Ok heres the deal, car is all ripped apart, pistons are out they are getting re ringed. Should i rehone it or not, only reason i say not is because the block only has 60k miles on it and i can still see the cross hatching in the block. Some people say to do it others say not to.

I will take some pictures later but i'm sick SOO i'm not going outside

yes it should be re-honed to insure propper ring real.

is it possible that something could go wrong with the honing? Its pretty simple from what i've seen but i wanna be 100% sure

I woundnt throw new rings in with out honing it... if you want them to properly seal its what you need to do.

i think i'm goin to lightly hone the block, nothing major, since its still got the cross hatching and it has such low miles the block is pretty much as good as it can get. SO i'll hone it alittle to clear anything that could be in tehre

It's not about wether the block has low miles or not, or wether you can see the old cross hatch marks. It doesn't matter if it's a 200k freshly bored out block, or a 10k old block getting a rering job. You need to hone it the same if you want new rings to wear in, and sit properly into the cylinders.

No! . . . if you:

1. Don't have scoring on your piston walls, and

2. Use use OEM style cast iron rings (no chrome/moly). Cast rings are good for, what, 600-700hp?

. . . then you DONOT need to rehone.

Read Honing and Deglazing. According to this, you're probably better off not honing unless the above two stipulations are not met.

I have rebuilt a 250 whp turbocharged 1995 5s-fe Camry without honing(10,000 miles on rebuild). I have rebuilt a 300 whp 1985 T-bird TC without honing(27,500 miles on rebuild). I have rebuilt my 1990 eclipse GST running and 18g at 28+ psi w/ FP2X cams, dsmlink, 8500rpm revlimit, and more (3500 miles on rebuild). No blowby, all compression within 5 psi of factory, no problems.

Also read Break-In Secrets. This works hand in hand with non-honed rebuilds. This was my break-in procedure for all the engines I've ever rebuilt and have had zero issues.

dsm-onster said:

No! . . . if you:

1. Don't have scoring on your piston walls, and

2. Use used OEM style cast iron rings (no chrome/moly). Cast rings are good for, what, 600-700hp?

. . . then you DONOT need to rehone.

Read Honing and Deglazing. According to this, you're probably better off not honing unless the above two stipulations are not met.

I have rebuilt a 250 whp turbocharged 1995 5s-fe Camry without honing(10,000 miles on rebuild). I have rebuilt a 300 whp 1985 T-bird TC without honing(27,500 miles on rebuild). I have rebuilt my 1990 eclipse GST running and 18g at 28+ psi w/ FP2X cams, dsmlink, 8500rpm revlimit, and more (3500 miles on rebuild). No blowby, all compression within 5 psi of factory, no problems.

Also read Break-In Secrets. This works hand in hand with non-honed rebuilds. This was my break-in procedure for all the engines I've ever rebuilt and have had zero issues.

Click to expand...

i bow before you and kiss your feet.

LaN- said:

i bow before you and kiss your feet.

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Hey. Don't kiss my feet or anything. Besides, I do too much ass kicking. So they smell like butt. JK.

Man, we're all in the same boat here. If I can pass along a little info that I've learned to you then I'll be repaying all those that have come before me and helped me out.

Sorry to hijack, but is a hone job done with a hand drill and pep boys style hone gonna be ok, or will it #### things up more than help? Also, should I be worried about the amount of material the honing removes? I wanna avoid having to bore the block so I want new stroker pistons to fit with good clearance.

dsm-onster said:

No! . . . if you:

1. Don't have scoring on your piston walls, and

2. Use use OEM style cast iron rings (no chrome/moly). Cast rings are good for, what, 600-700hp?

. . . then you DONOT need to rehone.

Read Honing and Deglazing. According to this, you're probably better off not honing unless the above two stipulations are not met.
...

Click to expand...

Just to muck up the work in progress a quick read of the above reveals a couple of things that need to be questioned.

"And hone bores only when you have to, ie as the final "finish" of a bore job"

Another factor not mentioned is what does the ring maker recommend. I've done probably hundreds of engine rebuilds with a significant percent of Japanese origin. The article did not identify when the research was done and what products were sampled. I don't ever remember using a ridge reamer on any Japanese engine for the metallurgy they have developed is vastly superior to what Detroit has employed until they were forced to compete.

I certainly can attest that Nissan issued a bulletin sometime in the late 70's or early 80"s indicating any re-ring had to include the use of a bead hone for deglazing the cylrs.

I respectfully must disagree with making absolutes of the article in question and the the conclusins offed as biblical. My suggestion would be to deglaze using a medium grit bead hone of proper diameter and a reasonable solvent such as Stoddard or even WD-40. With 60k miles and still showing factory hone hatching is a testement to what the Japenese have done, compare that to any Detroit block of previous design where you would be looking for the ridg reamer and some significant wear.

If the crank is in place then it must be protected with rags to catch any solvent and fines from contamination of the block and crank. One to five minutes for each cylinder should be adequate, do watch the tip of the hone for it will snag the rags and yank the drill motor from you hand. A 1/4 drill motor is too fast, use a 3/8" or 1/2" preferably variable speed. A solvent vapor degreaser which uses compressed air and a venturi to rinse involved parts.

I have also found that "Tyme" carb/parts dip will remove the glaze from cylrs, pistons, rings, rods, and to some extent valves and stems. There are other similar products but this is the best of the lot from my experience. Do not spray this solution for it's bad stuff.

I think the bottom line is to check with the mfg. and see what they want for their products. As a former SAE associate I have seen some interesting papers offered at the regional and national level. The fact is we don't know if that was selective editing to support a point or an ax to grind.

Cheers,
GTM

Very, very good points!!! But my 6-bolt 4G63 Mitsubishi engine has done great without honing after a rebuild at + 180K.

I understand. The manufacturere knows best. You're right. No one should make absolutes w/ the above article... But, concerning the 4G63 block, mine did great w/ an above spec compression test. I rolled the dice for everyone and you can make absolutes w/ my results.

Nevertheless, it is good to have both sides to the story in one thread... This encourages productive results for sure.

If you are going to be running chrome moly rings (stock 4g63 rings), than you better hone those cylinders. Those rings break in by wearing from the friction of the cylinder walls created by honing the cylinders, when using cast rings, they will actually wear the cylinder to seal the rings. I havn't came across a set of cast rings for a 4g63 yet. But yeah you are going to want to hone it. There is a chance that they will seal, but it is only a chance. If you hone them, than you know for sure that your rings will be seated. So one way you might have to tare it down in 100 miles to rering it again, or you can have many many miles of trouble free driving out of it. Your choice.

According to SBR the rings on Wiseco pistons are cast iron. They also said they'd break in without honing.

bryanwheat said:

If you are going to be running chrome moly rings (stock 4g63 rings), than you better hone those cylinders. Those rings break in by wearing from the friction of the cylinder walls created by honing the cylinders, when using cast rings, they will actually wear the cylinder to seal the rings. I havn't came across a set of cast rings for a 4g63 yet. But yeah you are going to want to hone it. There is a chance that they will seal, but it is only a chance. If you hone them, than you know for sure that your rings will be seated. So one way you might have to tare it down in 100 miles to rering it again, or you can have many many miles of trouble free driving out of it. Your choice.

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OEM rings are cast iron .

Beck-Arnley rings, which can be picked up at any Advance Auto, are cast. This is what I used when I rebuilt my non-honed block.

On advanced website it lists a bunch of different rings for the 4g63 and alot of them say chrome, as far as the Beck-Arnley it doesnt say either way. I think they are cast but considering it doesnt say chrome could mean its cast.

ya never know.

Thanks for your input GTM

I havn't came across a set of cast rings for the motor, i use all speed pro, nippon racing, and total seal rings. Cast rings are trash, not even worth the money, especually for a boosted vehicle, plus you will end up with alot more ring of a ridge at the top of the cylinder after some miles, oposed to having no ridge with moly rings.

steel_3d said:

According to SBR the rings on Wiseco pistons are cast iron. They also said they'd break in without honing.

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I have used quite a few sets of weisco's and never got a set that came with cast rings, they always have moly rings with them. That is a horrible combination, forged pistons with cast rings, it is like buying your girl a diamond, and the ring being made from plastic.

dsm-onster said:

Very, very good points!!! But my 6-bolt 4G63 Mitsubishi engine has done great without honing after a rebuild at + 180K.
I understand. The manufacturere knows best. You're right. No one should make absolutes w/ the above article... But, concerning the 4G63 block, mine did great w/ an above spec compression test. I rolled the dice for everyone and you can make absolutes w/ my results.
Nevertheless, it is good to have both sides to the story in one thread... This encourages productive results for sure.

Click to expand...

What might be interesting to know is what machine shops do when they do not bore a block but are asked to install pistons and rings either new or reuse old pistons. I can't imagine you would ever receive a block back and not have the cylinders deglazed.

As a professional I must accept your judgment call as it worked for you; however; it is nothing I will endorse as general course of action. I have to stand behind and guarantee my work unlike working at home who you know where to place blame when something goes south. Posting on the internet brings the responsibility that due dilligance must be used when offering advice and this is more like a soap testomonial than an absolute.

As for having higher than specified compression this could be accounted for with having the head machined either by you or a previous owner. Not all machine shops stamp what has been removed so unless you actually measured the thickness or CCed the combustion chamber you really never know. Even factory rebuilt exchange engines replaced under warranty could include resurfaced heads.

I've fitted every type of ring combination on both gas and diesel and never had a comeback whether I used sandpaper or a variety of hones as warranted.

In all cases it would be advised to measure ring gap at various levels of swept area. This could influence decisions whether using an abrasive or chemicals to remove the slick glaze. Not removing a glaze on a well used engine just runs counter to everything I've done over the last 40+ years whether I reused the old pistons and rings on a minor rebuild. Until I see sufficient data from various sources and a complete read of what a student offered as a teacher's handout will I remain a skeptic. I turned down a job offer from LA Trade Tech some 3 decades ago because they did NOT teach anything about "import" cars because Detroit contributed to their programs with engines, transmissions, tools etc. Overhead cams didn't exist so it would seem and neither did front wheel drive. As the woman said to her husband when they pulled into the wrong shop entrance after glancing over at a hubcap that had RR "is that some new Rambler"... On another thread here, a student reported that his teacher stated an alcohol fuel blend could not pre-detonate.

Cheers,
GTM

bryanwheat said:

I havn't came across a set of cast rings for the motor, i use all speed pro, nippon racing, and total seal rings. Cast rings are trash, not even worth the money, especually for a boosted vehicle, plus you will end up with alot more ring of a ridge at the top of the cylinder after some miles, oposed to having no ridge with moly rings.

Click to expand...

Bull!!!!

Cast rings are factory standard for every boosted vehicle I've ever owned/modified. Turboford. GN. DSM. Daytona.

Further, I've always replaced old cast w/ new cast. My cast ringed dsm ran 30 psi w/ fp2xs on an 18G last season. My compression always was 150 psi across the board. After 189,000 miles, that's excellent considering this car was at the track all it's life w/ it's previous owners.

My Turboford sees 25+ psi on a t3/t4. My fathers GN sees 29 psi on his t3/t4. All cast. All still holds great compression. All still do NOT need to be reamed. I've had the heads off of all these cars more than I can count.

Guys around here have gone FAR over 600 whp with cast rings when running forged internals.

You will NOT end up with a ridge with cast before moly, or chrome rings. The opposite is more true. Harder rings do more damage.

IMHO, moly or chrome rings are for rally. Constantly dirty environments. But even then, enough dirt ingested to damage the rings will muff your turbo regardless. I keep my baby on the street. . . .For now.

GTM said:

What might be interesting to know is what machine shops do when they do not bore a block but are asked to install pistons and rings either new or reuse old pistons. I can't imagine you would ever receive a block back and not have the cylinders deglazed.

As a professional I must accept your judgment call as it worked for you; however; it is nothing I will endorse as general course of action. I have to stand behind and guarantee my work unlike working at home who you know where to place blame when something goes south. Posting on the internet brings the responsibility that due dilligance must be used when offering advice and this is more like a soap testomonial than an absolute.

As for having higher than specified compression this could be accounted for with having the head machined either by you or a previous owner. Not all machine shops stamp what has been removed so unless you actually measured the thickness or CCed the combustion chamber you really never know. Even factory rebuilt exchange engines replaced under warranty could include resurfaced heads.

I've fitted every type of ring combination on both gas and diesel and never had a comeback whether I used sandpaper or a variety of hones as warranted.

In all cases it would be advised to measure ring gap at various levels of swept area. This could influence decisions whether using an abrasive or chemicals to remove the slick glaze. Not removing a glaze on a well used engine just runs counter to everything I've done over the last 40+ years whether I reused the old pistons and rings on a minor rebuild. Until I see sufficient data from various sources and a complete read of what a student offered as a teacher's handout will I remain a skeptic. I turned down a job offer from LA Trade Tech some 3 decades ago because they did NOT teach anything about "import" cars because Detroit contributed to their programs with engines, transmissions, tools etc. Overhead cams didn't exist so it would seem and neither did front wheel drive. As the woman said to her husband when they pulled into the wrong shop entrance after glancing over at a hubcap that had RR "is that some new Rambler"... On another thread here, a student reported that his teacher stated an alcohol fuel blend could not pre-detonate.

Cheers,
GTM

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Thats cool. I understand. And I agree that it would go against your experience. Probably even your conscience!

I really don't have any more proof except for my personal rebuilds... You know that I'm alone with this assertion w/ the 4G63. I'm willing to accept that.

Your experience should be taken as accepted theory. Mine should be taken w/ caution. For everyone. ALWAYS, spec your block before reringing at least. I have had success w/out honing. But many have had success w/ honing.

No matter what course I've taken, I respect your replies and your personal and profesional input. Thanx.

dsm-onster said:

Bull!!!!

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Glad you said it and not me.

Wonder if he would be surprised to learn Ferrari used them for decades even after chromemolly. Alfa Romeo had a 700hp 1500cc engine in 1939 that used cast iron rings... I just love it when someone gets out the driveway broom and starts painting themselves into a corner.

Cheers,
GTM