I am at the crossroads where the next couple of purchases will determine the path I head down in terms of turbo size. I am purchasing a AFCII next week along with a 255 Walbro and I am buying my buddy's Greddy FMIC with all the IC piping. I need to address my fuel needs from the point of what turbo Im getting. I searched some threads looking for comparisions in FWD cars of EVO16g and 50 trims. I dont wanna buy the 16g only to become unhappy with the power in 6 months. I was aiming for 330-350whp on 93 octane with spool between 3500-3800 rpms. I want something with good pump gas potential. I want a great power band from a 30-40mph roll. Any feedback from both EVO16g and 50 trim guys would be great.
Thanks in Advance

The Evo 3 will hit full spool around 3100ish which is kinda early for a FWD, also with ALL the bolt-ons and great tuning might be able to make those power numbers. It is a great turbo and does pull really hard and in my opion is the perfect street turbo for your average car.

My t04e 50 trim hits 22psi by 3800, a t04b should spool a little bit quicker. The 50 trim is awesome and pulls alot harder up top, the lag is noticeable put it's not that bad. A 50 trim should be able to put down those numbers without cams and stuff like that.

On my car switching from a evo 3 to a 50 trim running the exact same setup and boost I picked up 4 tenth's and 2mph, I also had a big boost leak with the 50 trim.

I say go for the 50 trim, it will be much easier to get your goal and you won't have to upgrade twice.

I was very happy with ym 50trim on FWD. Problem is that its mainly efficient at 19-20+ PSI, thats where you will really feel it. A 16G is capable of being friendly at many boost levels.

If you're only looking for 330-350 whp and the car will be more than 85% street driven I would choose the EVOIII 16G. It's as close to the perfect street turbo aas there is for our cars and if you want a bit more power later you can always add a set of cams.

I have an FPgreen and I get 20 psi between 3800-4000 RPM and when boost kicks in the car turns into a monster but in alot of part throttle street situations I get caught waiting for boost and when it comes it's too much and too late. I don't regret getting the green but if you you aren't on top of the situation slower cars can get ahead of you (temporarily of course ).

Check my mods list, I have a FWD too. I originally built the car and installed a ported 18G running 19psi. Honestly, I loved the car and its road manners were nothing short of fun. Spool was very quick, full boost before 3600rpms. After a chance encounter with a modded Trans Am WS6 I wanted more power. Realizing that 300whp was going to be around my limit on pump gas and that is with every other supporting mod, I switched over to a 54trim. Now the car absolutely hauls balls but spool right now is full at about 4400rpms. So I can drive off boost and have mild manners but I honestly always liked to be able to get quick boost for shooting around town and now its not as attainable.

So it retrospect, with the 18G the car was very quick, now with the 54 trim it is very fast. Big difference and it all depends on what you want out of the car. If you don't race much on the freeway or over 100mph then maybe the Evo will be better for you but if you want to roll with the big dogs around town, then the 50trim is probably better. Not to mention, the SCM50 has great pump gas numbers and with tuning you can get full boost before 4K rpms.

Another route you may look at going and it could net you a great car, would be to get something like the 18G (slightly bigger then the Evo16G and on sale at forced performance right now for $600) and then add some 264/272 cams and a heavily ported head and push the 18G to its limits and see how you do with the added flow of the head. I swapped in my cams at the same time of the 54 trim install but I think where the 16/18G falls off up top of the rpm band can also be attributed to the smallish stock cams running out of breath which the cams could help.

Let me know what you think....

heavyD said:

If you're only looking for 330-350 whp and the car will be more than 85% street driven I would choose the EVOIII 16G. It's as close to the perfect street turbo aas there is for our cars and if you want a bit more power later you can always add a set of cams.

I have an FPgreen and I get 20 psi between 3800-4000 RPM and when boost kicks in the car turns into a monster but in alot of part throttle street situations I get caught waiting for boost and when it comes it's too much and too late. I don't regret getting the green but if you you aren't on top of the situation slower cars can get ahead of you (temporarily of course ).

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Now street driven to me means pump gas, without every other supporting mod available including cams/headwork/etc.. 350whp is not a feasible goal for the Evo16G, maybe on race gas. So I would say 300whp but most likely high 200's on 91 octane.

I guess the overall desire is to have a very balanced car built for whats it good at. Im not the track guy. I enjoy going out to long roads and just blasting. I have an WRX...so if I every feel like a quick powerband, I just switch cars. I guess I intended the DSM to more of highway monster hence the FWD. My friend has a 95 with a 60-1 and the topend is incredible but a tad laggy for my taste. I mean with an EVO16g and some cams could I maintain a streetable a 330whp? I want the real world power not just cranking the boost for a dyno run. There will always be someone faster. I have waffled back and forth. All my local friends so that their DSM's where more enjoyable on the 16/18g's. They said they could actually open the car up on a more frequent basis instead of needing a ton road with a larger turbo. I know what a built 450whp 60-1 DSM feels like. Too many choices can be bad.. ...I mean with the Rex there are really only so many bolton turbos with out major mods.

VRMAN said:

Now street driven to me means pump gas, without every other supporting mod available including cams/headwork/etc.. 350whp is not a feasible goal for the Evo16G, maybe on race gas. So I would say 300whp but most likely high 200's on 91 octane.

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You can't have a street driven car with cams or headwork? Please explain. T28's, even the 14B can do high 200's on pump gas with the correct mods & tuning and the the EVO III is a better turbo than both of those.

i made 289/304 at the wheels on unleaded with a 14b and cams. I'd say stick with the EVO3 and if you want more, add some FP1s. It'll make the power you're looking for and be alot more linear, which will help on a FWD. Don't listen to the misinformation that a bigger turbo with more lag will help traction on a FWD car. A big turbo hits harder, which tends to spin the tires instantly.

I would like to call myself pretty knowledgable when it comes to the e316g. When looking at making good power numbers from that specific turbo you should really look at what the max boost level your fuel system can hold. I'm very confident pushing my e316g to 24psi because I have all the mods to support it.

When dealing with anyturbo the most important things to look at should be flow.
How well is the fuel system flowing?
How well is the air flowing?
How well is the exhaust flowing?
By addressing all these things with the e316g you should be a happy camper.

If you have any questions feel free to pm me, and hopefully my mod list should give ppl clues as-to how my e316g turbo performs.

wrx2dsm said:

I mean with an EVO16g and some cams could I maintain a streetable a 330whp?.

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I would say go with a 50 trim. I have seen a 2 2gs with 50 trims hit 300+ at 19 psi. Granted spool isnt going to be there like the E316G, but whats an extra 500 rpms? But they also both had upgraded cams, one with stock 1g head with 272s(320@19psi), the other with 1g built head, comp cams, and SMIM(400hp@19 psi). Both made those runs on 92 octane gas.

91gvr4 said:

I would say go with a 50 trim. I have seen a 2 2gs with 50 trims hit 300+ at 19 psi. Granted spool isnt going to be there like the E316G, but whats an extra 500 rpms? But they also both had upgraded cams, one with stock 1g head with 272s(320@19psi), the other with 1g built head, comp cams, and SMIM(400hp@19 psi). Both made those runs on 92 octane gas.

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Have to agree here,

The Evo3 16G for the *most* part on *most* cars will achieve results somewhere between 285-310WHP depending on the tune and boost without Cams/Head Work/Race Gas, with Cams you'll see about a 15whp gain on pump gas... For what its worth, why not just go with a 50 Trim? you should easily put down 330 at 20psi or so, depending on the tune. I mean the Evo is a proven capable turbo, but few people have gotten in the 330-350WHP range without race gas, where as the 50 Trim is almost garanteed to land you a spot in that category with the support mods.

I have an Evo3, but personally its driven every day, and i was not looking for much more then 300WHP! Not sure what its got, still in the process of buying parts, gotta get me a FMIC and some Cams before i hit the Dyno...

heavyD said:

You can't have a street driven car with cams or headwork? Please explain.

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No you misread. I meant that even with cams and headwork you probably won't hit 350whp with an Evo16G.

After reading your goals and preferences with the car, I definately say get the 50 trim now. The 60-1 is VERY laggy and doesn't react well to pump gas. With the 50 trim you'll get a very nice power curve, more power than the 16G but not near as much lag as the 60-1. Traction will ALWAYS be a problem with FWD. I put on some sticky tires and polyurethane motormounts (huge improvement) and it reacted much better. But anyways, the 50 trim sounds like just what you need. That will be fun to have a WRX for your AWD launches and quick around town ride and the GS-T for nasty up top power. I definatley recommend adding some cams in there too so you can really reap the benefits the top end of the 50 trim has to offer. Look into some COMP or Forced Performance "street cams".

For reference, my car made 360whp with my setup @ 24psi. Everything Corvetteboy said was on point, good post.

VRMAN said:

No you misread. I meant that even with cams and headwork you probably won't hit 350whp with an Evo16G.

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That's not true. With a healthy engine, full supporting mods, and a compitant tuner, 350whp is *gasp* easy on the evo16G. Check out my mod list. Sure, I'd make much more than 350whp on a larger turbo and my current supporting mods but I'm spoiled with my 24psi spool at 3000rpm. I plan on converting to AWD (like every Spyder own claims ) and then I'll mess around with bigger turbos but traction is non-existant how it is.

Another thing to think about, the whole pump gas, race gas argument isn't applicable anymore with alcohol injection becoming so popular. I run 24psi daily on 91 octane w/ ethanol/H20 injection. Haven't even tried 100+ octane in this car, no need for it yet. Pick a turbo that gets the spool and power level you want without completely maxing out it capabilities. Sounds to me either turbo would get you 330whp and both will get you a spool no later than 3800rpm. The evo3 will spool at least 500rpm faster though.

Yes, with *FULL* supporting mods like you said, it is attainable. But with less hard parts and similar spool the 50 trim will get you there earlier so why not go that route? Not to mention his top end will be far superior on the 50trim. I've owned both turbos (basically) so I know how both act.

Also, the pump gas/race gas element is a very big part of the equation. Just because alchy/watter injection is becoming more popular doesn't mean anything really. 98% of DSMers still aren't running that system. So my vote for the 50 trim stands. Easier to get the bigger numbers from and better top end potential where you'll want your FWD to be anyways.

*This was NOT a bash towards 98spydert whatsoever, his post was good.

If it's so easy show me a few people making 350+ with the Evo 3 and pump gas...

VRMAN said:

Yes, with *FULL* supporting mods like you said, it is attainable. But with less hard parts and similar spool the 50 trim will get you there earlier so why not go that route? Not to mention his top end will be far superior on the 50trim. I've owned both turbos (basically) so I know how both act.

Also, the pump gas/race gas element is a very big part of the equation. Just because alchy/watter injection is becoming more popular doesn't mean anything really. 98% of DSMers still aren't running that system. So my vote for the 50 trim stands. Easier to get the bigger numbers from and better top end potential where you'll want your FWD to be anyways.

*This was NOT a bash towards 98spydert whatsoever, his post was good.

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You're right, it takes a lot of work to get that out of the evo3, I was mainly pointing out it's very, very realistic. Like I said, I'll be moving on myself but that turbo is fantastic and I've loved using it. And the alcohol thing just means it's not impossible to use these large turbos on daily drivers. I've owned my car for 2 years and never taken it to the track, yet run a boost level most only run with pump gas for special track occasions.

Canadian TSI, search yourself, I'm not a babysitter. SBR made over 400 to the wheels (race gas), I don't see how you can doubt capable people making 50 less than that using an alcohol system. Shapegsx ran into the 11s on that little thing as well as a few other people. Not to be mean, but just because you're stuck in the 2xxwhp range on a E covered 50 trim doesn't mean the rest of the DSM world doesn't know what they're doing.

I don't think this should really become an all out we think /know this turbo is better then the other thread. First off I don't drive a fwd I drive an awd so when Placing a post I have to also consider that the thread starters car is much lighter then mine but has and will continue to have traction issues. I would recommend an LSD with whatever turbo purchase to alleviate dilemmas ,because to be quite honest with you theirs not much else that can be done. My good friends turbo tegra runs 9S another's civic runs 10's and their all fwd , yes they accomplish these times with slicks but, keep in mind their cars as much as they would like them to be are no longer street driven unless money is on the table. Too much boost on a big turbo in any daily driven car is not a good thing, and I know 80% percent of you tuners reading this already know why so I wont explain.

When dealing with turbos the basic heart of our cars you have to be very VERY careful because you tend to change how the car responds and ultimately its characteristics.
You cannot look at total power nor flow charts because you need to really apply those numbers to realistic scenarios. I'm tired of reading no go to this turbo because the top end will be all that, most cars unless their seriously stroked or heavy with discplacment wont see the above rpm band regularly. The reason being a v8 with gob's of torque will stay in gear longer during daily driving and has a relatively short rev range where as a civic can go up-to 12 grand an up. Most cars can only make use of the top end in race applications. I never see more then 5 grand on the street nor should I .

I'm not going to write a story but I will state this my e316g makes power but I'm to stubborn to dyno it until certain parts are are treated and replaced. Am I 300aw-hp plus? damn right I am and I'll be more then happy to show it this Saturday at Cayuga (Canadian sti) if you wanna come and chill and have some fun.

Again nobody will ever see the true potential of any turbo unless the flow is properly looked after. Again fuel, air and exhaust flow, by relieving these restrictions our cars whether they be awd or fwd will make more then enough decent power. Now how many tuners decide to follow my words of tuning and spend the few grand it will take to actually modify these areas b4 looking into bigger turbos is another dilemma I really don't care to dive into.

Choose wisely but choose knowing theirs always someone else faster then you. Unless you have an extra 50 or 60 grand lying around to play with that you wont need for your lively hood and you would like an ego boost then by all means go balls out. Until then remember the stop signs ,the red lights , the traffic blitzes ,the radar guns ,and all those beautiful things that keep our driving habits somewhat under control.

Be real to yourself and buy considering what you really want. As far as I'm concerned I love being able to see the looks on the faces of the guys driving the Audi tt's and the vipers and vet's when I pass them on the outside and my car Say's psssshhhhhhhh as I go by.

Revolution,

While on the topic of the nicely responding e316G, how did it react to the tubular SS manifold? A friend of mine might be getting rid of his and I could pick it up but it'd be nice to here from someone with the same turbo and similar mods. Right now I get full 24psi at 3000-3200rpm depending on gear. Think it would increase beyond that? Or be more responsive in the middle of a gear?

To honestly answer your question my spool time at 24 psi is just about the same as yours but keep in mind my exhaust housing had some work done to it . I have received a few Pm's and will say this right out in public. Plz don't ask me how long or how many passes my turbine housing went through ,because some things I choose to keep secret.

When looking at the SS tubular manifold you have to realize that the exhaust gasses will travel a longer path vs. a cast Mani but it more than makes up for it in the way those gasses are directed. To basically put it because the gasses aren't as turbulent when hitting the turbine blades the turbo will spool faster even though the gasses are traveling a longer distance. I would say anywhere from 200 to 400rpm faster than a cast manifold in any gear. This more direct flow approach will become more evident as you climb the rpm band because the harder the motor works the more turbulent the gasses would become when slamming into each other in a cast collector , take a look at any cast Mani and you'll see what I mean.This wont become an issue with tubular manifolds because the gasses are directed to-wards the blades and not a wall.

And no my kou manifold hasn't cracked or warped yet. I will not say that all ssautochrome mani's are bad but if I were you I would buy it off of koumotorsports, just because I know I got a good Mani from them and wouldn't want anybody buying a lemon from some other vendor because they think it's the exact same one as mine.

A SS tubular exhaust manifold teamed up with my magnus sheetmetal intake makes for a serious team that makes them selves known b4 and after 4000rpm. Now I'm looking at jet coating my manifold exhaust housing and 02 just for the extra 100 rpm worth of spool not to mention more power on tap.

I hope I answered your questions in regards to the e316g.

I wouldn't risk my money on any of those cheap manifolds, I was mainly referring to the tubular design. Regardless, if I were to pick up 400rpm spool time, I'd be at 24psi well before 3K and that doesn't sound possible Would be amazing if it happened though. If I go that route, I'll be sure to post results.

Unless you are AWD then I can't see the benefit of that much boost that early in the rpm band. Its going to just equal smoking tires. On an AWD though, that could equate to a TON of stoplight kills. I will say with the 18G driving around town and having good lower end power was nice. I am pretty untuned right now so boost is pretty laggy.

VRMAN said:

Unless you are AWD then I can't see the benefit of that much boost that early in the rpm band. Its going to just equal smoking tires. On an AWD though, that could equate to a TON of stoplight kills. I will say with the 18G driving around town and having good lower end power was nice. I am pretty untuned right now so boost is pretty laggy.

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Yeah the stupid fast spool in 1st and 2nd equals nothing but tire spin. 3rd it breaks loose a little bit on the right surfaces. The AWD swap would be very nice

I have to agree with you ,my exhaust manifold was a very cheap buy ,and probably the best bang for my buck .

Dont get me wrong my car doesnt respond as quick as when it had the t2small but im not complaining with what I have now.