Welcome to the site Marth . In the pictures you posted, it looks to me like something got dragged across the rail , I see deep scars and dents . I hope for your sake you haven't cracked the transfer case. By the color of the liquid, it is definitely transmission fluid. You`ll find out soon enough when you drop that case. Make sure to use the proper jack stands before going under that car. Safety first.

I’d say output shaft seal or d/s axle seal. You’ll have a better look if you pull the tcase

so, a few random thoughts:

red fluid is more common (in my opinion) with differential fluid, which I've commonly seen used in transfer cases. In any event this fluid could be transmission or transfer case fluid. Given the quantity that's leaking I would guess transmission fluid.

Assuming nothing is cracked, the transfer case can only leak from the following locations: input seal from transmission, output seal to driveshaft, fill plug, drain plug, case seal (the case is actually two pieces)

Given the location and quantity I think all of these can be eliminated except the input seal from the transmission.

Assuming nothing is cracked, the transmission could be leaking from either the drivers side front axle seal or the output shaft that goes into the transfer case.

I suspect the drivers side axle seal. Is it possible that your drivers side axle isn't installed? If someone jacked the drivers side up and removed that driveshaft without draining the transmission, then you jacked the front of the vehicle up, that would cause a spill like this. Hopefully that's what's going on here because if it isn't that seal I'd suspect something is cracked badly.

I'll let the experts weigh in on the possible/likely causes of this leak, but 2 things also come to mind when I look at these photos.

First, there don't appear to be any jack stands keeping the car up, only the floor jack. If you only jacked it up to have a look and take pictures and don't actually get under the car, that's ok, but if you do intend to get under it, you MUST use jack stands, even for "just a few seconds". And use the proper jack points, not body "rails" that aren't structural.

Second, I have a 1G AWD manual so maybe it's different from a 2G auto, but on mine the proper floor jack point is under the middle of the front cross member that's below and just behind the bottom of the radiator. You appear to be lifting the front of the car using the center member. Again, perhaps this is how it's supposed to be done on a 2G auto, but make sure this is so.

First off, the spot you are lifting the vehicle from is not a jack point. Place the floor jack either at the front of the North/South bar on the spot where the two large bolts attach it to the radiator support, or go from each frame rail at the pinch points, and use jack stands.

Pull the transfer case. Visually identify if it is the output shaft or the driver side axle seal that is pouring out ATF. Confirm that the output shaft is still fully in the transmission, if it is popped out it will piss ATF like that. It normally has a wire circlip on the end of it that engages into the lower pinion gear of the center differential, but it could have popped out or someone could have removed that circlip in the past from the center differential. The output shaft, if it is able to be pulled on and it freely moves more than 1/4" and it is not locked in to the center diff, then pop it with a dead blow hammer a few times to see if it clicks back in to the circlip in the center diff.

Confirm that the driver side half shaft is fully in the transmission and the bracket is tightly mounted to the engine block.


With the automatic transmission, the output shaft seal cannot be serviced from the outside of the transmission, it has to be fully disassembled (remove transmission from car, remove front differential cover, speed sensor, front diff bearing caps, remove passenger side axle seal/ bearing support, remove front diff. Then idler gear removal, remove center diff cover, remove center diff, remove lower bearing support, remove output pinion shaft and output shaft, remove output shaft seal, and then install new seal and go backwards from above -- see automatic transmission factory service manual in link here:
https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1...c-transmission-factory-service-manual.517361/

Man, what a PITA if it is an output shaft seal..........
Thanks for the input Tim!

1990TSIAWDTALON said:

Man, what a PITA if it is an output shaft seal..........
Thanks for the input Tim!

Click to expand...

And I thought I had a challenge ahead fixing my manual trans!

Like I said before, pull off transfer case and inspect if it is coming from the half shaft driver side axle seal, or the output shaft seal and confirm that the output shaft is fully installed first.

If you look in the link I have in post #6, you will go to Page 53 and see the overview, then the teardown is shown up to page 64 showing the output shaft seal then reassembly from page 64-83.
Steps:
Disassembly: Pg 53-64
6,7,8,9, let valve body hang, 16-20, 26,27,29,51-60

Steps:
Reassembly: Pg 64-83
1 if replacing passenger axle seal, 2 if replacing output shaft seal, 3,4,11,13-15, 22,52-54, 61-62, 67-69, 79-81, 84, 90 install output shaft with dead blow hammer.

The transmission must be out of the vehicle for this as well.

I really think that if this is your first time doing anything on a car, this is definitely going to be over your head if you have to tear down the auto trans. I build transmissions as a profession.

Glad everyone is telling this young fellow the importance of using jack stands. DO NOT...I repeat DO NOT get under that car without them. Something that may be helpful to you is taking pictures as you go along. This will give you something to look back on when you re-install ...

Ok guys!

sorry for being MIA. I just didn’t wanna spam the thread

so updates so far in a nutshell: I didn’t open the transfer case today because I just came home (I went to buy the jacks). I’ll probably end up opening up the transfer case tomorrow since it’s getting dark and cold out

Anyway just a few thoughts on my head after reading this and I wanted to give more details of what’s happening. So as you guys know when I lift it on a jack it starts leaking but it starts leaking a lot as if some drain plug is missing you know? My dad suspects the leak is coming from the top of the transfer case, where it’s connected to the transmission.

I really appreciate everyone’s safety concerns, a real community!, and I want everyone to know that I’d never get under a car without the jacks haha. I just took pics from afar and tried sliding a stick with my phone to get some up close. Tomorrow I’ll be able to get better pics when I do the disassembly.

sorry for leaving you guys in the dark. I just didn’t want to spam but I’ve been reading everyone’s comments!! Thank you so much. I didn’t expect such quick responses. I’ll take a lot of pics tomorrow for personal documentation and for some pics that may help you guys see a better picture tomorrow. Thanks again

Also guys I just wanna make sure that you guys know the car was driven from Cali to Arizona 300+ miles like a week ago. When the car was leveled, the transmission fluid would only drip a little bit but when jacked up, it leaked as if a drain plug was missing

First, I am SO glad to hear that you took everyone's advice and got a pair of jack stands. Learn how to use them properly and where to position them, and ALWAYS use them if you get under the car for even a second. Not that it's the primary concern but I bet that insurance companies don't cover accidents caused by improper procedure, which not using stands is if getting under the car.

Anyway, I'm in no way an expert so if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but if you say that it only leaks a lot when the car is lifted from the front, then it sounds to me like it might be a bad output shaft seal on the transfer case, which is actually a known issue that led to a famous recall over 20 years ago but which since I'm guessing you're not the original owner you might not know about. It doesn't leak that much if the car is level, but if it's angled so the rear is lower than the front, and it's a bad seal, it'll leak, because of gravity.

When you remove the transfer case you'll find out right away if this is where the leak is coming from. You don't have to actually open it up to see this. Again, I'm no expert and perhaps the leak is coming from somewhere else (made more likely by its color, which looks more like ATF than t-case oil), but this would be my first guess based on what I've learned about DSM's driveline, especially AWD.

I recently removed my t-case and manual trans myself to replace the clutch. I was fortunate that nothing was leaking from anywhere, but I had the car looked at back when they issued the recall and the dealer said it looked fine. I'm actually going to replace this seal soon as preventive maintenance.

Btw, it can't leak from the top of the t-case because that's not where it connects to anything. It connects to the trans from its right side, and the propeller shaft from its rear.

Good luck, take it slow, be methodical, and be careful!

XC92 said:

First, I am SO glad to hear that you took everyone's advice and got a pair of jack stands. Learn how to use them properly and where to position them, and ALWAYS use them if you get under the car for even a second. Not that it's the primary concern but I bet that insurance companies don't cover accidents caused by improper procedure, which not using stands is if getting under the car.

Anyway, I'm in no way an expert so if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but if you say that it only leaks a lot when the car is lifted from the front, then it sounds to me like it might be a bad output shaft seal on the transfer case, which is actually a known issue that led to a famous recall over 20 years ago but which since I'm guessing you're not the original owner you might not know about. It doesn't leak that much if the car is level, but if it's angled so the rear is lower than the front, and it's a bad seal, it'll leak, because of gravity.

When you remove the transfer case you'll find out right away if this is where the leak is coming from. You don't have to actually open it up to see this. Again, I'm no expert and perhaps the leak is coming from somewhere else (made more likely by its color, which looks more like ATF than t-case oil), but this would be my first guess based on what I've learned about DSM's driveline, especially AWD.

I recently removed my t-case and manual trans myself to replace the clutch. I was fortunate that nothing was leaking from anywhere, but I had the car looked at back when they issued the recall and the dealer said it looked fine. I'm actually going to replace this seal soon as preventive maintenance.

Btw, it can't leak from the top of the t-case because that's not where it connects to anything. It connects to the trans from its right side, and the propeller shaft from its rear.

Good luck, take it slow, be methodical, and be careful!

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Hey man my transmission oil is pretty much gone so does that mean the transfer case is taking the transmission oil to where it connects from the Potentially bad output shaft seal? Or does the transfer case use its own oil...? Do you have a visual diagram of this btw? I’m gonna look through the manual twicks posted overnight so maybe it’s in there. It’d help since this is a little hard for me but I’m determined to get to the bottom of it.

Also guys update:


I just stuck my arm under the engine bay to check and take pics and there was a little wet spot on my cardboard. Either this is the same leak (maybe not bc the transmission oil might be all gone from yesterday’s leak) or a different leak from the motor? Can’t say but I took some pics (Car is leveled in these pics). Let me know if the wet spot isn’t visible. The second pic is basically me sticking my arm right under the wet spot and taking a pic of above. Looks like the turbo oil line? Not sure

Marth said:

Hey man my transmission oil is pretty much gone so does that mean the transfer case is taking the transmission oil to where it connects from the Potentially bad output shaft seal? Or does the transfer case use its own oil...? Do you have a visual diagram of this btw? I’m gonna look through the manual twicks posted overnight so maybe it’s in there. It’d help since this is a little hard for me but I’m determined to get to the bottom of it.

Click to expand...

No the trans and t-case oil are completely separate and isolated from each other. Only way I can see how they could mix is if there's a leak in the trans output seal AND t-case input seal and even then there would have to be positive pressure in one direction or another for it to happen.

I didn't notice that you said above that your trans oil is almost gone. If so and there's also oil leaking out your t-case rear seal then that's a separate issue. It's just that you said this mostly happens when you raise the front of the car that made me suspect the rear t-case seal.

I'm in no way, shape or form a trans expert, let alone an auto trans which I wouldn't touch if my life depended on it (those things are scary!). Perhaps the way the internals of a DSM's auto trans are set up makes a leak more pronounced when the front of the car is raised. I'm not the one to ask about that.

Btw how are you sure that the trans oil is nearly gone and not the t-case oil? I assume by pulling the dipstick and seeing no oil? But even if so, couldn't that mean the oil's pretty low, but not completely gone? In any case, you'll have to pull the t-case to find out and that should tell you.

Marth said:

Also guys update:


I just stuck my arm under the engine bay to check and take pics and there was a little wet spot on my cardboard. Either this is the same leak (maybe not bc the transmission oil might be all gone from yesterday’s leak) or a different leak from the motor? Can’t say but I took some pics (Car is leveled in these pics). Let me know if the wet spot isn’t visible. The second pic is basically me sticking my arm right under the wet spot and taking a pic of above. Looks like the turbo oil line? Not sure

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In the first pic, is the leaked fluid on the longish piece of cardboard closest to the lens, in the center? If so it doesn't look at all like the oil in the other pics you previously posted, being clear or grayish. I don't see any fluid in the second pic, just what looks like reddish-orange grease, and I have no idea what that is or where it's even located. That's not oil. Sounds like your car might have multiple leaks.

Prior to seeing these leaks, were there any issues with the car? Do you know its service history and if the t-case recall was ever dealt with (although it being 22 years later that may not matter anymore)? Do you know when the last time these fluids were replaced, maybe seals, trans or t-case work done, and by whom? Things don't just "happen" and there's always a reason. Reviewing the use, repair and maintenance history of a car is one part of finding out.

Also, on that 300 mile drive, did you hit any potholes, large bumps or road debris? That could do it and cause multiple leaks. Anything else happen that could have damaged the underbody?

Btw I just noticed that in the first pic there was no evident fluid leak on the bell housing opening where you can see part of the drive plate ring gear. If your trans output shaft was leaking then you might see some fluid there. Or not. Again, not an expert. Just trying to help with ideas.

XC92 said:

No the trans and t-case oil are completely separate and isolated from each other. Only way I can see how they could mix is if there's a leak in the trans output seal AND t-case input seal and even then there would have to be positive pressure in one direction or another for it to happen.

I didn't notice that you said above that your trans oil is almost gone. If so and there's also oil leaking out your t-case rear seal then that's a separate issue. It's just that you said this mostly happens when you raise the front of the car that made me suspect the rear t-case seal.

I'm in no way, shape or form a trans expert, let alone an auto trans which I wouldn't touch if my life depended on it (those things are scary!). Perhaps the way the internals of a DSM's auto trans are set up makes a leak more pronounced when the front of the car is raised. I'm not the one to ask about that.

Btw how are you sure that the trans oil is nearly gone and not the t-case oil? I assume by pulling the dipstick and seeing no oil? But even if so, couldn't that mean the oil's pretty low, but not completely gone? In any case, you'll have to pull the t-case to find out and that should tell you.

Click to expand...

Hey yeah. I pulled the transmission oil dipstick and noticed there was no oil on the dipstick after the leak emptied out. Does the t-case have a container where it’s oil is held?

XC92 said:

In the first pic, is the leaked fluid on the longish piece of cardboard closest to the lens, in the center? If so it doesn't look at all like the oil in the other pics you previously posted, being clear or grayish. I don't see any fluid in the second pic, just what looks like reddish-orange grease, and I have no idea what that is or where it's even located. That's not oil. Sounds like your car might have multiple leaks.

Prior to seeing these leaks, were there any issues with the car? Do you know its service history and if the t-case recall was ever dealt with (although it being 22 years later that may not matter anymore)? Do you know when the last time these fluids were replaced, maybe seals, trans or t-case work done, and by whom? Things don't just "happen" and there's always a reason. Reviewing the use, repair and maintenance history of a car is one part of finding out.

Also, on that 300 mile drive, did you hit any potholes, large bumps or road debris? That could do it and cause multiple leaks. Anything else happen that could have damaged the underbody?

Btw I just noticed that in the first pic there was no evident fluid leak on the bell housing opening where you can see part of the drive plate ring gear. If your trans output shaft was leaking then you might see some fluid there. Or not. Again, not an expert. Just trying to help with ideas.

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Yup it’s that leak. No issues, service history, or even recalls. Last owner is surprised this leak happened (or is lying). I never hit or damaged the car on the 300 mile trip either. A past owner possibly could have but the last owner didn’t say anyone damaged the under and no problems show up on the car fax report too

Marth said:

Hey yeah. I pulled the transmission oil dipstick and noticed there was no oil on the dipstick after the leak emptied out. Does the t-case have a container where it’s oil is held?

Click to expand...

Like I wrote this doesn't necessarily mean that there's no fluid, just that it's well below the minimum. My guess that it's the t-case is just that, a guess, by a non-expert, so it's probably not that. But like I wrote when you pull the t-case you'll know if it's this or the trans.

Btw you don't even have to pull the t-case to confirm this. The oil "container" is the t-case itself, its purpose being to lubricate everything and dissipate heat. The gears swim in it. It has a drain plug on the bottom, pretty large like 24mm or so. You can't miss it. If you crack it open a bit, fluid will come out, and if it's the same color as the leak, it could be that.

Another method is to remove the fill plug, which is higher and on the front. You'll absolutely need the car on stands to get to it safely. But if you open it, if a little oil spills out, like a few drops, or if carefully sticking a screwdriver or something thin and solid (that has absolutely no chance of falling in or else you'll have to fish it out with a magnet and hope that doesn't fall in too, or take it apart) a few inches in it and taking it out shows fluid, then it's probably not leaking oil, at least not much.

With the car raised it's less likely to spill out but you can get a sense of how full it is by inserting something and removing, sort of like a makeshift dipstick. It'll also tell you the color and thickness. T-cases, rear diffs and manual trans are filled until oil spills out the fill hole, so if there's oil at that level, it's full.

Also, you're also supposed to drain the t-case before removing it, so oil won't spill out the rear seal once the prop shaft is removed from it. Also makes it lighter and easier to hold. But you can also hold the rear a bit higher than the front to avoid spills, if you'd rather not drain the oil.

I can't believe I'm giving all this advice. I'm still a newbie myself, but I've picked some things up.

Marth said:

Yup it’s that leak. No issues, service history, or even recalls. Last owner is surprised this leak happened (or is lying). I never hit or damaged the car on the 300 mile trip either. A past owner possibly could have but the last owner didn’t say anyone damaged the under and no problems show up on the car fax report too

Click to expand...

Are you sure it's oil and not water? I recently thought I had a leak under the mid-section of the car (which generally means the fuel or brake lines, neither good) because there was this small pool of liquid under it when I moved the car. Today when running the car I looked under and realized that it was likely either condensation on the exhaust pipe or water vapor in it and leaking out.

Maybe some water had pooled somewhere and raising the front drained it out, from rain, melting snow, washing the car, etc.? Or, if it is oil or fluid, maybe some spilled a while back into some recess and raising the front also drained it? Have the brake lines been bled recently? Brake fluid is clear. Old engine oil is dark. Steering fluid is often pink.

You don’t need to drain the tcase if you don’t have to. Just leave the driveshaft yoke in there and prop the back so it’s higher when you leave it on the ground.

Looks like the turbo drain on the oil pan or the oil pan itself is leaking (pan looks wet in the second pic). If you raise the front high enough, you can replace that gasket. If not just wait until the next oil change.

Tcase and trans fluid will not mix together.

so, a lot of posts since I last posted and I only skimmed what was said, but a couple things. 1: I forgot you said you have an auto, ATX fluid is really commonly red. I would bet that's ATF considering you said your trans is empty. It's 99.9% not the rear seal on the t-case as some have suggested as that would require the fluid to flow quite a bit uphill to get to where it's dripping off the t-case. So even though that's a common leak point on these cars and could be leaking on your car, you have a bigger leak somewhere else to fix first. The orange stuff you showed is the turbo oil return line meeting the oil pan. Those are super common to leak. Remove the return line, clean all that RTV off and make sure the two surfaces are perfectly clean and flat, get new OEM gaskets (all three, the paper gasket and the two crush washers which need to be replaced every time you remove those bolts) and then torque to spec.

I'm pretty confident it's either a cracked transmission housing, the drivers side front axle seal, or the output shaft seal that drives the transfer case. You can take the transfer case out without draining the fluid but I wouldn't bother as it's a used car and you don't know when the last time the transfer case fluid was changed. Assume everything the previous owner told you was a lie at this point. Also, while you have the t-case out I would just replace the two seals on it anyways since they're like 10 dollars each, as well as the two seals on the transmission on that side. I'd probably change out the driveshaft u joint and yoke as well and put jbweld on the freeze plug of the joint to make sure it doesn't leak out that either.

tstkl said:

so, a lot of posts since I last posted and I only skimmed what was said, but a couple things. 1: I forgot you said you have an auto, ATX fluid is really commonly red. I would bet that's ATF considering you said your trans is empty. It's 99.9% not the rear seal on the t-case as some have suggested as that would require the fluid to flow quite a bit uphill to get to where it's dripping off the t-case. So even though that's a common leak point on these cars and could be leaking on your car, you have a bigger leak somewhere else to fix first. The orange stuff you showed is the turbo oil return line meeting the oil pan. Those are super common to leak. Remove the return line, clean all that RTV off and make sure the two surfaces are perfectly clean and flat, get new OEM gaskets (all three, the paper gasket and the two crush washers which need to be replaced every time you remove those bolts) and then torque to spec.

I'm pretty confident it's either a cracked transmission housing, the drivers side front axle seal, or the output shaft seal that drives the transfer case. You can take the transfer case out without draining the fluid but I wouldn't bother as it's a used car and you don't know when the last time the transfer case fluid was changed. Assume everything the previous owner told you was a lie at this point. Also, while you have the t-case out I would just replace the two seals on it anyways since they're like 10 dollars each, as well as the two seals on the transmission on that side. I'd probably change out the driveshaft u joint and yoke as well and put jbweld on the freeze plug of the joint to make sure it doesn't leak out that either.

Click to expand...

There are no more driveshaft slip yoke recall kits, they are discontinued.

The automatic transmission output shaft seal does not come out from the outside of the bellhousing, it has to be removed and disassembled to be serviced, hence why I made the extremely detailed post earlier. The halfshaft axle seal can be removed and replaced outside the trans, but you still need to remove the transfer case as well as the halfshaft assembly to inspect and service that axle seal. So either way he needs to remove the transfer case and like I mentioned before, to check the halfshaft and mounting bracket to make sure both bolts are installed and tight and the bracket is PROPERLY mounted either with the AC bracket or the necessary spacer so the bracket sits squarely against the block and is not tweaking the halfshaft.

The output shaft can be popped out of the center diff like I mentioned earlier, which would make it leak severely if the tcase mounting bolts are loose or the input sleeve bearings are shot inside the transfer case.

Jack it up, remove tcase, start there. Then we can give you a better direction to go.

Good think I have 3 yokes then, haha. I bet everyone who bought the yoke kits to salvage the u joints and threw away the yokes is regretting that now. Wasn't aware the difference with the atx output shafts, good to know. I still feel like it's most likely the half shaft seal, just a guess though. Agreed we won't know until he gets it up in the air and the t-case out.

Hey Marth, did you remove the t-case and find out what the source of the leak was?

Hey guys yeah, sorry for the late response I got carried away with life. The leak was a loose CV axel. Working on fixing that too. Apparently the carrier bearing wasn’t fully bolted on (bolts weren’t even there so I ordered New ones). Now only one hole seems to exist for the carrier bearing for the cv axel (I’ll create a separate thread to keep it clean)

The bolt is broken inside that hole. I’d bet you don’t have the ac compressor bracket??? The bracket is a spacer for that hole and if you try to tighten it, it just snaps the bolt. You can extract it with the right tools. Reverse drill bit on a flexible extension. Be careful and keep the bit centered. When installing the bolt, use a stack of washers for the one closest to the drivers side.

So I’m missing the ac compressor bracket? Maybe that’s why it’s not fitting in? Could you link me to a diagram?

TK's9d2TSi said:

The bolt is broken inside that hole. I’d bet you don’t have the ac compressor bracket??? The bracket is a spacer for that hole and if you try to tighten it, it just snaps the bolt. You can extract it with the right tools. Reverse drill bit on a flexible extension. Be careful and keep the bit centered. When installing the bolt, use a stack of washers for the one closest to the drivers side.

Click to expand...

Marth said:

So I’m missing the ac compressor bracket? Maybe that’s why it’s not fitting in? Could you link me to a diagram?

Click to expand...

Yes you’re missing the ac compressor bracket. I don’t have a diagram but you can see the gap below. I wouldn’t drive it that way because it will vibrate and possibly break the one bolt holding it on.