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EVO III creep control

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jibberishballr

15+ Year Contributor
477
3
Aug 23, 2005
Chico, California
So im going to get an E316g, install kit, and the wastegate in the link below.
Do you think this will be adequate for no boost and will i need anything else for curing creep? I know i can port but with an external wastegate i dont need to right? Also i will be getting fuel mods, tuning, and fmic soon. Im just going to run the turbo at lower boost until then.

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=16320&cat=446
 
GVR4592 said:
Where do you plan on putting the wastegate?
That's right, if this is being mounted on the O2 housing, same amount of porting (as if you were porting for internal gate) plus the entire wastegate hole will be required. If you're mounting it on the manifold, you should be fine.
 
You might want to port, but not from an anti-creep standpoint. If you want a wider inlet to your turbine, you could get a 7cm gasket-matched port done on your turbine and mani. Same sort of idea as replacing the stock UICP with a 2-1/4" or larger solid pipe: decrease pressure losses as gasses circulate.
 
kenamond said:
You might want to port, but not from an anti-creep standpoint. If you want a wider inlet to your turbine, you could get a 7cm gasket-matched port done on your turbine and mani. Same sort of idea as replacing the stock UICP with a 2-1/4" or larger solid pipe: decrease pressure losses as gasses circulate.

what if i plan on getting the evo III manifold?
 
You can always try a simple port job on a your EVO3 16G. In many cases, this is enough to minimize the boost creep.

That TiAl wategate will do the job, but you have to decide where to put it (it is not a trevial job...).

Personally, I prefer putting them in the 02 housing and routing them back into the 02 housing. And your factory WG hole does NOT need to be ported much... The reason why it is a restriction on a flapper valve is because the valve only opens 1/4" or so and only on one side. Removing it completely (or just wiring wiring it open) creages a MUCH LARGER openning!
 
So what would you do in my situation? I originally was deciding between a 14b and EVO III and really want the EVO III. I only want to spend 800 dollars if i can and am confused on what i should do? What would you do with 800 dollars? (turbo and accessories only....ill get the other mods after a while and just run the turbo at low boost) Also i dont trust myself enough to port it myself...LOL
 
jibberishballr said:
So what would you do in my situation? I originally was deciding between a 14b and EVO III and really want the EVO III. I only want to spend 800 dollars if i can and am confused on what i should do? What would you do with 800 dollars? (turbo and accessories only....ill get the other mods after a while and just run the turbo at low boost) Also i dont trust myself enough to port it myself...LOL

You can still run with an evo3, but you need to make sure that the turbine inlet is the same diameter as the exhaust mani collector exit. I'm not sure if the evo3 mani has a 7cm^2 opening or not, but if you can choose, you should go with a larger opening. However, if you are getting the turbo first and the mani later, you're going to have a big step from the stock 2g mani (small) to the evo3 (large) which will disrupt flow and hurt performance. But if you get the evo3 sized to match the stock 2g mani, you'll have to have it ported later - a bit of a dilema.

I'd save my money if I were you and wait until you can get both at the same time and get them gasket matched. Unless you can find a deal on an evo3, it and the install kit are going to add up to around $800, so you're not going to have cash for the mani (unless you already have it).

This all depends on whether you're putting an external wastegate in or not. If you put the gate on the mani, you shouldn't have creep problems, but then you need to worry about what to do with all of that dumped exhaust. If you dump under the hood, it'll be LOUD and won't pass inspection, but if you reroute it back into the exhaust, you have to pay to have all of those parts made/modified, or pay to buy an appropriate DP and WG piping.

If you're going with an internal gate and will eventually be running with a large exhaust, you'll need to port the evo3 turbine inlet to avoid creep.

I'd recommend doing some homework on evo3 creep, external wastegates, and porting before you go much further.

By the way, porting isn't all that hard, but it will cost you ~$150 in tools, burrs, and bits (less if you get used tools or already have them).
 
jibberishballr said:
what if i plan on getting the evo III manifold?

If you plan on getting the Evo III manifold, I wouldn't port the Evo III 16G at all. Instead, get the sealing ring that goes between the manifold and the turbine housing and use a stock 16G gasket. You won't ever leak exhaust that way, and you get a nice smooth path from the exhaust manifold to the turbine without excess widening and narrowing.

This is the way I have my car set up.

RRE sells the 16G sealing ring. Works great.

Personally, I think you are wasting money with an external wastegate, though. Use that money for a set of cams, instead (assuming your fuel setup is already in place, which it should be).
 
So what would you do in my situation? I originally was deciding between a 14b and EVO III and really want the EVO III.

That is a case where exercising some restraint and buying a SMALLER turbo might be a better idea! A small 16g might be a better choice if you are not ready for dealing with boost creep.

Even a small 16g can have some major creep issues, but it is much more likely to be corrected with porting alone.

I only want to spend 800 dollars if i can and am confused on what i should do? What would you do with 800 dollars? (turbo and accessories only....ill get the other mods after a while and just run the turbo at low boost) Also i dont trust myself enough to port it myself...

You have many options. You can ether buy a new 16G (of any viraety), have it ported (if you do not feel like doing it yourself) and hope for best. Bare in mind that your throttle is the ultimate boost control :).

You can still run with an evo3, but you need to make sure that the turbine inlet is the same diameter as the exhaust mani collector exit.

Lets think abut this for second. You get creep because you have TOO MUCH exhaust going through the turbo and because the wastegate openning does not have enough capacity. Porting the turbo inlet will sent MORE exhaust gas into the turbo, so your wastegate will need even more capacity. So while I generally agree that it is good mod if you are looking to extract the most power out of your engine/turbo combination, it is NOT a good mod if you are concerned with boost creep.

I'm not sure if the evo3 mani has a 7cm^2 opening or not, but if you can choose, you should go with a larger opening.

EVO3 manifold has an opening FOR a 7cm^2 housing, but it is NOT the size of the opening, as many might interpret looking at your post. The opening size on a 7cm^2 housing is actually 6.0cm (6cm^2 housing has opening of 5.5cm). So there is a .5cm of mismatch.

However, that is not a major factor in making power. I have never seen anyone put any numbers on it, but I would guess that you are loosing ~5-10hp by not taking care of that mismatch. This might be a big deal for a 120hp Honda, but not for a 300hp Mitsu.

And I will agree with you that whenever possible, you should buy a manifold which matches your turbo.
 
Now that I see that you don't have a fuel pump or injectors or DSMLink/AFC, I would strongly recommend against bolting up an Evo III 16G or any other non-stock turbo. Upgrade your fuel system before giving the engine a ton more air. Don't do it backwards or you will just end up back here complaining about some issue that wouldn't have happened if you had done it the right way.

If you do this in the right order, when you bolt up the turbo, you won't need to worry about boost creep because you won't have to run less than 18psi. Problem solved without the expense and hassle of an external wastegate.

Unfortunately, too many people upgrade the turbo first, complain later.
 
ShapeGSX said:
Now that I see that you don't have a fuel pump or injectors or DSMLink/AFC, I would strongly recommend against bolting up an Evo III 16G or any other non-stock turbo. Upgrade your fuel system before giving the engine a ton more air. Don't do it backwards or you will just end up back here complaining about some issue that wouldn't have happened if you had done it the right way.

If you do this in the right order, when you bolt up the turbo, you won't need to worry about boost creep because you won't have to run less than 18psi. Problem solved without the expense and hassle of an external wastegate.

Unfortunately, too many people upgrade the turbo first, complain later.



But you could slap on the evo 16g and run stock boost on a stock fuel system right ?
 
That's the trouble. It is hard to run boost that low with the Evo III 16G. It wants to run ~18psi on a 4G63. That is why the wastegate is sized the way it is. Lancer Evolution IIIs didn't have trouble with boost creep, I would assume, because they ran ~18psi from the factory.

If you try to run 12psi, the stock wastegate probably isn't going to let you. You will get boost creep (and then probably fuel cut). So then you take the turbo off and port the hell out of it, install a larger wastegate, etc, and still end up with boost creep.

Why fight it? Let it run 18psi or more. If you have the right mods, it won't knock, and it will go like hell.

I don't even think there would be any performance benefit to running 12psi on an Evo III vs 12psi on a T25.

So just save yourself the hassle of trying to get a 16G to run low boost and do mods in the right order.
 
Fabian972 said:
But you could slap on the evo 16g and run stock boost on a stock fuel system right ?

I would go a step farther. You can probably get away with running slightly higher boost (~13-15psi) on any 16G with a stock fuel system. But your problem will be with keeping this boost that low (because of boost creep). Which is what started this discussion.

And if you do not do anything about this creep, you might see 25psi on a 16G on stock fuel system… I am sure that it will feel awesome for a few pulls, but you will surely blow your engine after a short while!
 
My Evo3 16g had CRAZY creep. I put on the Tial 38mm 2 days later and cured it completely.

Had the stock 32mm on it, and it was ported on the hot side. Went from whatever boost I set it at (19psi) at 3K to 30psi by 4k.

crazy
 
That doesn't sound like creep to me. Sounds more like a bad wastegate actuator, or too much pre-load, or bad boost control, or no signal to the wastegate at all.

Creep shouldn't come into play at 4000RPM. If you get creep, you would see it in the upper RPMs, not at 4000RPM.
 
I have made it a standard procedure to machine out the divider between the turbine outlet and the wastegate outlet on any customer car running a EVO3. Then just knife edge the divider on the O2 housing and it should be golden. On one occasion, combined with a port job, I reduced the minimum boost output by 7psi.

Similar to this:
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/parts/turbos/pte_turbo/pte_turbo_exhaust_outlet001.jpg

As stated above, put some pressure to your wastegate to ensure it is in proper working order before you get crazy.
 
Nope. It was definately creep. I even wired the flapper arm completely open and would go to almost 30psi by like 6k RPMs.. It would just take longer to get there.

I then took my MBC off and hooked directly to the WG actuator, and it did 11psi, then at 4K shot up again towards 30.

I took the actuator off my OLD 16G - which I know worked perfectly - same thing.

I put a 38mm Tial on my mani, and it works perfectly. Full 19psi at 3k RPMS and stays there till redline.

Still think it wasn't boost creep? :)
 
I have made it a standard procedure to machine out the divider between the turbine outlet and the wastegate outlet on any customer car running a EVO3.

If you are happy with crippling the turbo, I'm sure that's a fine solution. I wouldn't do it, though. Yuck.

Car modification is all about getting air and exhaust to flow through the system smoothly. Letting the wastegate gasses slam into and impede the smooth stream of the turbine outlet exhaust can't be a good thing.
 
TheClaw said:
Nope. It was definately creep. I even wired the flapper arm completely open and would go to almost 30psi by like 6k RPMs.. It would just take longer to get there.

I then took my MBC off and hooked directly to the WG actuator, and it did 11psi, then at 4K shot up again towards 30.

I took the actuator off my OLD 16G - which I know worked perfectly - same thing.

I put a 38mm Tial on my mani, and it works perfectly. Full 19psi at 3k RPMS and stays there till redline.

Still think it wasn't boost creep? :)

What O2 housing and exhaust were you using? What exhaust manifold?

That is some seriously abnormal stuff.
 
ported stock O2 housing, Evo3 Mani (now for sale), and 3" turbo back - one pipe the whole way. no cat, just a muffler..

Exhaust gas takes the path of least resistance.. I'm guessing that going down the 3" pipe straight to the back of the car was a lot less resistance than a small 32mm hole with a flapper hovering over it at a 90° angle..

Either way - the external WG worked wonders.
 
TheClaw said:
ported stock O2 housing, Evo3 Mani (now for sale), and 3" turbo back - one pipe the whole way. no cat, just a muffler..

Exhaust gas takes the path of least resistance.. I'm guessing that going down the 3" pipe straight to the back of the car was a lot less resistance than a small 32mm hole with a flapper hovering over it at a 90° angle..

Sounds like the same setup I have.

I have a 3" turbo-back, too, with just a muffler. The only 2.5" part is the first bend.

I have zero creep above 18psi. I haven't tried below 18psi.

My cams may have something to do with not creeping, though.

In general, the guys with the fastest 16G cars don't have trouble with boost creep at all with a bone stock wastegate. We must be doing something right. :p
 
So if you have supporting mods such as 550cc injectors, and 255lph pump all tuned, would you be safe at 18psi and not have to worry about porting?
 
Gunter said:
So if you have supporting mods such as 550cc injectors, and 255lph pump all tuned, would you be safe at 18psi and not have to worry about porting?
No, with good flowing exhaust, a virgin EVO III will most likely creep to 22psi+, 18psi really isn't considered creep going by EVO III standards.
 
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