a post by the automotive expert known only as 'igs' who finally cut through the BS and said it like it is," explained SCCA President, Steve Johnson. "At first I was merely offended by what he had said," continued Johnson. "Then I tried to laugh it off and deny what he'd posted, but found that I couldn't. So I called the rest of the board and we decided to pack it in."

At the time of the dissolution, the SCCA was the fastest-growing automotive association in the world, poised to eclipse even NASCAR in terms of total participation. More than 70,000 people participated in at least one event last year. "I just wish I knew who this 'igs' guy is," concluded Johnson, with a shrug. "To see what no-one else could is a sign of true genius."

Firstly, my apologies to Coil - if I can't be polite I can at least be quiet.

AWD is undoubtedly a benefit over FWD, but so is RWD. Of the three FWD will always come out last when cornering is involved. Obviously one cannot compare a Buick Regal to an ITR, which makes life difficult - there are few (if any ?) examples of the same chassis being available in all 3 configurations, and so a direct comparison is all but impossible.

Braking:
Power to the front wheels has no positive benefit when braking, other than possibly making it a little harder for the less skilled to lock the front wheels; ABS takes care of that today, so no net benefit under braking.

Turning:
A tyre has so much grip available, you can use it how you choose - if you reach the edge of the friction circle using it up in lateral grip, there is none left for longitudinal grip - think of it as a dollar of traction in your pocket - you can spend it however you want, but you can only spend it once (copyright Keith Code, with gratitude). When power is applied in a passive AWD car some of that will go to the front. This will increase the slip angle of the tyres and, under most circumstances, as the front tyres are closer to their traction limit than the rears, this will generate understeer; any further input will push the tyre further outside the friction circle and generate more heat, more understeer, less grip. If power is fed to the rear wheels only, the slip angles increase at that end more than the front, and now the car is being steered on the throttle. Because the front tyres are handling the vast majority of turning duties they are usually closer to the edge of the friction circle and thus more susceptible to any increased inputs; the rears are usually less stressed, and so an equal input to both ends generates understeer. To avoid this one can set an AWD car up with very little rear grip, and/or remove unnecessary inputs from the front wheels.

Steering is a 2-stage process in a perfect world, one presents the car using the steering wheel, after that course corrections are accomplished using the throttle. The problem with this is that when applying power to correct the vehicle trajectory, it doesn't simply go to the rear, with AWD it goes to the front as well, and so instead of increasing the rear slip angle alone, the front increases too. Because of the previously detailed dynamics, this invariably pushes the vehicle into understeer - a safe condition, but a slow condition. This is the reason for the STi's 35/65 centre diff and the RoW EVO's ACD, to pull as much power as practical from the front axle, allowing those tyres to give their all for lateral G, and feed that power to the rear to assist longitudinal acceleration and rear slip angle. In a passive AWD system the former predominates unfortunately.


Again apologies for being rude,
Charles

Originally posted by ACM
Braking:
Power to the front wheels has no positive benefit when braking, other than possibly making it a little harder for the less skilled to lock the front wheels; ABS takes care of that today, so no net benefit under braking.

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm twisting this because I'm not going to be talking about braking to slow the car, but AWD does get an advantage over FWD that involves using the brakes.

There are two reasons to LFB on corner exit. The first is to build boost before you need it. The second is that our cars send a lot more braking force to the front wheels than the rear. So when you hit the gas and the brakes between the apex and the exit, you actually end up sending more accelerative force through the rear wheels. Done correctly and to an extreme, this can shift the car's power distribution in a way that is not unlike the 35/65 center diff setting on an STi. Most of all, it can control the power-on push by cooking the rears before the fronts.

It can also cost you a run (and scare the crap out of you) if you try it with Metal Masters.

- Jtoby

I have Koni sport with G/C 500f/350r, R/M sway bars bushings and strut bars and the car is SICK around corners. AWD really comes in handy when trying to put 400+HP to the ground..

god i can't get enough of these handling threads. So many knowledgable people posting on one thread, its great. I wish to master the art of suspension and handling!

Originally posted by paul s
I have Koni sport with G/C 500f/350r, R/M sway bars bushings and strut bars and the car is SICK around corners. AWD really comes in handy when trying to put 400+HP to the ground..

Click to expand...

Ever consider upping those rears to 400s? Try it, you'll like it. Then go for it all and get some 450s. Just never lift after turn-in again.

- Jtoby (GC/Koni [500f/450r], RM sways, SP front eccentrics)

interesting indea^^^^^

i was planning on running 450 rear 400 front... is this a bad idea i heard that putting the stiffer springs in the rear will increase oversteer due to the fact the rear wheels get camber quicker than the fronts... will this make my set up handle great or like a truck. i'm alot more used to RWD and like oversteer way more than thet understeer garbage. thanks
Ryan

I do not have a set of suspension maps for a 1G, so I don't know if you have the same issues as 2Gs. I'm careful to keep my specific suggestions only to the latter. 2Gs gain camber (in roll) in the rear faster than in the front - this I know - plus we are starting with so much understeer that running 450# rear springs (with 500# or 550# fronts) just makes the car a blast to drive. And this is with RM sways.

But I'm serious about not lifting mid-corner with this set-up. If you loan your car to others or still sometimes panic when you think you're going too fast, then do not do this.

- Jtoby

Originally posted by jtmcinder
But I'm serious about not lifting mid-corner with this set-up. If you loan your car to others or still sometimes panic when you think you're going too fast, then do not do this.

- Jtoby

Click to expand...

i know this first hand. The very night if finished installing my setup (500f/450r) i naturally took it for a test drive on a twisty mountain road nearby. I took a turn kind of hot and it was nothing the car couldn't handle with the new setup, but with me being used to the my old shitty setup, I felt like it was too fast and lifted off a little bit mid corner. And just like jtoby warned, the back came out and there was little i could do about it by then. The car did a 360 and the back slid into a ditch on the side and then back onto the road. I was REALLY lucky that it didn't damage anything in my car or anybody, but the warning is to be taken seriously!