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2G Car Tries to Die When Push in Clutch

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jukematt

10+ Year Contributor
291
38
Jun 13, 2009
Portland Metro, Oregon
I have been trying to diagnose this issue for over a week now but becoming increasingly stumped. I've read countless threads on the same issue but haven't found any that apply to me.

Car sits idling fully warmed up in neutral. I push in the clutch. I do not try and put it in gear, just push the clutch in while in neutral, and the RPMs drop and the car tries to die.

If the engine is cold and I start it up, pushing in the clutch causes the RPMs to SLIGHTLY fluctuate but nothing like when it is fully warmed up.

Background:
A week after I get the car up and running with a new engine (read my profile for that story), the car is running smooth without any issues. I take it into a local car audio shop to install new speakers and a new alarm system. All good, no issues. 3 days later I go back in to have them install a new amp, subwoofer, and a new deck. They call me up telling my car is ready. I go in, start up the car, the guy shows me the new audio system. When I'm ready to go, I push in the clutch to shift into gear and the car immediately dies. I start her up again, let her idle for a second, seemingly no issues, I push the clutch in, the car immediately dies. I go back in the store and tell the guy at the counter who has been my primary contact and he is baffled. He talks to the installer, who messes with it for a bit before taking it into the back to check everything for around 40 minutes or so and finds nothing. They lead me back there and I don't' see anything out of the ordinary. We try a few things like disconnecting the power cable from the battery for the new amp, checking voltage, hooking up a device that checks if the battery or alternator are bad, etc. and can't find anything that is causing it.

Thankfully, I live only a couple of miles away from the store so I limp back. I think the car is trying to compensate since now in Neutral idling it doesn't immediately die anymore when pushing in the clutch, but it heavily bogs down, surges a little, then tries to die if I keep holding it in. But when driving, RPMs drop quicker at higher RPMs when pushing in the clutch so it tries to die every time.

I don't know if it is just a coincidence that this happened after a new amp/sub/deck install or if it is something they did. I don't know what all they touched when working on the car and naturally I'm sure they aren't going to blame themselves unless I find it is something they did. But with disconnecting power from the amp and the deck, and still having the same issue, I just don't know.

Self Checks, some after reading the forums:
Years ago I unplugged the switch on the clutch pedal that prevents you from starting the car with the clutch out. Still unplugged.

I did another boost leak test but it seems to be the same as before (I did one before I first started the new engine). I have the known leak at the throttle body (I think I need to rebuild the thing). There was a minor leak at the stock fuel pressure regulator I didn't notice before, not where it bolts to the fuel rail, but the regulator itself where the "hat" portion sort of folds over. I put a bunch of RTV over it as a temporary fix and let it sit for two days before starting again just to determine if that could cause the issue. No change.

I checked my ISC and it's good, I repeatedly checked my vacuum hoses to determine if there was one they bumped and disconnected or something. I have never tuned my car in the years I've had it so it has the stock tune as far as I'm aware.

I blow checked my PCV valve before installing the valve cover on my new engine but have not checked it again since the issue started. One thing I did with the new engine is install a check valve and a metal/plastic fuel filter as a catch can in between the PCV valve and intake manifold (credit to an old thread on here that details different catch can setups), along with a Mishimoto catch can between the valve cover and air intake. But both were done prior to the new engine starting. To rule out any new issues there, I bypassed both those mods and hooked up a direct hose for each like stock. No change.

What could possibly even cause the RPMs to drop when idling in Neutral?! Maybe there is something I don't understand about our clutch system but there shouldn't be any load on the engine when pushing in the clutch in Neutral right?

I'm at a loss. Help? Please and thank you!
 
Show me a current picture of your entire engine bay. I just want to see if there are any missing vacuum lines

Part 2, check the ground connections on the negative terminal. You should have one wire coming up from the starter to the negative terminal, and another from the negative terminal to the chassis on the firewall. There should also be a ground strap from the intake manifold behind the throttle cable going to the firewall

Double check the areas the installer would have messed with, you may even have to remove the lower interior trim under the steering wheel to see where he wired the alarm. Did they install a remote start?
 
This has happened twice to me so far. Both times the problem was caused by broken springs in the clutch disc.

Either they hot rodded your shit or it was just unlucky timing but either way you’re going to have to pull the trans and inspect. Sorry for the bad news
Well I was going to pull the transmission again anyway this summer to have it rebuilt but I'm kind of saving that for a last resort.
Doubtful. It has the revised thrust bearings and the engine has like 50 miles on it. That is one other thing I did not check because the instructions I've found checking for end play are confusing.
Show me a current picture of your entire engine bay. I just want to see if there are any missing vacuum lines

Part 2, check the ground connections on the negative terminal. You should have one wire coming up from the starter to the negative terminal, and another from the negative terminal to the chassis on the firewall. There should also be a ground strap from the intake manifold behind the throttle cable going to the firewall

Double check the areas the installer would have messed with, you may even have to remove the lower interior trim under the steering wheel to see where he wired the alarm. Did they install a remote start?
Ground connections are good. The the one coming off the starter bolt at the transmission connects just under the Kicker fuse they installed on the firewall by the battery.

I tried combing through everywhere they touched that I could think of. They did install a remote start but that was all functioning normally for those three days before heading back in for the amp/sub/deck install. I did have them enable the option to turn on/off the auto door locks and valet mode but the rest of the alarm system with remote start was working for those few days without issue.

Pictures attached.

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What clutch are you running? Was it new with the engine rebuild? What about the TO bearing, was it new? Do you hear any odd noises from the bellhousing area? Does the clutch disk properly disengage? Maybe you have something binding up or your flywheel or pressure plate bolts have come loose.

I hate to say it but I wouldn't discount engine failure because it has 50 miles. The first 1000-2000 miles are critical. Have you checked your oil for anything shiny? How's your oil pressure?
 
What clutch are you running? Was it new with the engine rebuild? What about the TO bearing, was it new? Do you hear any odd noises from the bellhousing area? Does the clutch disk properly disengage? Maybe you have something binding up or your flywheel or pressure plate bolts have come loose.

I hate to say it but I wouldn't discount engine failure because it has 50 miles. The first 1000-2000 miles are critical. Have you checked your oil for anything shiny? How's your oil pressure?

Clutch components are all reused. I updated my profile before posting this. It's an ACT 2100 WITH XACT Streetlite Flywheel. Since I intend to drop the Trans in the summer I was going to replace it along with a new TOB and fork. I did have to get a new clutch master and slave cyl with the rebuild.

It shifts fine aside from attempting to die. I would suspect a TOB if the car tried to die only when in gear but when I'm just sitting in neutral and it happens...

I'm following MAPerformance's engine break-in procedure:


So I changed my oil and filter for the first time at 41 miles which was the day before bringing it back in to have this amp, etc. work done. There were a few tiny specks on the magnetic oil drain plug but nothing to be concerned about.

I had ported my OFH for this build since my last engine would bury the 100 psi needle on my OP gauge on cold starts. Now OP is ~60 when cold and ~20 when hot. Of course it dips with the RPMs with the clutch in when the car tries to die now.

EDIT:
I don't hear anything odd in the bellhousing area at idle. When I get off work today I'll check while my friend pushes in the clutch.

EDIT 2:
No sound changes in the bellhousing area while pushing in the clutch.
 
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What do you have hooked to your pcv hose tubing? You should not have a plastic fuel filter in the hose

Also there is a yellow wire tapped coming out of the ignition coil, that wire gets its own loom and goes to the battery?

Also you might want to double check the egr hoses under the throttle body to see if one of them came loose when the alarm horn was put back there. It also looks like there is alot of extra wires and tubes right next to the throttle cable, have you checked to make sure the throttle cable and throttle body can fully close and isnt getting hung up on

Your ac condenser fan isn't oem, what is it? Can you also check the wires for the 02 sensor, looks like they also rewired your primary power wire for the alternator
 
What do you have hooked to your pcv hose tubing? You should not have a plastic fuel filter in the hose

Also there is a yellow wire tapped coming out of the ignition coil, that wire gets its own loom and goes to the battery?

Also you might want to double check the egr hoses under the throttle body to see if one of them came loose when the alarm horn was put back there. It also looks like there is alot of extra wires and tubes right next to the throttle cable, have you checked to make sure the throttle cable and throttle body can fully close and isnt getting hung up on

Your ac condenser fan isn't oem, what is it? Can you also check the wires for the 02 sensor, looks like they also rewired your primary power wire for the alternator
I put in a cheap plastic fuel filter right on top of the IM but it would compress under vacuum so I got a different one with a metal top and put it away from the heat. I'm using it as a catch can. I've also seen others use them for the line between the valve cover and air intake but I have a Mishimoto catch can there instead. I set it all up to have the "Improved Stock PCV" in the PCV thread below so I have a check valve there as well to prevent the filter from building pressure under boost, which you can also make out in the picture above:
The 4G63T PCV System
But that isn't what is causing my issue since I did that before they installed any sound system and alarm. But running out of options and just to rule it out, I did put it back to stock with a hose running straight to the IM from the PCV and it didn't fix my issue.

That yellow wire was there on my old Viper alarm system I had too. I'm guessing it is a fuel kill in addition to the starter kill built into the system. It doesn't connect to the battery, it meets up with the loom for the new hood switch there and enters through the firewall on the passenger side of the battery. But again, I drove the car for two days after that was all installed and didn't have any issues.

I know there are a lot of vacuum lines connecting to the back of the throttle body/IM. I checked and rechecked those and can't find any disconnected. I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding the extra wires and tubes next to the throttle cable. Those are all stock except for the ziptied thing between my brake fluid reservoir and IM ground strap. That is my WBO2 cable.

Good eye on the AC condenser fan. So years ago I had the front heat shield off for a while and it warped the fan like crazy. So I went to the junkyard and found this. If I recall correctly, I think it is an AC fan from a 420A. It hooks up and works fine aside from the bottom tabs not aligning correctly to the radiator.

Now that I have an FP manifold, I got this heat shield from ExtremePSI. I routed my O2 sensor wire similar to my buddy's 2G who has a brushed heat shield. Basically it runs down along the AC lines and comes back up right under that left "L" shaped turbo coolant feed hose to keep it away from heat.

With my last engine, there were a few cables that were frayed or damaged in some way. The one going to the firewall from the negative battery terminal was the worst. I upgraded that and the one going to the strut with 0 AWG. I think I used 1 or 2 AWG for the ground to the transmission starter bolt. I also read at the time that it's also a good idea to upgrade the cable from the alternator to the battery for a better connection, so I did. That was all carryover with the new engine.
 
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whomever assembled the entire engine, do they know how to properly?
Kar King in CA. They were one of the recommended vendors on here. Read the story in my profile. But the car ran fine for a week. It only started having this issue after the amp/sub/deck install.

I know these AutoZone alternators have a teeny tiny bolt that could be used as a ground which I didn't hook up when I installed the new engine. I could also upgrade the ground strap from the IM to the firewall if I want to give it a bit better grounding. But considering my car ran fine until the car audio stuff, it's hard to think that would be necessary now.
 
In your original post you said this started immediately after the alarm install, again the other variable is the wiring for the alarm that is under the dash. That every time you are pushing the clutch pedal its pulling an ignition wire from the alarm and shutting off the car. Especially since the old alarm literally has a tap into your ignition

Pull the lower dash panel, I bet there is a wire under your clutch pedal, or getting stuck in return spring, thats killing your ignition when you push the pedal
 
In your original post you said this started immediately after the alarm install, again the other variable is the wiring for the alarm that is under the dash. That every time you are pushing the clutch pedal its pulling an ignition wire from the alarm and shutting off the car. Especially since the old alarm literally has a tap into your ignition

Pull the lower dash panel, I bet there is a wire under your clutch pedal, or getting stuck in return spring, thats killing your ignition when you push the pedal
Sorry I know my post was long and I appreciate you trying to help, just wanted to make sure the facts were clear so you can help me: my OP stated that after the alarm and speakers were installed, "All good, no issues. 3 days later I go back in..." so no issues after the alarm/speaker install. The issue started after the amp/sub/deck install.

I will check the wiring up there tomorrow, thank you for trying to help so far! I hope the problem is electrical because if I can find the problem it should be an easy fix.
 
Sorry I know my post was long and I appreciate you trying to help, just wanted to make sure the facts were clear so you can help me: my OP stated that after the alarm and speakers were installed, "All good, no issues. 3 days later I go back in..." so no issues after the alarm/speaker install. The issue started after the amp/sub/deck install.

I will check the wiring up there tomorrow, thank you for trying to help so far! I hope the problem is electrical because if I can find the problem it should be an easy fix.

No worries

It could be something simple like the alternator overdrawing, but before it gets to the point of removing the alternator belt is think the best bet is to start with the electrical.

I know the alarm is not new but to run the wires something may have been moved under the kick panel where the alarm would have been installed. Maybe adding a power source to the same cable that is a power source for the alarm has put tension on a wire by the pedal

My primary thought is when the battery was removed to run the amp power wire, something was tugged (a vacuum line) when it shouldnt have been so I would start at the battery and inspect that area

Second thoughts would be to remove the center console and inspect for wiring issues, they like to use crimp connectors at some stereo shops which can cause some issues

Next thing would be to video the car under the hood, and then watch for any movement when you press the clutch pedal and the car dies. If there is too much tension on the electrical connections you could be losing connection to the cam sensor or that ignition wire when the clutch is pressed
 
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It may be weird, but a video of the instrument cluster and then one of the engine bay whilst someone pushes in the clutch may be helpful. Sometimes clues are in the not-immediately-obvious things
 
It may be weird, but a video of the instrument cluster and then one of the engine bay whilst someone pushes in the clutch may be helpful. Sometimes clues are in the not-immediately-obvious things

Yeah, having other experienced eyes always helps. Even if you ask a friend or a wife they may not know what they are looking at. You can also see for yourself

And you could video the harmonic balancer to see if it has any visible movement when the clutch is depressed, and thats causing the crank sensor to lose signal 🥴
 
Friday it got dark too quick and was raining so I spent a bunch of time today on this pulling my battery and checking for any disconnected vacuum hoses, pulling back my carpet and following all the wires I could find, pulling out the new deck looking for any messed up wiring, checking all around my clutch pedal... I can't find anything that sticks out to me.

I suppose they could have nicked a part of the wiring harness somewhere but who knows where that might be. I'd have to spend many more hours trying to find something like that. Deck wiring is naturally a rat's nest behind it but nothing seemingly wrong.

The only thing I haven't double checked is all the wiring going to the amp itself. I'll see about that tomorrow.

Attached is an image of my clutch pedal. The only wire remotely close is the ground wire for my aftermarket gauges which is that red wire to that nut.I haven't put the battery back in and tried starting again but I doubt anything I did today could have fixed it.

Here is a video a couple of days ago sitting in the car looking at the gauges. I'll try and get one tomorrow looking at the engine bay while pushing in the clutch. I apologize for the shakes. I think I was trying to rest it on the steering wheel.

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Its possible that one of those goons cant drive stick shift and stalled your car multiple times and tore up something in the clutch itself. This sounds strictly mechanical to me, check your bellhousing bolts for tightness also, other than that maybe a flywheel coming loose or crankwalk as said.
 
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Its possible that one of those goons cant drive stick shift and stalled your car multiple times and tore up something in the clutch itself. This sounds strictly mechanical to me, check your bellhousing bolts for tightness also, other than that maybe a flywheel coming loose or crankwalk as said.
That would SUCK! I also have never checked end play so I'd have to search around. I think I will need to run to Harbor Freight to get a dial indicator. I just figured it would be highly unlikely with less than 50 miles on the engine.
 
I’d check the end play just to cross that off the list and have that peace of mind. Not to hit below the belt but it has often been said over the years to stay away from the mass engine “remanufacturers” and I’ve seen the name “Kar King” on here before as being notorious for selling customers garbage that’s rebuilt not in the least bit correctly. Wouldn’t shock me in the least bit if they assembled it with end play and basically sold you a crank walking engine right out of the box.
 
What about this red ground wire that's attached to a rusty point on the metal housing on the clutch LOL. The wire looks bent and the housing is rusty and the bolt looks loose

The ring connector under the bolt definitely looks deformed, like its not making good contact

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It’s probably sending electricity through the clutch master bracket, into the reservoir, into the clutch fluid, down the line to the clutch slave cylinder, thus electrifying the clutch fork, thus causing the car to die when you push the fork because it can’t handle all that electricity
 
What about this red ground wire that's attached to a rusty point on the metal housing on the clutch LOL. The wire looks bent and the housing is rusty and the bolt looks loose

The ring connector under the bolt definitely looks deformed, like its not making good contact

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That is the wire I mentioned in that post that is the ground wire for my aftermarket gauges. It's rusted around that area but not at the point of contact. The bolt isn't loose, maybe just an illusion, as with the ring connector itself, it isn't deformed. And I had it there before I took it into them. Since it is just the gauges, I could disconnect that and try it. I will try anything at this point.
 
It’s probably sending electricity through the clutch master bracket, into the reservoir, into the clutch fluid, down the line to the clutch slave cylinder, thus electrifying the clutch fork, thus causing the car to die when you push the fork because it can’t handle all that electricity
I dont know if its that drastic, but its the only thing I see out of the ordinary

If you remove it and nothing changes then its time to take a video of the crank pulley movement when you press the clutch. You can just set your phone on the ground under the car in selfie mode and start the car and press the clutch a few times. Technically you dont even need to start the car, just get in the car and shout "pedal down" at the camera when you know you need to check the video to see if the harmonic balancer moves out as you press the clutch
 
Alright gentlemen. So, I got a few videos to share. But first, I did disconnect that ground wire to my aftermarket gauges. Started the car - no change. I pulled my passenger seat and checked the amp. The ground wire did look a little interesting: No pic but they screwed it into the frame under the carpet between the seat and door, but it's a thin metal there and it seems the ground screw was spinning, so they put two more screws on each side of that screw to hold it down... But I disconnected power, ground, and the signal wire to the deck - no change, issue still there.

Alright onto the videos. I'm new to this, I think I read that you're supposed to measure at the flywheel while applying some torque to the bolt on the crank pulley, but since chrysler kid suggested filming the crank pulley instead while pushing in the clutch, I figured that was easier.

I see movement.

Video 1: Car off - Clutch In and Out (Close Position). I took one with the phone on the ground too but this was easier to see.
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Video 2: Car Running - Clutch In and Out. You can barely hear me yell "IN" about two seconds into the video.
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Video 3: As requested, a video of the engine bay while pressing the clutch in and out.
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Video 4: Intake "Thumping" - Unrelated? I recall my old engine doing this as well, but I don't think all of our cars do. Anyone heard this before? Note, you may not be able to hear the thumping on a phone very well since it's a deep bass-like tone.
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