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1G Where to start?

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arfbarkyPrime

Proven Member
62
36
Aug 27, 2022
Ann Arbor, Michigan
I have inherited my wife's 1992 Eagle Talon TSI AWD which has been parked in the garage for over 4 years. She was very active in the DSM community in the mid-late 90s, however she became unable to work on it or drive it after 2005. I used to take it out and exercise it after that, but that fell off over other priorities. Now it's time to get it back on the road.

This is from her notes on the work she'd done:

ported 16g turbo (7cm exhaust housing)
ported '95 exhaust manifold
ported O2 housing
JBC boost controller
Mofugas 2.5 in. downpipe
Buschur 2.5 in. cat back
Buschur 2.5 in. test pipe
2.5 in. Speed Design upper intercooler pipe
2.25 in. lower intercooler pipe made by Evan Cline
Stock intercooler with 2.25 inlet/outlet
Apex AFC (old style)
Nippondenso fuel pump
RC Engineering Lucas style 550 cc fuel injectors
Fuel pump rewired with 8 AWG wire, and relay
Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch (old style)
Front 2g AWD dual piston calipers
Carbotech Bobcat front brake pads
Rear Cross drilled rotors (type??? previous owner)
KYB GR2 struts
KYB GR2 shocks
Creative Concepts front strut tower bar
SPI P series -30 to 30 psi boost gauge
NGK plug wires
NGK BPR7ES spark plugs
John Shepherd full transmission rebuild (unknown on any upgrades)

Not yet installed:
Eibach Pro-kit springs
Selby/Whiteline sway bars (front/rear)
KYB AGX shocks/struts

Before it was parked, it was running fine with some small issues. Now, it has the obvious - dry-rotted tires, shot battery and I'm very concerned about the condition of the fuel in the tank. I don't want to attempt to start it without taking care of stuff first. I'm no stranger to working on cars, but I haven't worked on this one before. So what should I do before starting it? I was thinking of doing an oil change, and draining the fuel and of course tires and battery.

Longer term, I'm going to replace the Apexi with ECMlink. And it burns some oil, there are even tiny droplets of oil in the exhaust so I need to find the solution to that. She mentioned before that she needed a catchcan.

So what are the things I need to do before starting it up?
 
How long since it ran? How long since last timing belt change?
A few drops of oil in each cylinder wouldn't hurt and turn it over by hand.
I would try and run fuel pump manually and see if it still works. You can also see how full the tank is and figure out if you can pull all the fuel and replace it with fresh. The last car I had sat for 5 years. I fired it up on old gas. Fuel pump was bad and I went through 2 more after that in short order. To be fair they were junk stockers I had on the shelf. After getting all old gas out I put in a brand new pump, changed the timing belt and water pump and drove that sucker to blow out the cobwebs.
I would expect to find old dried up seals, old spark plugs and old gaskets. Outside of anything obvious that's about it. I would check ecu capacitors also.
 
How long since it ran? How long since last timing belt change?
A few drops of oil in each cylinder wouldn't hurt and turn it over by hand.
I would try and run fuel pump manually and see if it still works. You can also see how full the tank is and figure out if you can pull all the fuel and replace it with fresh. The last car I had sat for 5 years. I fired it up on old gas. Fuel pump was bad and I went through 2 more after that in short order. To be fair they were junk stockers I had on the shelf. After getting all old gas out I put in a brand new pump, changed the timing belt and water pump and drove that sucker to blow out the cobwebs.
I would expect to find old dried up seals, old spark plugs and old gaskets. Outside of anything obvious that's about it. I would check ecu capacitors also.
Fall of 2018 is when it got parked where it is. Timing belt probably around 2010 or so, but hardly any miles on it (though I understand it dry rotting, etc.)

Thanks for the reply!
 
I have inherited my wife's 1992 Eagle Talon TSI AWD which has been parked in the garage for over 4 years. She was very active in the DSM community in the mid-late 90s, however she became unable to work on it or drive it after 2005. I used to take it out and exercise it after that, but that fell off over other priorities. Now it's time to get it back on the road.

This is from her notes on the work she'd done:

ported 16g turbo (7cm exhaust housing)
ported '95 exhaust manifold
ported O2 housing
JBC boost controller
Mofugas 2.5 in. downpipe
Buschur 2.5 in. cat back
Buschur 2.5 in. test pipe
2.5 in. Speed Design upper intercooler pipe
2.25 in. lower intercooler pipe made by Evan Cline
Stock intercooler with 2.25 inlet/outlet
Apex AFC (old style)
Nippondenso fuel pump
RC Engineering Lucas style 550 cc fuel injectors
Fuel pump rewired with 8 AWG wire, and relay
Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch (old style)
Front 2g AWD dual piston calipers
Carbotech Bobcat front brake pads
Rear Cross drilled rotors (type??? previous owner)
KYB GR2 struts
KYB GR2 shocks
Creative Concepts front strut tower bar
SPI P series -30 to 30 psi boost gauge
NGK plug wires
NGK BPR7ES spark plugs
John Shepherd full transmission rebuild (unknown on any upgrades)

Not yet installed:
Eibach Pro-kit springs
Selby/Whiteline sway bars (front/rear)
KYB AGX shocks/struts

Before it was parked, it was running fine with some small issues. Now, it has the obvious - dry-rotted tires, shot battery and I'm very concerned about the condition of the fuel in the tank. I don't want to attempt to start it without taking care of stuff first. I'm no stranger to working on cars, but I haven't worked on this one before. So what should I do before starting it? I was thinking of doing an oil change, and draining the fuel and of course tires and battery.

Longer term, I'm going to replace the Apexi with ECMlink. And it burns some oil, there are even tiny droplets of oil in the exhaust so I need to find the solution to that. She mentioned before that she needed a catchcan.

So what are the things I need to do before starting it up?
Definitely change the basics like the spark plugs, plug wires, oil, fuel filter, air filter and oil filter. Another thing I would do is after you drain it flush the engine with 2 quarts of cheap oil. I would clean the brake pads and rotors with brake cleaner.
 
Let me say I know I’m a little late to the party but I stumbled upon your time capsule and that’s how I got here. That car is absolutely fantastic and brings me back to the era that I got into these. With that being said did you get it going yet? Just to give a little insight I’ve started up plenty of stuff that’s sat longer (including a dsm!) and I wouldn’t sweat 4 years too much. I might get my head ripped off for saying it here but even 4 year old gas wouldn’t concern me too much, wouldn’t hit any boost on it and I’d still maybe give it a drink of 110 octane race gas to “clean it up” or neutralize it a bit, but as long as the pump and injectors are working I wouldn’t worry too much, even a dsm 4 years isn’t too long to sit. I would definitely service the timing belt soon however being it was fine 4 years ago, if it’s not visually rotted I wouldn’t hesitate to start it on what’s on there (trust me these cars are getting old enough I have seen some “barn finds” that I sure as hell wouldn’t crank on the timing belt on there, and even then 75% of those people do and end up getting them started at that). As far as oil goes if what was in there was good and within its service interval 4 years ago, it’s still good and within its service interval now as oil doesn’t go bad (again, I see people jump at this on an unnecessary level). If it was me I’d change it for kicks as it’s been 4 years, but I’d at least start it on what’s in there now to stir around any debris or anything in there and help clean it out when you do change it. The biggest things I’ve seen on fuel injected cars that have sat are the fuel pumps going bad and injectors like to stick, and usually when that happens you know right away. I say toss a battery in it and id be willing to bet money it starts right up and runs just as it did 4 years ago then go from there. Please keep us posted as I love the period correctness of the car and the story behind it!

P.S.: Don’t know who said it and I dont say this to bash them, but please DO NOT spray the brake pads with brake parts cleaner, brake parts cleaner is made to be used on metal parts (and typically pre installation but we ALL know it has multi uses), NOT the ceramic or semi metallic compound the pads are made from, that would not be a good thing to do especially if the brake pads are in otherwise good working order.
 
With that being said did you get it going yet?
Thanks for your response! No, not yet ... I have a new battery for it. But first I had to deal with the trash 90s Viper alarm system which is what was always running the battery down - I decided to just rip that out. Which wasn't too bad actually, I got that rats nest all pulled out. I have to re-insulate a couple wires, but the biggest thing that's a headache is the chuckleheads that installed the alarm cut a good 2 inches out of the main starter wire to put in the kill relay, so now it can't reach itself anymore. I had to order some high quality crimp stuff and a ratcheting crimper to fix that, I can't get that large wire hot enough to flow solder so it'll have to be crimped. That's what I"m waiting for.

Once that's set, I'll check the timing belt and then give it a go. Which would be helpful because it's not exactly parked conveniently for working on. It was running fine when parked, so if it will start, I expect it will be fine still like you said. Then I want to do the catch can setup she wanted to do, it burns a bit of oil and she thought there was blowby that a catch can would help with.

Thanks for the compliments too. It's a nice car, it looks really good save for one big scratch on the front fender it got from stuff getting moved around it in the garage. I'll probably get that repainted eventually. I also never understood "debadging" and the silly graphic it has that came from the previous owner; she just left it. I ordered replacement decals to bring it back to stock. I'll probably send the stock wheels out to Detroit Wheel nearby for truing and refinishing back to factory specs, they do excellent work. Then the interior needs attention, it has the passenger dash curl and the falling down headliner. The cosmetics I'll probably work on over the winter; pull off fading plastics and repaint them, repaint the peeling trims, stuff like that.

There's actually pictures of her and the car in one of those import tuner magazines from back in the day, I"m trying to lay my hands on that for the profile!
 
With that being said did you get it going yet?
The answer is now yes!

I finished up the wiring problems and installed the battery today. Then I visually checked the timing belt, to my eyes it looks brand new.

So I finished putting the knee plate back up, hopped in and crossed my fingers. In no more than 6 seconds of cranking, it fired right up! Not a problem at all.

What I didn't do is move all the crap around it, so I couldn't actually pull it out and drive it a little. That will come soon. I did want to bring it up to temp though, so I let it idle for a good while then revved it a little bit. All was well. Then it started doing this:

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But then, that abruptly stopped and the engine sounding fine again.

Though 5 minutes later, it started doing this:

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I kind of let it do that for awhile, trying to decide if it was getting worse over time and was going to stall. But it didn't. So I shut the engine off, waited 30 seconds, then started it again and it went back to idling normally.

Maybe after 4 years of dead battery, the ECU needs to relearn stuff?
 
But then, that abruptly stopped and the engine sounding fine again.

Though 5 minutes later, it started doing this:

That's idle surge, usually caused by air leaking into the cylinders that shouldn't.
You can start by adjusting the BISS on the TB to lower what it's lets through but I wouldn't be surprised if there are additional sources.

Pressure testing the intake is one way to find external leaks but won't find internal ones like a FIAV that isn't closing or a ISC doing the same or vacuum lines looped on the TB.
 
But then, that abruptly stopped and the engine sounding fine again.

Though 5 minutes later, it started doing this:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I kind of let it do that for awhile, trying to decide if it was getting worse over time and was going to stall. But it didn't. So I shut the engine off, waited 30 seconds, then started it again and it went back to idling normally.

Maybe after 4 years of dead battery, the ECU needs to relearn stuff?
Idle surge/vacuum leak after the MAF. This happens after the car is up to "temp" according to the ECU. One reason is if the coolant lines aren't hooked up to the fast idle air valve (next to the ISC motor under the TPS and mounted under the throttle body). You could also just have a vacuum leak somewhere. How does your boost gauge look at idle?
 
Glad to hear it! Being the ticking stopped once it got a little heat in it id definitely say lifters from not being used in a few years, once it got some oil up there it essentially re-bled them and it came out of it, real typical when one hasn’t been started in a couple years.

As far as the idle goes it’s just as steve and TuskeeTuner mentioned, the ol’ notorious DSM idle surge. However, like you mentioned, when the battery is unhooked on these not often but I’ve seen it in the past they’ll sometimes surge until the fuel trims in the ECU reset. It’s also very possible a gasket or seal or anything of the sort between the maf and intake ports on the head had to get a little heat in it to seal up and it came back around. When you get things moved around (can’t fault you there as I’ve been gone every weekend this summer then got sick and been out of commission for a few weeks, my garage is a disaster area) run it a little more and take it around the block a time or two or maybe a run through the McDonald’s drive thru and see if it keeps behaving itself.

Really cool to read of this car and hear it run again, look forward to seeing more of it.
 
Started the car again today and within just a few minutes, it started idle surging.

How does your boost gauge look at idle?

Initial idle when starting it cold is about 1200 RPM, and the gauge hovers at about -17. When the surging starts, the gauge goes back to about -14 or -15.

The car didn't do this when it was parked, so surely it must be something that would deteriorate while sitting over 4 years.
 
Oh and I think the car is running rich. My sweatshirt has a pretty strong exhaust smell.
Since you’re going to be installing ECMlink soon it wouldn’t hurt to go ahead and get a wideband afr gauge on there now. Aside from the performance monitoring aspect and for tuning I’ve found they come in handy as a diagnostic tool too, then you can confirm exactly where it’s at. Sweatshirt may just be a car with a pretty open exhaust running in a somewhat enclosed space with some seasoned gas in it. Throwing some fresh plugs in once you burn through the old fuel may help a bit too.
 
I discovered Terrys Talon Troubleshooting page for idle surge. I started following those items.

Disconnecting the idle switch made it stop surging but then it was idling at like 2300. I pulled off the vacuum lines at the TB one at a time and blocked the nipple, but that didn’t change anything. So next I tried the BISS since it was right there and had no cap. With that I managed to bring idle down to 750 with screw turns to spare.

However, now when driving and I push the clutch in the rpms will just fall past 750 and stall the car. Do I need to look at something else or should I just keep idle higher with the BISS?
 
However, now when driving and I push the clutch in the rpms will just fall past 750 and stall the car. Do I need to look at something else or should I just keep idle higher with the BISS?

Did you reconnect the Idle Position Switch?
If so then it's possible that the ISC or ECU drivers for the ISC have a problem.

Does the RPMs rise if you push the AC switch or turn the steering wheel when sitting still @ idle?
 
Did you reconnect the Idle Position Switch?
If so then it's possible that the ISC or ECU drivers for the ISC have a problem.

Does the RPMs rise if you push the AC switch or turn the steering wheel when sitting still @ idle?
Yes I forgot to mention I did reconnect the switch, surging remained gone. The connector boot for that is totally hard and crumbling, what do people do about that?

I will try the steering wheel tomorrow; I don't think the AC button will do anything, I think AC was removed? I know the driver's side radiator fan is gone. I suspect she had to do that to make room for the 2g exhaust manifold?

I'm about to pull out the ECU anyway, I have another that I socketed and recapped for ECMlink and the chip should arrive in the next day or two.
 
Yes I forgot to mention I did reconnect the switch, surging remained gone. The connector boot for that is totally hard and crumbling, what do people do about that?

I will try the steering wheel tomorrow; I don't think the AC button will do anything, I think AC was removed? I know the driver's side radiator fan is gone. I suspect she had to do that to make room for the 2g exhaust manifold?

I'm about to pull out the ECU anyway, I have another that I socketed and recapped for ECMlink and the chip should arrive in the next day or two.
If you push the AC button it will still trigger the other fan to come on and put it under more load and “tell” the ecu the AC is on even though it’s non existent. Typically that fan is removed for clearance but the 2g manifold positions everything into the exact same location as the original 1g manifold, her reasoning for removing the AC fan is hard to say. Unrelated to the problems you’re having but I ran the single stock fan before myself as in my case my intercooler piping for my front mount interfered with it, one stock fan cooled just as efficiently as the 2 cheap slim fans I currently have (our stock fans actually do quite well, I miss being able to use it). Not sure what she had going on to where she removed it but I’m sure she knew it wasn’t an issue to use just the one.
 
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