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Running Out of Fuel on 550's?

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umiami80

20+ Year Contributor
302
1
Apr 16, 2002
New_JerseyUS
OK, I have a DSM Performance ETE-12 (400WHP MAX) and Full boltons and FMIC, FPR< Pump, yada yada.

I have DSM Performance 550's and I went to a tuner shop today and had them help me tune my ##### finally. This guy had my car getting boost cut all over the place and finally said taht I need bigger injectors? Is this possible? He said to get 750's to make a baddass pump gass car. This man knows what he is talking about and has a 9.0 second GSX with a t-66 and Stand alone fule management system and all that, great mechanic and works on all my friends cars, but assures me That I am running out of fuel.


He had tuned my Friends car with a Big 16G and that ##### ran out of fuel with 550's, he now runs 750s and a PMS and that car is just NASTY, should I Get 750's and through them in? How could I be out of fuel on this turbo?
 
Well no offense to your "mechanic" but it sounds like BS to me. I dont think there are many 16g or mutt1 setups that can get more than 90-95% duty cycles on a 16g... What is the name of this guy that runs a 9.0? I did not knwo there was another:rolleyes: Anyhow if you plan to stick with that turbo dont get 750cc's. And dont get the HRC 625cc's either:thumb:
 
No thi sguy is legit, his car is Nuts and goes through trannys like water, running a Tek 3 Stand alone and is nuts. The guy that works with him is running a BIG 16G and had 550's, they were maxed out badly by his tuning, now runs 750's with a PMS and is extremely fast, fastest 16G I have been in, race gas or not, the way to make BIG power on pump gas is to use bigger injectors, and from the way he works I believe him. I am truely out of fuel by his tuning, where I get great timing until fuel cut, or run the car Lean, and get only 9 degrees of timing and T-25 like performance up, this guy also tuned out 800RPMs spoolup on my MF1, he is legit and is maxing my cars potetntial.

Any otrher info?
 
t-66 and Stand alone fule management system

Is the car lime green? Do the floorboards pop out during high manifold pressure situations? j/k Seriously, who is this mysterious DSM driver that runs 9s? Does he have a name?:confused:
 
Well, since you trust him so much then follow his advice...why even ask here? Is this a troll...?

Do I think you can be seeing fuel cut with a 16g and 550's...yea, it's possible. I ran my 550's out of steam on my old 19c setup and never had a FMIC or cams. It's possible, but I don't think 750's are for you. 660's would be MORE than enough if you are indeed maxing the 550's out. Why are yall even guessing though. Hook up a datalogger and look at your injector duty cycles... You hitting 90% duty cycle means you need those larger injectors.
 
Ya Id like to get some info on this guy as I think this would make him the second fastest DSM in the world. ANyhow how bout you show us a dyno graph or a log sheet or something. What injector duty cycles are you running (with this awesome tuner?)?

The way to make big power on pump gas is to tune it correctly not to use huge injectors... 750cc injectors for a 16g on pump gas is just to big IMO. 550's were more than sufficient for me and many others (especially on pump)... how much boost are you running, what is he using to tune your car? I dont even beleive you, but Im trying to give the benefit of the doubt here and be nice about it;)


Austin
 
Oh and what fuel pump do you have? Do you have fpr? Show us some stuff here dude

Austin
 
Sorry

Holley 255LPH Fuel Pump
Buschur Racing Areomotive FPR set at base 43PSI on a 1G rail
DSM Performance Ball and Plate 550CC Injectors
MF1 Level One turbo, ETE-12
Greddy SMALL FMIC
HKS Supersequential BOV
APEXi SAFC
Autometer Boost, A/F, EGT gauge
Westach EGT Probe
DSM Performance 3.0 intake
K&N AirFilter
Thermal Research & Development 3.0 Turbo Back Exhaust, no cat
Ported Exhaust Manifold
Ported 02 Housing
EGR Block Off
Oil Return Catch Can
A/C removed


Granted it is FREEXING in Miami today, like 40 at noon!! I cannot run past 17PSI as I get fuel cut and my duty cycle was at 116% at 20PSI, not good, or I can lean dat ##### out and run hot as hell and haver NO TOPEND but get nop fuel cut and 9 degrees timing.


whdaya think?
 
Yeah 660's would work but I am doing head mods, as did he, and would run out of fuel again on a ported 2G head and 264/272 Combo Bump Stix, I am getting 750CC injectors and will tune them back, thsi car will get and EXCELENT timing advance with them and I wouldn't even be close to taxing the system.

AS for now would it be safe to bump my fuel pressure from 43PSI to say 45PSI?? Would that halp me out at all with fuel cut?
 
OK cHECK THIS OUT, i WENT TO rc'S SITE and plugged in my information.

here is the link http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

For me to achieve 320 CRANk Horse power with 4 injectors with a maximum injector duty cycle of 90% at 43PSI base FP I would need 611CC injectors, and that is just enough.

I am going with 750's, give me room to upgrade.
 
"dont even beleive you, but Im trying to give the benefit of the doubt here and be nice about it"

That is very cool, but what ever, This mechanic's car looks like ####, it is a 1G GSX with some body rust and dents and can't hit the track till he gets a cage rated for the single digits (as he was disallowed after making a pass without a cage). Anyways hiz car is back in pieces now, and is using a system called a "TECH 3" or something, runs about $2,000+ and allows complete control of everything, flowing about 30PSI it is just nasty, makes 560WHP, should be good for High 9's low 10's depending upon 60foot times.
 
Originally posted by umiami80
Sorry

Buschur Racing Areomotive FPR set at base 43PSI on a 1G rail

Granted it is FREEXING in Miami today, like 40 at noon!! I cannot run past 17PSI as I get fuel cut and my duty cycle was at 116% at 20PSI, not good, or I can lean dat ##### out and run hot as hell and haver NO TOPEND but get nop fuel cut and 9 degrees timing.

whdaya think?

What do I think? Well, I'm just going to call you out..but I'll do it nicely :thumb:.

First off I would be increasing my base fuel pressure to combat the fuel cut since I am maxing out my injectors. And if any tuner is sooo goood, they would do this for you so you won't run lean and blow your engine. I would try 50psi base setting.

Secondly, what are you using to log your engine? I'd like to know what kind of cracked out datalogger shows 116% duty cycles. An injector can only go 100%...that's it...no more...zilch...nada...zippo. At this point the injector is called "static". Which means that the injector no longer has a "pulse width"...it is continuously open and is just letting fuel run through. It can't open any further than that. That's like saying you have 116% throttle angle...it just can't happen.

Also, your turbo is for 360hp MAX...not 400 (www.dsm-performance.com). When it says MAX it means ported head, cams, standalone, MAP instead of MAF, FMIC bigger than that small greddy of yours, something better than a "ported o2 housing", sheetmetal intake mani, and a hope and a prayer (on top of all your current mods). I'd bet your putting something like 280hp down...300 if you're lucky. I'd also bet you are tuning too rich (most common affliction of the DSM tuner).

My advice, get a logger, see what you are actually running (duty cycles), use a wide band and tune your car in nicely.
 
Calling you out, but doing it nicely, here goes.

"And if any tuner is sooo good, they would do this for you so you won't run lean and blow your engine. I would try 50psi base setting."
&nBFP; Raising the BAse FP is a band aid and you know it, if you increase the base fuel pressure, the spray pattern and accuracy of smaller injectors will get ####ed up, if it didn't, we would keep our 450's and run 80+ BSP, I asked him to do it anyways and he said he doesn't work with band aids, and to do it right the first time, I then checked my math -SEE ABOVE< and I am in fact out of injector.
"Also, your turbo is for 360hp MAX...not 400 "
Wrong again there sweet cheeks, that is the NEWER mutt which has a smaller compressor housing and different turbine wheel, slighlty more agressive so I get more lag but more topend performance, hence the 400WHP rating, mine was made over a year ago and only 500 were made for a select group buy by David Hall, they were all sold within a week, and when they were all complete and sent out, a new compressor housing was used, mine was in fact rated at 400WHP with cams and head and so on, David made all that WHP on a SAFC, a 1G head swapped on a 2G, HKS 264 bump sticks, and all supporting mods, a PMS would make a little more I am guess, this is all on a stock bottom end, with a built bottom end there is much more to be had. I am lucky cuz If I want to upgrade my Turbo to a Level three rated at 800CFM's at 15PSi (Mine is rated at 600CFM's), it just costs me 300 parts and labor and all they do is a different wheel, that is it, if I had that turbo you speak of now, it would have to replace the entire compressor housing and wheel, and it would not be worth it. Plus my wheel flows slightly more then that turbo and is in fact an ETA compressor housing, I have an ETE, look that one up and see that it is rated at 400WHP too, which does not exist and cannot be bought unless used, nice try. Great turbo and will hold 30PSI if asked .

And for the duty cycle, you are right and wrong for my situation, mine are rated to run up to about 90% before the spray pattern gets all fuct up, (RC's are good till 80%), on the dyno the rate I was accelerating and the power needed to run the boost I wanted at those timing my injectors would HAVE to Flow at a rated of 116%, which as we all know is impossible, SO I hit fuel cut like clock work.

Thank you for your help, you know your ####, just do a little more research before gently calling me out, thanks for the calm flame, it'll keep me warm down here in Miami as it is beyond cold for South Florida, me thinks i will get better in a month when it'll be 80 again.

BTW, is it safe to run a BASe FP of 50? ISn't that so high and will #### my idle? I was thinking 45 MAX?
 
ASlo, My small greedy is perfectly matched for my mutt, If I upgrade it'll be too small, it flows fine and has been in the 11's, which is right where my turbo stops, one side hot, the other side freezing cold.

Rich I am not, I am simply out of fuel, I need bigger injectors to avoid the knocking I am getting, they way my car is set, I have over 20 degrees of timing advance before hitting fuel cut, bigger injectors would fix this.

Hacking the mas is an Bandaid
Bumping the fuel Pressure is a bandaid, but I will bump it to 45 from 43, that is all I can do for now and wait till it gets hot
 
Want more fuel? Raise FP.

Want to get rid of fuel cut? Fix them boost leaks. Or quit trying to throw raw fuel out your exhaust.

Want a fast car? Get rid of that turbo.

Want a good tuner? Do it yourself.


OH OH OH, I thought you said that your mechanic had a 9.0 second car in your first thread? No in the last thread I read, it's not even running, nor has ran those times.

I'd also like to see a 560whp DSM go nines. LOL. Let alone 9.0. Hell let alone under 10.5 by most people. Think again.
 
Hey now I was trying to be nice and give you teh benfit of the doubt...
Screw that, it is apparent to me that you really do not know what yo are talking about. You said that you had 116% duty cycles. I didnt want to be rude, so I just said get the 660cc's! What are you asking here, each person that says something you try and contradict... what do you want to know. you mus knwo your setup, so do what you gotta do and leave it at that. Why ask these silly questions?
 
Hey now I was trying to be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt...
Screw that, it is apparent to me that you really do not know what yo are talking about. You said that you had 116% duty cycles. I didnt want to be rude, so I just said get the 660cc's! What are you asking here, each person that says something you try and contradict... what do you want to know. you mus knwo your setup, so do what you gotta do and leave it at that. Why ask these silly questions?
 
You guys like to be internet #####s instead of helping Fellow DSMrs out, to go fast get rid of that turbo? What the #### is that supposed to mean, just because you dislike a turbo doesn't mean it's bad, that is just an opinionated statement based on a hater like you.

Screw that, it is apparent to me that you really do not know what yo are talking about. You said that you had 116% duty cycles. I didnt want to be rude, so I just said get the 660cc's!

Thank you, I know, just searched and checked because I was confused because the Idiots at DSM performance said I would NEVER run out of fuel with these injectors, my fault for believeing them. If I ran Race gas I would be alright but for now I am fuct.
Theroetically, the injectors would have to be flowing at 116%++ to keep up with the fuel demands of my car at that stage of tuningwhich = 638CC injectors, how did I fugure that out? I did a little math and consulted RC Engineering's website, it stated that I would need exactly 611CC's to keep up with my tuning so I wasn't far off, not possible with 550's, yes I will get 660's thank you for your info, they are on the way. I really want 700+ injectors, yeah I would have to lean them out a lot but would allow room for head and cam work, 750's would flow perfect with a ported 2G head and HKS cams, they will be here by the summer.



Want more fuel? Raise FP
Did that, fuct my spray pattern and car was worse off and Ideld like ####, tried from 45PSI to 50PSI, got worse as I increased, anymore bright Ideas?


Want to get rid of fuel cut? Fix them boost leaks. Or quit trying to throw raw fuel out your exhaust.

Car may have boost leaks, I am upgradingthe rest of my pipes as we speak, lowered the raw fuel with an Areomotive FPR, works wonders with a big pump and really allowed great spoolup.



Want a fast car? Get rid of that turbo.
That is an extremely ignorant statement and you do not know what you are talking about, it flows WAY more then any 16G and flows colder air efficently and spools up at 3200RPMS, not bad.



OH OH OH, I thought you said that your mechanic had a 9.0 second car in your first thread? No in the last thread I read, it's not even running, nor has ran those times.

First off, a 9.0 second car is anywhere between 9.0 and 9.99, there is a lot of room to work with. 560 WHP on turbo, another modest 100Shot brings it well past the 600WHP mark, OH OH OH WHAT now, uhh hu UH Hu I can do th internet battle tooo uhhh uh, it needs a tranny rebuild as he fried 2nd gear and bent the 1/2 fork, the tranny is on the floor in pieces, 9 second cars need repairs too you know, it isn't all fun and games. When he gets to moroso, I'll post vids But I would need help in hosting.

Again you are right as it is more of a low 10 sec car as opposed as a high nine, it'll run high 9's as it ran low 10's weighing in at 3300 pounds without driver and not stripped, after stripping it will run 9's if the tranny holds out.


Any other words of wisdom?

AGain I do not wish to begin a flame war, I came here looking for answers and got them. Now I know I don't know everything with DSM's, That is why I am here asking quations, but try to keep flaming of random strangers to a minium and try to help eachother out.

Thanks
 
Words of wisdom? Ok, 550's are fuggin pieces of crap. A 16g setup can max those out easily and everyone who has them always runs at damn near the limits of their fuel system. Increasing fuel pressure is a wack band-aid approach once out get above~45 psi base. I ran 11.9@119 on my 20g with 550's and it was shitty maxing them out and worrying about egt. After that I got 720's and it was one of the best purchases I ever made for my car. Streetable boost is now 20 psi instead of 17 and on race gas I fear what i will be able to do. My car feels smoother and the top end is far better.

550's are very easy to max out. Now get 720's and never look back.

Sean

Oh, and get a real ####ing turbo.
 
LMFAO

Geez man... I dont think that anyone was flaming you dude. You posted these questions that you already seemed to knwo the answers for...LOL what the hell do you wnat from us. Sometime we get shitty responses to our questions sometimes really good ones. Guess you just got the bad draw this time, especially with a few of those statements you made. I dont try to flame anyone, but you came here argued somethign that you already knew then got pissed :laugh: Relax man, its all internet. 660cc's is the solution, thats what I said earlier and thats what you did. Enjoy


Austin
 
umiami80, 660 injectors would be fine but for the same price at RRE I would get 720's especially if your gonna have future mods. Just got some myself , went from 550's to 720's . Big difference, car runs alot stronger with no idle issues.
 
Actually, my 550's appear to be fine My God DAMN EGT probe was fuct and reading EGT's WAY HOTTER then they were, right now I have it set at -15% accross the board and 20PSI and the car ####ing hauls ass, I am spinning all 4 wheels, actually beginning to have traction problems. Car actaully salms you itno the seat and holds all the way to red line, thanx for the help.

PS, Westach EGT probes are trash, ####ing reads 1600EGT at 15% throttle, then jumps all over the place, then dies, then does it again, trash.

I'll get 750's down the road.

AS far as the Flameing, someone had stated that my car will only go fast if I get rid of my turbo, A direct flame agianst the MF1, #### that thsi piece pulls plus I got the entire kit for $745 shipped to my door on the group buy.
 
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