Since really the only upgrade for the 2g gsx 5 speed transmissions is a dogbox, I'm buying one by the end of the year. Probably will cost me 10,000 but will end up getting it. Now the engine has these mods I'm quoting the old owner ""The motor is balanced wisco pistons 8.2-1 compression stock rod an crank arp main studs head studs and rod bolts 5 layer metal head gasket balance shaft eliminator kit 1g Cas sensor". Now I'm assuming these wiseco guess he spelled it wrong are forged. Since I'm getting a bulletproof transmission and center differential, I assume I'll get a vr4 rear differential do I need anything else aside from stronger axles and some engine upgrades like a forged crank, forged rods, to handle some serious hp? I know about dsmlink but trying to see what other supporting mods I'd need to push the car. I know a bigger fuelpump as well.

PAR makes a straight-cut synchronized gear kit, you don't need the dog box. And a VR4 diff isn't really an upgrade. This really doesn't tell us much about what kind of power or usage the car will have either.

Pretty sure he is talking about the 3000GT VR4 rear which is much stronger than the stock unit. Almost everyone recommends PPG>PAR. Any particular reason you're recommending PAR? Any fast guys using their product?

Keep in mind your dog box isn’t going to be “bulletproof”, and might not be the correct selection for a street car for what you have in mind. Yes, you can street drive on a dog box, buddy of mine did it regularly in his Summit in Washington DC traffic but takes some know how and isn’t ideal if you don’t need it. A few years back we went up to TRE to drop off buddy’s parts, Jon showed us a dog gear set out of a customers Evo who bought it with the dog box already in it and thought it’d be bulletproof for regular point a to point b driving, not knowing the precautions and driving it around point a point b like a regular manual cost him some pretty expensive parts. Again not saying you can’t, and I can’t explain exactly what you’d need to do as I’ve never owned one myself, but it’s something to research before you spend as you could potentially tear up a few thousand worth of parts and work you don’t want to re spend and you might find it’s not what you want, and me and many others here will vouch you don’t at all need it and it won’t make your transmission invincible if that’s what you have in mind.

diambo4life said:

Pretty sure he is talking about the 3000GT VR4 rear which is much stronger than the stock unit. Almost everyone recommends PPG>PAR. Any particular reason you're recommending PAR? Any fast guys using their product?

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Note that I said PAR synchro kit, not dog box. PPG doesn't make a synchro gear kit. The most street-friendly upgraded gear kit available for our cars is the PAR synchro kit, bar none. I know of several people who run it with success and no issues whatsoever.

Only thing to keep in mind is If I remember correctly the PAR still uses some OEM parts, maybe the hub/slider assembly? Don’t quote me I just remember reading an old thread on here about it, maybe @twicks69 can chime in. It looks like a fantastic gear set. I was looking at it for my next trans down the road, but it’s the same price as the PPG, so you may still spend the 10 grand but without the strength of the PPG, but obviously it would be much more street friendly and probably strong enough for 99% of us weekend warriors

1cleangsx said:

Only thing to keep in mind is If I remember correctly the PAR still uses some OEM parts, maybe the hub/slider assembly? Don’t quote me I just remember reading an old thread on here about it, maybe @twicks69 can chime in. It looks like a fantastic gear set. I was looking at it for my next trans down the road, but it’s the same price as the PPG, so you may still spend the 10 grand but without the strength of the PPG, but obviously it would be much more street friendly and probably strong enough for 99% of us weekend warriors

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They do use OEM-type hubs & sliders, and those are reproduced in Australia. Synchros are stock and still available from Mitsubishi. It's a very strong gear set; there is a EFR8374 2.4L stroker Evo down under that is used in hillclimb and rally type racing (basically worst case scenario for torque and usage). The owner has used the kit for a decade in competition and street duty, no problem with gears breaking. Our own keltalon has the kit in his 800+ whp car, no problem according to him. Every dog box manufacturer has part failures, it's the nature of engineering something for a transmission that wasn't meant to take abuse. Both manufacturers use similar straight-cut gears, the primary difference here is the engagement style, which has little to do with parts-related failures. A dog box is a massive step towards an unlivable car, don't use it to chase some mythical reliability - if your car is a street car, use the PAR synchro kit.

Canadian_CD9A said:

PAR makes a straight-cut synchronized gear kit, you don't need the dog box. And a VR4 diff isn't really an upgrade. This really doesn't tell us much about what kind of power or usage the car will have either.

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I only see options for EVOs on their site and don't see an option for a 5th gear either. Do you have a link to the gear kit you're talking about?

Spleen8urLSX said:

Keep in mind your dog box isn’t going to be “bulletproof”, and might not be the correct selection for a street car for what you have in mind. Yes, you can street drive on a dog box, buddy of mine did it regularly in his Summit in Washington DC traffic but takes some know how and isn’t ideal if you don’t need it. A few years back we went up to TRE to drop off buddy’s parts, Jon showed us a dog gear set out of a customers Evo who bought it with the dog box already in it and thought it’d be bulletproof for regular point a to point b driving, not knowing the precautions and driving it around point a point b like a regular manual cost him some pretty expensive parts. Again not saying you can’t, and I can’t explain exactly what you’d need to do as I’ve never owned one myself, but it’s something to research before you spend as you could potentially tear up a few thousand worth of parts and work you don’t want to re spend and you might find it’s not what you want, and me and many others here will vouch you don’t at all need it and it won’t make your transmission invincible if that’s what you have in mind.

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Yes I know you need to rev match when down shifting and some other things when trying to dd a dogbox. Lots of people do it so I'll figure it out. I don't think I have an option though because I'm trying to make atleast 600hp at the crank.

randizzle420 said:

I only see options for EVOs on their site and don't see an option for a 5th gear either. Do you have a link to the gear kit you're talking about?

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The DSM has the W5M33 like the Evo 1-3. 5th gear is optional, but I would keep a stock DSM/Evo 5th gear. They don't fail and they'll be quieter.

randizzle420 said:

Yes I know you need to rev match when down shifting and some other things when trying to dd a dogbox. Lots of people do it so I'll figure it out. I don't think I have an option though because I'm trying to make atleast 600hp at the crank.

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Not at all a lot of people doing it, legitimately dailying a dsm making that kind of power is a task in itself and not really plausible, but it could be done. Making the kind of torque you’re going to be making you can justify it and it indeed can be done, but I just tell people to know the precautions.

Canadian_CD9A said:

The DSM has the W5M33 like the Evo 1-3. 5th gear is optional, but I would keep a stock DSM/Evo 5th gear. They don't fail and they'll be quieter.

5M33SS-SET - Lancer Evolution (1~3) 1st~4th Synchromesh Engagement gearset - PAR Engineering

The PAR Evolution 1~3 synchromesh engagement straight cut gearset offers immense strength and durability with some customers for customers also looking for day to day OEM driveability. We can supply with a standard centre differential that can accommodate 4 spider bevel gears opposed to the...

www.par-engineering.com

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Dude you are on FIRE with the drivetrain answers this week! Freaking loving it man. You are answering sooo many questions I had about designing a setup for casual weekend canyon runs but also for autocross (max effort). I had been thinking forever that I would HAVE to get a dog box and just deal with it on the street, but now with this second option I feel way better about times when I will be driving the car on the street. Look like I will be going PAR for sure now and having someone like TRE to put it together. Thanks again man.

It would be cool to see more people run the PAR gear set for more feedback on it.

I don't have any personal experience on PAR products, so can't tell anything about that. The only experience I have with PAR is when my customers want it I need to contact them. But usually it takes long to hear back from them or no response. Maybe this happens only to me but this makes me a bit worried in case of needing replacement parts or some support in the future. Communications with PPG is always great. I have a straight cut gear dogbox and you can daily drive it unless you care much about the noise from straight cut gears and shift change shocks.

Canadian_CD9A said:

Note that I said PAR synchro kit, not dog box. PPG doesn't make a synchro gear kit. The most street-friendly upgraded gear kit available for our cars is the PAR synchro kit, bar none. I know of several people who run it with success and no issues whatsoever.

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Gotcha....

Canadian_CD9A said:

The DSM has the W5M33 like the Evo 1-3. 5th gear is optional, but I would keep a stock DSM/Evo 5th gear. They don't fail and they'll be quieter.

5M33SS-SET - Lancer Evolution (1~3) 1st~4th Synchromesh Engagement gearset - PAR Engineering

The PAR Evolution 1~3 synchromesh engagement straight cut gearset offers immense strength and durability with some customers for customers also looking for day to day OEM driveability. We can supply with a standard centre differential that can accommodate 4 spider bevel gears opposed to the...

www.par-engineering.com

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Okay but what's the hp rating on those because that's the same price as PPG gears and PPG has proven to handle over 1000 hp.

randizzle420 said:

Okay but what's the hp rating on those because that's the same price as PPG gears and PPG has proven to handle over 1000 hp.

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You can rate for 1000hp, but it’s irrelevant. There are so many ways to make a transmission fail that aren't related to the gears - most of the big power PPG guys are rebuilding frequently anyway. As I said above, the gears are very similar in design, the primary difference is the gear engagement component, which has little to do with how much power they’ll handle. If you have a 800hp street car, you buy the PAR synchro kit. If you have a 800hp race car, you buy a dog kit. I don’t care what the PPG dog kit (or PAR dog kit) is rated to, I don’t want it anywhere near my car, period. People are underestimating how miserable a dog box is to drive around. I could mayyybe live with an Albins dog dox since it's helical cut, but that's a different ball game.

Lord, I don't think anyone in this thread has even seen a dsm dogbox much less driven one...

600 at the crank really isn't enough to warrant a dogbox unless you plan on nothing but racing it. If you can keep a reasonable clutch in it, a decent shape early gear set in your case will last forever.

Anyway, they are not that terrible to drive, you just have to remember it's there. When you round the dogs on 2nd, it's $1500 to replace. Then third is next and it's another $1500. So keep that in mind.

Last, get a front lsd.

bastarddsm said:

When you round the dogs on 2nd, it's $1500 to replace. Then third is next and it's another $1500. So keep that in mind.

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As I remember, you've had a PPG gearset in your car for just a little while now, and you've said someplace that you are going to take it out soon and replace with synchro, OEM I think, gears. When you do that, it would be pretty cool if you could take some good photos of the dog wear on 2nd and 3rd, assuming it's still a usable, not-broken transmission when you take it apart. (Most of the pics we see are broken stuff - not always very helpful). That, with a few words about the usage it has seen, and your opinion about how much life is left in the dogs. Something like that.

We're on Boost said:

As I remember, you've had a PPG gearset in your car for just a little while now, and you've said someplace that you are going to take it out soon and replace with synchro, OEM I think, gears. When you do that, it would be pretty cool if you could take some good photos of the dog wear on 2nd and 3rd, assuming it's still a usable, not-broken transmission when you take it apart. (Most of the pics we see are broken stuff - not always very helpful). That, with a few words about the usage it has seen, and your opinion about how much life is left in the dogs. Something like that.

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Yes, I've had it in the car since 2019. It got almost 10k miles on it the first year. Not much since, as it's getting painted and doesn't really leave the garage except to go to the track a few times. When i had the trans apart this summer to work on my billet shift forks, the 2nd dogs are getting fairly worn. Maybe halfway to jumping out of gear? I'd guess they will last all next season, which would be 50-75 passes I'd guess. I'll re machine them at some point, and probably but new gear and slider too.

Street driving it isn't that bad. It's just funny what the inexperienced have to say about it. downshifting is BY far the biggest negative. The sound doesn't even matter. It all but goes away in 5th. Up-shifting is pretty easy really, you can get it done without a sound. You can also downshift nicely, but you gotta plan it out and get slowed way down and go 5-4-3-2-1. It's very hard to do in traffic, you have to be deliberate and focus on what you are doing.

Anyway for drag racing the only negative is that first gear is just way too tall for anything but a car like boostin's. It murders the clutch. Furthermore it's not been a quick on the dog box with much better 60's than it was on the liberty faceplated set that has about the lowest possible first gear considering I run evo finals and a dsm first. I don't know why everyone trips overthemselvs trying to get the tall ass firsts.

Yes I plan on putting a stockish trans back in for a while. Last summer I had the trans out 10 times for different clutch experiments and working on the billet shift forks. It's really not a big deal to swap the trans for me. I want it to go 9's on a synchro trans and a street disc this year. It went 10.17 or something last year with a 4 puck on a shit track. I also want a 1.4 60' and I think dsm first gear and ET drags are gonna help that.

bastarddsm said:

Yes, I've had it in the car since 2019. It got almost 10k miles on it the first year. Not much since, as it's getting painted and doesn't really leave the garage except to go to the track a few times. When i had the trans apart this summer to work on my billet shift forks, the 2nd dogs are getting fairly worn. Maybe halfway to jumping out of gear? I'd guess they will last all next season, which would be 50-75 passes I'd guess.

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That sounds pretty positive actually, given 10k miles and your use is a lot more severe than mine.

bastarddsm said:

You can also downshift nicely, but you gotta plan it out and get slowed way down and go 5-4-3-2-1. It's very hard to do in traffic, you have to be deliberate and focus on what you are doing.

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Planning it out, that’s what I think makes it harder for street driving. I feel like I need to premeditate every shift, even the upshifts, so as to minimize trauma to the dogs and really the entire drivetrain. The downshifts I always double clutch and that usually works really well unless I’m in too much of a hurry.

I don’t drive my car very much so I’m still trying to improve my comfort level with the doggie and the twin disc.

Thanks for the info!

A lot probably depends on how the builder set it up. I don't set the bearing preload super high, so the trans doesnt spin down as fast I think it helps down shifts but idk.

@bastarddsm
What oil do you use in yours?
I've been using Motul Gear Competition 75w140 because that is what PPG recommends. Tim's first recommendation was Redline 75w140NS. When I asked him about the Motul he said yeah that's good too. So that's what I've been using.

But here's a weird thought. When you are shoving the gear lever into the next gear (upshift), about half the time the dogs will just happen to be lined up with the pockets and they will fall right in and slam a little as they hit the end of the pocket. That's not so bad. That's the "clunk".
But the other half of the time, the dogs will not fall right into pockets, they will hit the "face" that surrounds the pockets. They will then slide along that face until they come to the next pocket, and then fall into it, hopefully. Or, if there is a lot of speed difference between the dogs and the pockets, the dogs might bounce off of a few pockets before they go in (engage).

Motul Gear Competition is a very slippery oil. Redline NS is not so slippery. "No Slip" right?
So I wonder if the "NS" might actually help the dog part and the pockets part to do some speed matching in the case where the dogs first hit the face instead of the pockets. I mean it's logical obviously, but maybe the actual effect is so small that it's a nothing. Do you have any opinion about that?

For the OP, you'll need a twin disc for sure, watch for clearancing the clutch as some twins might contact the fork, but you should be running an aftermarket steel fork.

Run 75-140 No slip gear fluid, spend the money, do it! All these comments are from people that don't run dogboxes.

All except for @DSMPT, @bastarddsm and @We're on Boost