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Please guide me to a budget 500 hp internals build!

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cjeclipse

Probationary Member
18
2
Mar 23, 2022
Honolulu, Hawaii
I have a 6 bolt block and a 7 bolt head from someone who used to run it. My powergoal for this whole year is only atleast 300 whp as it will be my daily beater car! but the thing is, im already gonna build this block and head i might as well just do it right the first time.
please help me find the most optimal on a budget pistons,rods,and valves,springs,retainers? also what bearings is the best bang for my buck? im pretty sure im only doing 300hp for this car and that would be it. but i want it to handle that reliably so i can play with it on the streets with no worries. i also love revving the shit out of the car so i want it done right. thanks guys.
 
I have a 6 bolt block and a 7 bolt head from someone who used to run it. My powergoal for this whole year is only atleast 300 whp as it will be my daily beater car! but the thing is, im already gonna build this block and head i might as well just do it right the first time.
please help me find the most optimal on a budget pistons,rods,and valves,springs,retainers? also what bearings is the best bang for my buck? im pretty sure im only doing 300hp for this car and that would be it. but i want it to handle that reliably so i can play with it on the streets with no worries. i also love revving the shit out of the car so i want it done right. thanks guys.
my buddy is also offering me for a good deal a 272 cams idk what that will do over stock, is it worth it?
 
What BRAND of 272s? They vary by brand name.
 
Budget might be to find some good used piston/rod deal and re ring them to your freshly bored block keeping in mind the new bore over size! So get the correct piston size for the bore!

If you like to rev it and be beliable then some H beams would do you well, compstar by calkies do H and I beams and cranks with good results but might be a bit out your budget as ever ones budget is different. Dont get eagle cranks as they are still bad and come very unbalanced last time i read up on them!

Pistons can be any brand you like. Diamond seem good but not cheap cheap. This is why i think a used setup might be more ideal for your budget requirments
 
Budget might be to find some good used piston/rod deal and re ring them to your freshly bored block keeping in mind the new bore over size! So get the correct piston size for the bore!

If you like to rev it and be beliable then some H beams would do you well, compstar by calkies do H and I beams and cranks with good results but might be a bit out your budget as ever ones budget is different. Dont get eagle cranks as they are still bad and come very unbalanced last time i read up on them!

Pistons can be any brand you like. Diamond seem good but not cheap cheap. This is why i think a used setup might be more ideal for your budget requirments
I can see that the H beam rods from eagle and manley set are almost same price about almost 500 after tax. which brand would be better?

same with pistons theres so many brands and i see manley with 85.5 is the cheapest i can find. is this a good option for reliability? almost 600 dollars but if im already gonna go on those high prices, might aswell just go all in. any other brand recomendations? or manleys will do just fine?
also im using stock crank. still very clean. and no worn out signs
 
If there’s nothing wrong with the stock stuff there’s no reason to upgrade just to make 300, the stock internals will laugh at 300 no matter what fuel you use as long as everything is healthy. Me personally I’d rather use known good stock internals than buy pistons and rods based on the lowest budget in mind. Push come to shove have the machine shop clean up the stock rods, get some NPR or ITM or whatever branding stock replacement pistons in the size you need, get the block cleaned up and honed or bored over depending on the condition of the cylinders (that’s where you’ll figure out what size you need), and go. As far as bearings go go with a tri metal, ACL, King, Clevite, all will do just as well as long as clearances are proper, brand selection comes down to selection, price, and what’s in stock. A “freshened” up stock bottom end will be more than enough for your current goal of 300 and if assembled right and your tune is proper it’ll be plenty good for that 500 you speak of later. To put it into perspective, before he reset his own record at the shootout a few weeks ago the stock bottom end record was done on an untouched 230k mile stock bottom end that had been in about 10 different DSM’s and made (won’t give away exact number) well into the 700s through an auto trans and high stall converter. Still on a stock bottom end yet a different stock one when his own record was reset, and obviously I’m not telling you or anyone else to throw that kind of power at one but for sake of example vs what your goals are you’d be just fine.

If it says anything I made well over 400 for several seasons on an untouched 140k mile non turbo 6 bolt bottom end, most recently was on pump gas and a 63mm Borg Warner, and I beat the living bajesuses out of that thing for multiple seasons and thousands of miles, and failure wasn’t due to internals being too weak. My new bottom end has brand new replacement “non turbo” pistons with that being said.
 
If there’s nothing wrong with the stock stuff there’s no reason to upgrade just to make 300, the stock internals will laugh at 300 no matter what fuel you use as long as everything is healthy. Me personally I’d rather use known good stock internals than buy pistons and rods based on the lowest budget in mind. Push come to shove have the machine shop clean up the stock rods, get some NPR or ITM or whatever branding stock replacement pistons in the size you need, get the block cleaned up and honed or bored over depending on the condition of the cylinders (that’s where you’ll figure out what size you need), and go. As far as bearings go go with a tri metal, ACL, King, Clevite, all will do just as well as long as clearances are proper, brand selection comes down to selection, price, and what’s in stock. A “freshened” up stock bottom end will be more than enough for your current goal of 300 and if assembled right and your tune is proper it’ll be plenty good for that 500 you speak of later. To put it into perspective, before he reset his own record at the shootout a few weeks ago the stock bottom end record was done on an untouched 230k mile stock bottom end that had been in about 10 different DSM’s and made (won’t give away exact number) well into the 700s through an auto trans and high stall converter. Still on a stock bottom end yet a different stock one when his own record was reset, and obviously I’m not telling you or anyone else to throw that kind of power at one but for sake of example vs what your goals are you’d be just fine.

If it says anything I made well over 400 for several seasons on an untouched 140k mile non turbo 6 bolt bottom end, most recently was on pump gas and a 63mm Borg Warner, and I beat the living bajesuses out of that thing for multiple seasons and thousands of miles, and failure wasn’t due to internals being too weak. My new bottom end has brand new replacement “non turbo” pistons with that being said.
Thats what i was thinking! So long story short i got this motor and every one thought it had rod knock so i basically got it for free. It had 100-130 compressions. And upon instpection it wasnt a bearing knocking but a 2 mm rock like aluminum but on one cylinder. It was wedged on one of the pistons and is knocking sound every time it goes up and down. I was gonna do all stock but people keep recomending aftermarkets but my goal is only 300 whp. Should i just put everything back with new rings and bearings? I was told the motor just got rebuilt recently with stock parts and they all look new except the piston with a 2mm dent
 
I can see that the H beam rods from eagle and manley set are almost same price about almost 500 after tax. which brand would be better?

same with pistons theres so many brands and i see manley with 85.5 is the cheapest i can find. is this a good option for reliability? almost 600 dollars but if im already gonna go on those high prices, might aswell just go all in. any other brand recomendations? or manleys will do just fine?
also im using stock crank. still very clean. and no worn out signs
Also to further elaborate on this, there’s guys making over 1000 on a stock crank, not a weak point for us. If you’re current crank is good with just a polish then it’s good to go for whatever power you’ll ever throw at it. As far as 85.5mm pistons, those are oversized. Nothing wrong with oversized pistons however I would not go boring the cylinders if there’s no damage to the cylinder walls or they aren’t out of round, if they’re in good condition a hone and standard sized pistons will suffice. I say this because if you have a mishap later down the road that does damage a cylinder or 4 you have more meat there to work with, say you bore it for .020 over pistons now and that happens you’ll only be able to go .040 over if there’s a next time then you’re at your limit. However if there’s damage already then you can’t really get around it, that’s the boat I was in, my new block 3 out of the 4 cylinders had deep vertical gouging so boring it over was the only option to make it correct.
 
Thats what i was thinking! So long story short i got this motor and every one thought it had rod knock so i basically got it for free. It had 100-130 compressions. And upon instpection it wasnt a bearing knocking but a 2 mm rock like aluminum but on one cylinder. It was wedged on one of the pistons and is knocking sound every time it goes up and down. I was gonna do all stock but people keep recomending aftermarkets but my goal is only 300 whp. Should i just put everything back with new rings and bearings? I was told the motor just got rebuilt recently with stock parts and they all look new except the piston with a 2mm dent
Don’t mean to spam your thread but I was typing my last response as you posted this so my apologies. But you’re correct. If everything checks out (example all the rods are straight, crank is good with just a polish, pistons have no compromising damage, cylinders have no damage) you’d be good with a hot tank, hone, re ring and new bearings and go. Worst case scenario with the damage described to one piston (if that cylinder isn’t damaged) you could buy some new replacement pistons in standard size which also come with the rings and be good with a hone.
 
I'd be interested to know where to get 95 pistons - or what the equivalent is these days. My 6-bolt with 1G Rods, 040 over bore 95 pistons have held up - no issues - with a Big16G and 382hp. I want to do the same setup moving forward with more turbo and see what it will hold.
 
I'd be interested to know where to get 95 pistons - or what the equivalent is these days. My 6-bolt with 1G Rods, 040 over bore 95 pistons have held up - no issues - with a Big16G and 382hp. I want to do the same setup moving forward with more turbo and see what it will hold.
I was initially going to do 2g pistons on 6 bolt rods and was able to find the 2g pistons in 85.5mm on eBay under the “NPR” branding before I changed my mind to use non turbo pistons again. That’s been a year and I don’t remember if they were available in 86mm or not. Another place I’d check is Rockauto as that’s where I bought my “non turbo” pistons in 85.5mm under the ITM brand name (same as stock pistons out of the same factory just like NPR and Top Line etc). Reason I went that route is Rockauto had them listed and finding oversized non turbo pistons on eBay was a bit of a chore, to my surprise Rockauto had options and they were cheap at that.
 
Don’t mean to spam your thread but I was typing my last response as you posted this so my apologies. But you’re correct. If everything checks out (example all the rods are straight, crank is good with just a polish, pistons have no compromising damage, cylinders have no damage) you’d be good with a hot tank, hone, re ring and new bearings and go. Worst case scenario with the damage described to one piston (if that cylinder isn’t damaged) you could buy some new replacement pistons in standard size which also come with the rings and be good with a hone.
These are the pics i took if that cylinder. U think i can just out em back together with acl race rod and main bearings and nippon rings and run 300whp reliably for the next 2 years atleast? Im most likely not gonna go up past that as i have other builds for higher hps. 300whp is like 400hp crank?

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does those rough ups matter on the piston and the head? the rock i was talking about pretty much destroyed the smooth finish of my piston and head but compression was still decent. will this work or what should i do with the head to make it smooth on that cylinder? (only if necessary for my power goals and daily drive). and should i buy new piston?
 
I have a 6 bolt block and a 7 bolt head from someone who used to run it. My powergoal for this whole year is only atleast 300 whp as it will be my daily beater car! but the thing is, im already gonna build this block and head i might as well just do it right the first time.
please help me find the most optimal on a budget pistons,rods,and valves,springs,retainers? also what bearings is the best bang for my buck? im pretty sure im only doing 300hp for this car and that would be it. but i want it to handle that reliably so i can play with it on the streets with no worries. i also love revving the shit out of the car so i want it done right. thanks guys.
2 months ago you wanted 500hp parts. Which one is it?
 
2 months ago you wanted 500hp parts. Which one is it?
Im kind of in a budget now and i have other buids for higher power but i wanna just enjoy the 2g now and make sure its reliable. Atm i have a stock 7bolt in there im not sure how long its gona last ast not much maintenance done to it. So i wanna throw this 6 bolt for a much more peace of mind so i wont have to out more time into this car again and drive it.
 
does those rough ups matter on the piston and the head? the rock i was talking about pretty much destroyed the smooth finish of my piston and head but compression was still decent. will this work or what should i do with the head to make it smooth on that cylinder? (only if necessary for my power goals and daily drive). and should i buy new piston?
I would say you’re at minimal looking at doing pistons and honing it. Can’t tell from pictures as I’m not there to feel it but you can see obvious vertical scratching on the cylinder wall where the piston is damaged. If your fingernail catches those scratches at all then they may or may not hone out, if it catches pretty good indicating those scratches are deep you’ll probably definitely need an overbore. At the minimal I’d say a set of pistons are necessary at this point (no reason to replace just one when the sets like 100 bucks with rings and wrist pins) but depending how significant the damage it could be an issue for the machine shop to determine if an overbore is necessary. Not to mention that chunk of aluminum tore the head up pretty good, based on that picture I’d be opting to use a different head as that one might need a lot of work (welding and machining) to bring it back around.
 
I would say you’re at minimal looking at doing pistons and honing it. Can’t tell from pictures as I’m not there to feel it but you can see obvious vertical scratching on the cylinder wall where the piston is damaged. If your fingernail catches those scratches at all then they may or may not hone out, if it catches pretty good indicating those scratches are deep you’ll probably definitely need an overbore. At the minimal I’d say a set of pistons are necessary at this point (no reason to replace just one when the sets like 100 bucks with rings and wrist pins) but depending how significant the damage it could be an issue for the machine shop to determine if an overbore is necessary. Not to mention that chunk of aluminum tore the head up pretty good, based on that picture I’d be opting to use a different head as that one might need a lot of work (welding and machining) to bring it back around.
Which pistons are 100 bucks for a set? Where could i get this? Are they reliable? I dont wanna go too cheap if it sacrifices reliability. And what u think about the head on that cylinder? Does the rough finish it made make a difference?
 
Which pistons are 100 bucks for a set? Where could i get this? Are they reliable? I dont wanna go too cheap if it sacrifices reliability. And what u think about the head on that cylinder? Does the rough finish it made make a difference?
Search “4g63 pistons” and look for stock replacements on eBay listed for years like 90-92. As stated above all these stock replacement pistons came out of the same factory as the originals, just different companies slap their name on the box, NPR, Top Line, ITM, etc. As far as the head goes read the last sentence of my last response. Looks like the head got beat up pretty good, to the point it’s not worth using and fixing it could cost a lot and that’s just what can be seen.

Edit: I can assure you looking back at the side view of the pistons it confirms someone indeed has been in there as those are stock replacements as they have no diamond logo on the side. Not that it’s a bad thing they were in there, but that tells a few things too. If those pistons are standard sized then that block has likely been honed once before (if it was built correctly the last time), or it could possibly be bored over. Though it’s hard to say not having it in front of me but the deeper we get here the more it’s looking like it needs to go to the machine shop at the bare minimum to be checked. Problem is if it’s been honed once and now that a cylinder has been damaged on top of it, it may require an overbore regardless at this point, a machine shop can measure and based on their knowledge tell you exactly what it needs. You can be budget minded when building an engine, but reassembling things that need obvious work with new parts is only going to chew up brand new parts in a short amount of time and cause even more damage. At that point it’s not “how much power” or “how long will it last”, it’s flat out it won’t last or do much of anything long at all if things are just slammed together out of tolerance with no machining.
 
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Search “4g63 pistons” and look for stock replacements on eBay listed for years like 90-92. As stated above all these stock replacement pistons came out of the same factory as the originals, just different companies slap their name on the box, NPR, Top Line, ITM, etc. As far as the head goes read the last sentence of my last response. Looks like the head got beat up pretty good, to the point it’s not worth using and fixing it could cost a lot and that’s just what can be seen.

Edit: I can assure you looking back at the side view of the pistons it confirms someone indeed has been in there as those are stock replacements as they have no diamond logo on the side. Not that it’s a bad thing they were in there, but that tells a few things too. If those pistons are standard sized then that block has likely been honed once before (if it was built correctly the last time), or it could possibly be bored over. Though it’s hard to say not having it in front of me but the deeper we get here the more it’s looking like it needs to go to the machine shop at the bare minimum to be checked. Problem is if it’s been honed once and now that a cylinder has been damaged on top of it, it may require an overbore regardless at this point, a machine shop can measure and based on their knowledge tell you exactly what it needs. You can be budget minded when building an engine, but reassembling things that need obvious work with new parts is only going to chew up brand new parts in a short amount of time and cause even more damage. At that point it’s not “how much power” or “how long will it last”, it’s flat out it won’t last or do much of anything long at all if things are just slammed together out of tolerance with no machini
thanks for all the info man. with that said i think im better off just looking for a stock 6 bolt, make sure compression is good and throw it in the car? or should i still give it a try? i called a reliable machine shop around me today and quoted me 300 bucks for ovebore and hone if i need overbore. and i can see pistons 85.5 or 86? is overboring bad for reliabilty as ittl make the sleeve thinner? or its good if done right?.... and for the head i think ill throw the stock 7 bolt head in there. i researched I only need to make the head bolt holes larger to make it fit arps? plus of course the manifolds from 7 bolt head too. I appreciate the inputs!
 
I don't know what brand of bearings they supply with this "kit" but it is a very good deal.......
when compared to https://www.ebay.com/itm/283799137415?var=585222025055&_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20201210111314&meid=9af9b3c684044849a47f8f8fdb917ba5&pid=101195&rk=7&rkt=12&sd=261403347018&itm=585222025055&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&brand=Aftermarket+Products&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum:2837991374159af9b3c684044849a47f8f8fdb917ba5|enc:AQAHAAABMMFr2e4EmAnM%2ByHZkULYKDIJ4L66fOjNL0iupgt%2BzO1%2F3AE1t3mNirUYB96NktMCicMagiS6mbeTl0xquGODv9l6x8uv7qfA1F2ncRWxzNNDsY9N%2FIOnTjtG5Q3uH%2FvaoFsa%2BXrvo9dcOsCyIEr0Ug7nIuqWYcGR8LLeyG%2FzRTiYHA9mCbGvCEf2DdkKSfMWBQx48KJ2Pf%2B0PPHfv79UAjK%2FUD%2F%2FFgaSGfL4olvu9s929JNhhB2gheuba0ZoPhE8nEJhq17aFgzCHNtuH5pXJ46OoJyohAejRNeXFz7ArjD2nynNJhMoW0eW3SFw9uYOXd4U1TIwyk42qkxchMWUG%2FqxQ7xYr%2BOQ371ZNYA6vU8nRWCgYbwpXsCb6yLEwUL9x%2BKqVYxg11TmkxUGQDys96s%3D|ampid:pL_CLK|clp:2047675

I have a motor that I am using NPR pistons and rings in and they fit great. I am sure they will be just fine. We will find out over the winter if my son and I get the chance to swap out motors in the 90 GSX I have due to low oil pressure. I don't want to ruin a motor so I would rather pull it now and rebuild it, then wait for a rod to start knocking. Preventive maintenance is all.
 
I don't know what brand of bearings they supply with this "kit" but it is a very good deal.......

Marty, I bought a kit from them a couple months ago. I didn’t get pistons but full gasket, rings and bearings. Both the rings and bearings were a brand called Evergreen I’m pretty certain, I can check when I get home and confirm.
-Daniel
 
I have a set of Evergreen Rings for a 6 bolt, sitting on the motor. They look like typical normal rings so I was going to use them. They came with the 6 bolt my oldest son bought and looked ok for a stock rebuild. Thanks for the follow up, it helps everyone! :thumb:
I was worried about the bearings being a soft bearing is why I was questioning it. My preference is a tri metal "hard" bearing but when you start finding cranks that are cut twice in a motor, the only bearings you can get are Alumiglides by King or ACL, I can't remember where I found them (but a .040" cut 4g crank???.....it looked fine but everyone brings up "nitriding" which is just a surface treatment anyway). If I don't find a better crank, I will assemble it back the way it was.
 
I've recently rebuilt my 6 bolt with stock internals. Found Nippon 2g 85.5mm pistons and NPR rings on ebay ($170). Machine work to bore +.20 and hone, clean, deck the block and head, polish crank, and inspect the align hone ended up costing me north of $800 (and about 10-12 weeks). Another $230 or so to machine 1g rods and fit 2g pistons. So we're at $1200 just for the basics. Include a set of valves, bearings, complete seal kit, front case/oil pump, timing belt components, tools, etc. etc. and I probably put close to $3k into it. This was mostly a budget build and I didn't splurge on any go-fast parts yet. Granted I also didn't go with the cheapest machine shop. Besides the machine work, there was no mechanic/engine builder costs. YMMV
 
I've recently rebuilt my 6 bolt with stock internals. Found Nippon 2g 85.5mm pistons and NPR rings on ebay ($170). Machine work to bore +.20 and hone, clean, deck the block and head, polish crank, and inspect the align hone ended up costing me north of $800 (and about 10-12 weeks). Another $230 or so to machine 1g rods and fit 2g pistons. So we're at $1200 just for the basics. Include a set of valves, bearings, complete seal kit, front case/oil pump, timing belt components, tools, etc. etc. and I probably put close to $3k into it. This was mostly a budget build and I didn't splurge on any go-fast parts yet. Granted I also didn't go with the cheapest machine shop. Besides the machine work, there was no mechanic/engine builder costs. YMMV
Thank you for this input! I will be doing assembling myself to learn from it. I bought all the spec measuring tools needed to save cost instead of paying labor id rather buy me own tools😅 if ever mine really needs a oversize pistons, which is what its looking like. Ill do this. How reliable is your motor now since the rebuild? And how much are you pushing at max?
 
I don't know what brand of bearings they supply with this "kit" but it is a very good deal.......
when compared to https://www.ebay.com/itm/283799137415?var=585222025055&_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20201210111314&meid=9af9b3c684044849a47f8f8fdb917ba5&pid=101195&rk=7&rkt=12&sd=261403347018&itm=585222025055&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&brand=Aftermarket+Products&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum:2837991374159af9b3c684044849a47f8f8fdb917ba5|enc:AQAHAAABMMFr2e4EmAnM%2ByHZkULYKDIJ4L66fOjNL0iupgt%2BzO1%2F3AE1t3mNirUYB96NktMCicMagiS6mbeTl0xquGODv9l6x8uv7qfA1F2ncRWxzNNDsY9N%2FIOnTjtG5Q3uH%2FvaoFsa%2BXrvo9dcOsCyIEr0Ug7nIuqWYcGR8LLeyG%2FzRTiYHA9mCbGvCEf2DdkKSfMWBQx48KJ2Pf%2B0PPHfv79UAjK%2FUD%2F%2FFgaSGfL4olvu9s929JNhhB2gheuba0ZoPhE8nEJhq17aFgzCHNtuH5pXJ46OoJyohAejRNeXFz7ArjD2nynNJhMoW0eW3SFw9uYOXd4U1TIwyk42qkxchMWUG%2FqxQ7xYr%2BOQ371ZNYA6vU8nRWCgYbwpXsCb6yLEwUL9x%2BKqVYxg11TmkxUGQDys96s%3D|ampid:pL_CLK|clp:2047675

I have a motor that I am using NPR pistons and rings in and they fit great. I am sure they will be just fine. We will find out over the winter if my son and I get the chance to swap out motors in the 90 GSX I have due to low oil pressure. I don't want to ruin a motor so I would rather pull it now and rebuild it, then wait for a rod to start knocking. Preventive maintenance is all.
Thanks for these link! I already bought acl race bearings to be sure on the bearing side. But if im not over sizing ill get this for the pistons.
 
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