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2G Had ngk 9es’s and stuttering

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Turbolence56

Proven Member
68
7
Jul 14, 2021
North_Carolina
Quick question regarding plugs

had some stuttering around 3-4K in 4th and 5th gear on freeway driving like car was being held back.
Problem was originally spark plug wires wasn’t seated well in the spark plug hole causing p0303 misfire. I reseated the wire cleared the code and checked all the wires which looked good. No arcing noted but car still hesitated in the 3-4K rpm range in higher gears. Pulled well to redline in first though.
So I decided to change my spark plugs as it is cheap. I bought ngk bpr6es as they were recommended on this board and local.my question this.

I have seen a lot of people run colder plugs, when I went to install me new plugs my car had NGK 9es’s

my car is far from stock.
For arguments sake. 1000cc injectors, ecm link, all bolt on’s, front mount intercooler, fp dp, fp manifold, fp hta68 turbo up grade with internal gate at 15 psi, walbro 225 fuel pump. Etc

had bpr 9es’s
Putting in bpr 6es’s gapped at .028

am I going to be screwed and cars going to run like ass? Cause 9es are really cold. And 6es are oem. Should I gap them smaller if I experience ignition break up, up top.

man I going to start knocking or detonating since these aren’t as cold? Don’t want to blow up the motor.
 
I found my answers disregard. I’m going to stay with the bpr6es since I’m not running anything more than 15 psi despite my mods. If I need to I will go to 7es. Car was once tuned on high-ish boost at like 27 psi so I can see the 9es.
 
For reference, (when my car IS running), I run 40 psi and run BR8ES's, but no colder, and I gap mine at .018".
 
My first thought before reading the whole things was '9s are really cold, what's he running. Regardless, when you pull the bpr9es you should be able to see if they were the right heat range for your engine's tune by the condition of the plug.
 
yeah 9's are way too cold for most dsm setups.
if you had a high compression motor and were pushing your car to the limit of 91 octane
maybe,you could find a need for that cold of a plug.
If you had something better than link, you could probably go 1 range colder and pick up some timing. But as far as i know, link doesn't have the ability to run different timing for different gears.
if you don't at least have gear compensation, any advance in the low gears will usually cause knock in the high gears
 
So I’m good with the Ngk bpr6es.

I took it for a spin tonight, seems to idle much better with less mis-firing for sure the 9es were black and fouled, will know tomorrow weather the hesitation in 4th and 5th still exist. Im leaning for a boost like some where as before the plug change I couldn’t get passed 5k in 3rd and 4th gear. Like it was literally stopping me from going up any higher. Will do a boost leak test if the plugs don’t fix the issue.

will report back tomorrow. I feel I’m safe with the 6es’s correct me if I’m wrong.
 
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Still having hesitation after the B6RS. But car drives fine in the upper RPM’s ranges now. Still bucks and sputters in the 2-3k range. After getting passed that it runs fine. Under load in 5th gear at 50 mph it bucks a lot, whole car shakes.

Can I have a boost leak only in the 2-3.5k range? And it clear up in higher RPM’s? Car idles fine, pulls well in 1st and 2nd, no bucking until under load cruising in upper gears.

Case in point, driving in 5th at 65 mph and RPM’s at 3k if I step on it full pedal it Bogs and stutters shaking entire car. Then after 4K or higher it’s fine. Happens on 4th as well in back roads at like 45mph.

Basically if I was cruising on the freeway in 5th gear at 65 mph i get constant bog, no real power and the car rattles.

Bad MAF? Fouled brand new b6rs?, boost leak? I’m stumped and help would be great.
 
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Will do Steve, on the posting of a file off dsm link. As for the p0303 miss fire it ended up being that the number 3 cylinder injector wire wasn’t seated all the way into the spark plug well. It didn’t go around the valve cover lip so it was proud on the Valve cover 1/4 of an inch or so. I pushed it back down and it has never come back. I then changed the plugs to br6es. Could still very well be an ignition issue though. I need to install ecm link on my Lap top at home first before I can post a log.
 
Thank you. I read that thread before linking it here.

The important stuff to me was it's a 6 bolt swap so now I want to see how you have the ECU setup and what's happening when it starts acting up. The log will help with a few clues.
 
Hey steve, I finally setup up my ecmlink on my laptop. However, I will be honest I need to really learn the ecmlink software to understand what's going on with my car. I drove it around today as it was a nice day and captured some logs. Will post them up if possible once I figure out how to load them in this thread.
 

Attachments

  • log.2021.12.31-05.elg
    55.1 KB · Views: 14
Car is still having issues in the 2-4K range in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. I hooked up my lap top and ran ecmlink to data log. Now my car idles high, like 1300-1500 rpm’s. Is this common? Could this be a symptom of my issues of sputtering?

I had a idle log saved will have to do another one as it got deleted, but it idles at 1k when I was data logging. All throughout the logs and all day so far today idle has been higher 1300-1500? I’m confused 😂
 
I saw that you have the idle set to 1k but even when it's up to temp and idling there your ISC steps are high and the real IPS isn't closed. That leads me to think that your TB isn't adjusted correctly and your BISS needs to be opened a bit (and reset the Fast Idle Table). Regardless of the suggestion to just dial the TPS voltage to 0.63v I like having the TPS adjusted to where the IPS switches, that way I know for sure what the general butterfly angle is for some TPS voltage. Also make sure that you have some slack in your throttle cables.

Did you set up DSMLink or someone else.

You have modified the tables for when the ECU is in open loop vs closed and it looks to me like the car is in closed loop during acceleration which would be bad. If anything you might want the car in open loop all the time when your tuning the AFR and timing. If looks like your staying the close loop all the way to 4k in that log. Try resetting those tables and see how is performs.

Save and label your logs so you can restore your settings from a given log as you change things.
 
Yeah someone else tuned this car before me, I haven’t touched anything at this point. I need the car to run so I’m going to be judicious with my changes. I appreciate all the help guys. I’m new to tuning never, tuned in my life so this is uncharted territory for me. I’m a good wrencher, but not a tuner. I’m willing to learn though, so will take any recommendations I can get.

At Imback

Mod list. That I’m aware of
6 bolt swapped
Ecmlink v3
Manual boost controller
Bpr6es plugs
1000cc fic injectors
FP down pipe 3 inch
3 inch exhaust
FP exhaust manifold
FP hta 68 turbo with internal gate re-route to DP
Gate set at 15 psi
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Large fmic
On MAF still
Large intake pipe.

I would like to get this car running well, and up the boost at some point down the line, when I get the tuning issues solved.

At Steve. I thought I might be in closed loop. Again I’m new to all this tuning stuff so I’m a little scared, can’t have my car not running but will learn all I can.

Could my issues be spark, ignition related or all tuning related?
 
Right now because it's in closed loop under load the target AFR is really lean and I wouldn't be surprised it's misfiring. Just reset the Direct Access OpenLoopThresholds back to stock and see what happens.
 
Regarding setting the open loop thresholds back to stock do I just click rest all and then click copy to ecu button.

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Also if I wanted to revert back to these current settings I just click copy all to ecu if resetting to stock doesn’t help fix the issues. I figured out that the black left right arrows above allows to toggle between stock and my current settings.

Would going back to stock settings in open loop threshold keep me in open loop instead of closed? Also if I want to be in open loop why don’t I just lock it in open loop mode in the misc tab check box? Sorry if these questions are super newb. I’m search, reading and learning all I can.
 
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I don’t want to clutter the newbie thread with needless info so if this thread needs to be moved or restarted in the tuning forum I’m ok starting a new thread.

I added some more data to the stream, regarding my high idle, I think I should get that settled first right.

I have a few questions though.
TPS volts should be 0.63 regardless of 1g or 2g? Since I have a six bolt 1g swapped in my 2g it is still 0.63volts correct.

In link it is reading 0.59 (with car off and key in on position) So I’m off for sure. I plan to loosen the two bolts on the tps and rotate it till it reads 0.63v in link.

As for the throttle linkage I have no play at all in the gas pedal, but I can flex the throttle cable a little at the throttle body, am I to tight here? Should I adjust the throttle cable hold down on the back manifold and slide it forward a bit for more slack?

As for the Bisss screw, it is pretty far in already here is a picture. Ground out the ecu pin in link (check box with car idling and everything off with no load) and turn clockwise in to lower idle to 750 rpm’s. Once the tps is calibrated and throttle slack is good. Then uncheck ground ecu pin in link correct?

Could the tps volts being off / low cause some leaning out closed loop issues?

Fixing the idle seems like a smart start to me though. Then go after the open loop thresholds reset.

Am I wrong in this approach?

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I have a few questions though.
TPS volts should be 0.63 regardless of 1g or 2g? Since I have a six bolt 1g swapped in my 2g it is still 0.63volts correct.

In link it is reading 0.59 (with car off and key in on position) So I’m off for sure. I plan to loosen the two bolts on the tps and rotate it till it reads 0.63v in link.

I have an opinion that differs with most, likely because it's more difficult to correctly perform. 1G's and 2G's have different Idle Position Switches and need to be adjusted differently but the result remains the same, they tell the ECU about the point where the throttle begins to open.

On a 1G the IPS is on the firewall facing side of the TB and serves as the throttle stop (The FSM strongly tells people to not touch the factory IPS adjustment because it's critical). The TPS is on the other side and just needs to be adjusted to a reference voltage. The ECU then figures out the correlation between the TPS voltage and the IPS switching.

On a 2G there is a Idle Speed Screw that is the throttle stop and again the FSM says don't touch it. The IPS is inside the 2G TPS and the TPS adjustment involves inserting a specific feeler gauge between the throttle stop screw and the butterfly pulley to open the throttle a specific amount and then move the TPS to find the switching point of it's IPS. Once you have you remove the feeler gauge and check that the IPS has switched closed. The ECU then figures out the correlation between the TPS voltage and the IPS switching.

As for the throttle linkage I have no play at all in the gas pedal, but I can flex the throttle cable a little at the throttle body, am I to tight here? Should I adjust the throttle cable hold down on the back manifold and slide it forward a bit for more slack?

There should be a small amount of play in the cable before it begins to move the throttle pulley. You check it at the butterfly pulley and it's adjustment is bolted to the manifold as you noted. I forget the spec off hand but it's a mm or two. Back the bolts off a bit and tap the bracket to adjust.

As for the BISS screw, it is pretty far in already here is a picture. Ground out the ecu pin in link (check box with car idling and everything off with no load) and turn clockwise in to lower idle to 750 rpm’s. Once the tps is calibrated and throttle slack is good. Then uncheck ground ecu pin in link correct?

That's the factory method but with DSMLink can just adjust it so that the ISC steps are 30 at warm idle. Note that you have changed the idle speed in DSMLink to 1000 RPM so that's what your target idle not 750.

I see RTV being used around the TB, hopefully none of it got into any of the air passages. It looks like a 1G TB but I don't see it's IPS and I can only see three wires of the TPS connector where a 2G TPS needs 4.
 
Thank you for the help Steve you have been very helpful so far an I appreciate it.

Here are better pictures of the engine bay, the tps has 4 wires black, green, yellow and red, so I assume it’s a 1g tb with 2g tps.

At present the tps and ISC in link are set at -6 and 104%. again none of this was actually me. I assume the 104% is to correct the 0.59 tps volts to corrected 0.63v. I also see the boxes checked for enabling idle switch operation and simulate idle switch in TPS, which is to work with the 2gb TPS / internal ISC switch.

I data logged a cold start to op temp idle and my car idles perfectly now. It has always idled well actually right at the target 1000rpms.
below is the data logged. Noticed that my ISCP was 119 with ign on and car off and down to 77 or so with car warm and at normal op temp? does it need to be at 30 at idle? how do I adjust it?

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here is the cold start idle log to fully warm idle. idle set at 1000rpms and it stayed well in that range. Not sure what the high idle was.
 

Attachments

  • log.2022.01.02-01.elg
    311.6 KB · Views: 15
Quick question regarding plugs

had some stuttering around 3-4K in 4th and 5th gear on freeway driving like car was being held back.
Problem was originally spark plug wires wasn’t seated well in the spark plug hole causing p0303 misfire. I reseated the wire cleared the code and checked all the wires which looked good. No arcing noted but car still hesitated in the 3-4K rpm range in higher gears. Pulled well to redline in first though.
So I decided to change my spark plugs as it is cheap. I bought ngk bpr6es as they were recommended on this board and local.my question this.

I have seen a lot of people run colder plugs, when I went to install me new plugs my car had NGK 9es’s

my car is far from stock.
For arguments sake. 1000cc injectors, ecm link, all bolt on’s, front mount intercooler, fp dp, fp manifold, fp hta68 turbo up grade with internal gate at 15 psi, walbro 225 fuel pump. Etc

had bpr 9es’s
Putting in bpr 6es’s gapped at .028

am I going to be screwed and cars going to run like ass? Cause 9es are really cold. And 6es are oem. Should I gap them smaller if I experience ignition break up, up top.

man I going to start knocking or detonating since these aren’t as cold? Don’t want to blow up the motor.
Every car is going to be different but for what it is worth, I run 7s, non-P, at a 0.17 gap. This engine is run on pump and E85 up to 35 psi. No misfire issues at all. I was tuned by Ricky at Rix Racing and he said their shop car has NGK 8 temp plugs and they run 8s on that car. 9s are simply not necessary for just about anyone. Get a set of 7s, gap them to 0.20ish and see what happens.
 
I’m currently running bkr6es gapped at .028. Sputtering is happening under load and cruising in 3rd, 4th and 5th. Car shakes like crazy, feels fine in first and some of second. Felt better with brand new plugs, but that was short lived. I smell a lot of fuel at Cruising speeds. Could be ignition still but no cels, never adjusted anything in link. So I’m not sure at the moment. I would like to narrow down the problem before just throwing money at it.

Currently new fuel filter, new Ngk br 6es, new front Bosch O2 sensor.
 
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I’m currently running bkr6es gapped at .028. Sputtering is happening under load and cruising in 3rd, 4th and 5th. Car shakes like crazy, feels fine in first and some of second. Felt better with brand new plugs, but that was short lived. I smell a lot of fuel at Cruising speeds. Could be ignition still but no cels, never adjusted anything in link. So I’m not sure at the moment. I would like to narrow down the problem before just throwing money at it.

Currently new fuel filter, new Ngk br 6es, new front Bosch O2 sensor.
Do you have a wideband to confirm your AFRs? How old are your ignitor/coilpacks?
 
Not sure on the the age of the ignitor or coil packs actually as I have only had the car since June. They could be going bad, same with the plug wires. I don’t want to have to buy new coils and plugs, and ignitor if those aren’t bad is all I’m saying. I will if I am pretty confident in that being the culprit.

As for wideband I have an aem afr gauge but don’t think the previous owner had it hooked up right as it’s not reading anything at the moment just 14.7 it doesn’t move.

Will look into the wide and though for sure, currently I believe I am on narrow band in link.

It feels like an ignition issue, as the car was running well in the summer, And progressively getting worse, I wish I had a local dsmer to swap some parts with.

Oem coils and Ngk wires are the best so I have read. Will look into those and see what happens.
 
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