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Evo 1 Big 16G vs HTA68 v3

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curt-s

Supporting Member
2,278
1,007
Dec 21, 2008
Winnipeg, MB_Canada
So I've had this B16G for quite some time and while it's been a good, trusty street turbo, I also came into the possession of a brand new, still sealed in the original bag, FP HTA68 V3. It's got a welded flapper so I need to procure an externally gated O2 housing and wastegate which will cost an extra grand for me to do.

I know the HTA flows more and gives more top end than the B16G but let's just say that I'm not concerned with that at the moment and I'm looking to improve low end response and reduce the amount of lag I have.

2nd gear, 20psi by 4K; 3rd gear, 20psi by 3400.

Some may say that's not really laggy but 7.8:1 means it's not peppy getting to 3400 even running the 1G timing table up to 1.4 load with a few tweaks below 2500rpm.

I've also got a Cyclone IM and some scavenged Neon vacuum canisters so I think I'll put that on over winter as well.

My question is, would the 68HTA v3 provide any spool benefit above the Evo 1 B16G at all, or would it end up being worse? Not arguing the HP capability, I just can't find any information on the low end for this turbo -- it's as if nobody uses it.

Quick view for applicable mods:

6bolt, 1G IM, CXracing IC + 2.5 piping, Evo3 manifold, ebay O2, 3" exhaust no cat w/ Vibrant flow thru
 
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1) An external setup is more like $4-500 if you buy used.
2) There is no chance that an hta68 v3 will have more low end or "spool" than a 16g. If you need more low-end than a 16g setup then you need some type of 2.3 or 2.4L build.
 
You're not likely to outspool the 7cm TD05H turbine of the B16G with the 51S & 8cm housing of the v3 68HTA - the turbine inducer and exducer are both bigger on the v3 (56/57mm & 49/51mm, respectively), which hurts spool. The B16G is pretty much as good as it gets for the TD05H platform, so you're looking at either cam timing or displacement increase to quicken response.
 
1) An external setup is more like $4-500 if you buy used.

Not up here :( First, finding a used one here is difficult enough or nigh impossible and then adding 30% on top of the price makes it even worse even if we could find someone willing to ship one outside of the states.

2) There is no chance that an hta68 v3 will have more low end or "spool" than a 16g. If you need more low-end than a 16g setup then you need some type of 2.3 or 2.4L build.
You're not likely to outspool the 7cm TD05H turbine of the B16G with the 51S & 8cm housing of the v3 68HTA - the turbine inducer and exducer are both bigger on the v3 (56/57mm & 49/51mm, respectively), which hurts spool. The B16G is pretty much as good as it gets for the TD05H platform, so you're looking at either cam timing or displacement increase to quicken response.

This is basically what I thought, I just wasn't sure if the more advanced rotating assembly in the v3 would provide benefit over the "ages old" tech that's in the 01450. Perhaps so, but it works against the 8cm.. I was hoping a good explanation as to why it would be shittier would surface. Of course it comes from the guy that sold me the 16G in the first place ;)

For my 20-23psi target, it seems like I am on the money for RPM. Maybe the Cyclone is my next move.

Oh, what to do with the v3..
 
You could switch the compressor wheels over on the B16G for an 11blade compressor and assume its still the stock 12 turbine? This would help spool faster as just a turbo alteration.

Timing is where you will see the main difference.
I forget my psi vs revs currently but its not bad for the turbo i built which was for more top end vs low end so i shifted as much power band further back as i could.

Swapping to the V3 would slow yoursetup down a good amount so stick with your B16G and adjust timing to spool it up a bit sooner.
 
Keep in mind old SBR style manifolds with the external wastegate flange on the #1 runner pop up for sale cheap time to time and would make running an external gate a bit cheaper than buying an o2 housing, however as others have stated if spool is what you’re looking for they’ll be no gain there switching. This isnt to knock FP in the least bit but between the external gate and td06 turbine wheel it would seem more logical to me to go with the Green and ditch the stock appearing compressor cover and j pipe all together at that point.
 
The answer is the cyclone. @MindBlowin03 has some hard data on how much a cyclone improved his torque, throttle response, and spool up time. It’s a significant different. He dynoed +50awtq below the curve if I recall correctly.

On my 16G set up it made a huge difference. Try it out, you’ll love it. With the cyclone and the V3 you won’t take such a hard spool hit and the power increase will be 100% worth it.
 
I was and still am a big fan of a Cyclone intake manifold in anything other than a drag only car. My results were from 2010. On my HX40 setup my max torque was 524 and it was at 5500 RPMs. When I swapped intake manifolds(not gonna mention a name, but SMIM) my max torque was 480 and it was at 5600 RPMs.

Under the curve was significant improvements as well. At 4500 RPMs torque was 340 vs. 260 and 5k was 460 vs. 410.
 
I too can confirm that the biggest gain in Low End Response was an Cyclone IM for me. Not only Torque but also throttle response were both greatly improved by it.

I've got one in an GVR4 with an Group N JDM 4G63T and a 1G DSM with an standard 1G IM. Both are running B16G and the difference is night and day in my opinion - already sourced a second Cyclone IM ;).
 
So I indeed made the change to a vacuum/ecmlink actuated Cyclone manifold but have run into a few walls..

Is anybody running one AND speed density, and is willing to share their VE table? I just want to confirm that WHAT i am seeing is correct for when its running in boost with the single long runner.. I have had to add 10% fuel from the 1g in those spots. Once both runners are in play, numbers are almost identical to the 1g.

Also actuating by rpm alone seems to have put me in the unexpected situation of what SOUNDS like compressor surge in 5th at 3000rpm and above 20psi, when only one runner is open. I did not think it was possible to surge a 16g even at full chat, but perhaps it does flow enough at low rpm..

Overall, there must be something going on because its not impressive like its been made to sound but I am still working on it. Too bad it is getting late in the year and she will sleep for the next 7 months.
 
So I indeed made the change to a vacuum/ecmlink actuated Cyclone manifold but have run into a few walls..

Is anybody running one AND speed density, and is willing to share their VE table? I just want to confirm that WHAT i am seeing is correct for when its running in boost with the single long runner.. I have had to add 10% fuel from the 1g in those spots. Once both runners are in play, numbers are almost identical to the 1g.

Also actuating by rpm alone seems to have put me in the unexpected situation of what SOUNDS like compressor surge in 5th at 3000rpm and above 20psi, when only one runner is open. I did not think it was possible to surge a 16g even at full chat, but perhaps it does flow enough at low rpm..

Overall, there must be something going on because its not impressive like its been made to sound but I am still working on it. Too bad it is getting late in the year and she will sleep for the next 7 months.

About 8 years ago I was running SD, e316G, and the cyclone on my 1G. I bounced between tunerpro and Jackal SD though, and their SD works very different from ECMLinks. I also actuated mine purely by rpm but at 5500, which is what the jdm ecu that it comes off of aims for as well.


Couldn’t hurt to have it actuate later just as a “sh**s and giggles” thing. But I remember having to add a decent amount of fuel from 3-5k. Again this SD works different than ECMLink but VE was pretty high.
 
I'll have to play around with it a bit more next year but so far, it's not been working out great. My car is quicker when it's using both runners than if I kept the shorts closed until 5000.
I would have thought that, given I was adding 8-10% more fuel, I would be getting more power but it actually feels like it's running on half the boost. Hauls more ass again the moment I put activation back down to 1500 and 7psi.

My next adventure will be seeing if I need to run more timing on the fresher charge but it will have to wait.
 
Too bad I can't use the cyclone mani on a 7 bolt head otherwise I'd love to play around with the torque valve actuation.
 
Well nobody did.
Jk.
When I went from a 16g to hta68 v1 I couldn’t tell any difference.
I’ve never ran a 68hta but I’ve heard this numerous times. A buddy of mine made the switch after years of a 16g, 68hta was enough to get the car to the 10.96 mark picking up a few tenths so it’s obviously working but he repeatedly stated spool and feel were no different.
 
And from what I have read (which is little), the v3 spools similar to the v1.
So I am not gaining anything in faster spinup but the freight train will possibly grenade my trans.. maybe I should bite the bullet and find myself an external o2 housing over the winter. The snail has been sitting in the bag for half a year.

Anybody with a cyclone willing to share their timing table?
 
How would spool compare between the 68HTA V3 51S and the Green UHF 57S ? This Green flows 6lbs more air. My build is for Sunday rips and lapping. On a road course the revs will stay high so not sure how less responsive this green will be and I can conservatively rev to 8500 rpm. What is the hp difference?
 
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