1G Transmission keeps popping out of first gear

XC92 · Sep 25, 2020

I'm currently in the process of repairing and restoring my '92 Talon TSi AWD manual, aspects of which I've discussed in other threads. One major task is replacing the clutch, which faded to nothing around five years ago and ultimately forced me to store it in a neighbor's driveway since I had neither the funds nor the know-how and tools to get it fixed back then, and I had other pressing concerns. Now I have the funds, know-how, tools and time to fix it myself, and am about to start the clutch replacement.

The thing is, before the clutch failed, for around half a year, possibly longer, the transmission started popping out of 1st gear. Initially it was after the car was in motion for a while, but eventually it was immediately, forcing me to either hold it in 1st gear until it was time to shift into 2nd, or start the car in 2nd, very gingerly so as to not overstress the engine and transmission. This worked for a time as I kept putting off taking it to a shop, but eventually the clutch failed too, and that was that.

Obviously no one can diagnose the situation properly based only on this information, as it could be due to any of a number of causes, so I don't expect "hard" answers. But, my research into this indicates that it's likely due to either a problem with the shift cables or linkages or springs, the 1st gears shift fork, the 1st-2nd gear synchro, or the 1st gear ring. Is this a fairly complete and fair assessment?

Thing is, with the exception of the first potential cause, these all call for opening up the transmission and seeing what's going on in there, something I've never done before and which I understand is not to be taken lightly, especially if I want to actually fix what's broken. If it's the shift cables or linkages, I assume that I can fix that. What if it's the fork, is that fairly doable by a transmission newbie like me? If it's the actual synchro or gear, is that something I can undertake, with the right tools and patience?

Also, could the popping out of 1st issue have led to premature clutch wear, and could the hack solution I used to deal with this issue have caused yet other issues I might have to deal with and at least need to look at before putting everything back together? And how can I even tell if the cause is the shifting mechanism and not inside the transmission? Is there a way to tell?

pauleyman · Sep 25, 2020

Problem is the car won't move right now. You could rule out the cables by simply taking them off and manually shifting to first and see if it pops. If it does you will most certainly have to open it. It's tedious, requires a few special tools and patience. Its also a little specialized but that's kind of why we're here.
At a bare minimum you'll need some pin punches, lock ring(not snap ring) pliers, a 36mm socket. Nice to haves are gear pullers. If you're undoing the stacks you'll need bearing separators and a hydraulic press. Ive seen it done without but it sucks. You will also need some precision measuring tools if you're replacing bearings.

XC92 · Sep 25, 2020

Before I undertook all this I did a ton of research into what a transmission repair/rebuild entails, so I'm up on all that, at least on a theoretical and general level, e.g. tools, parts, function, procedures, skills, etc. What I'm more leery of is my own ability to do it and do it right, given that it has to be super-precise and correct or else, well, you know. I'm pretty sure I can do it, but not 100%.

And I'd have to buy some tools. Not sure what lock ring pliers are but if I need them I'll buy them. I have pin punches and intend to buy a micrometer set at HF (the one with 3 MMs from 0-3"), calipers as well if that's called for, and would likely loan pullers, separators, presses, etc., at an auto parts store.

Also, interestingly, a short length of plumber's solder?

The only stumbling block is the hydraulic press. They're not THAT expensive for the smaller ones, which is what I'd need, but I have nowhere to store one so buying one is not an option. I've seen plans online for building a mini tabletop press using a bottle jack, which I have (6 ton), but I have no idea where to buy the parts, let alone fabricate them (although I have steel drill bits).

Shouldn't it be possible to pull most or all the gears, hubs, etc., using 2 or 3-jaw bearing pullers, or those encircling ones that consist of 2 semi-circles that taper to a narrow opening that you join, that you use either a large hand wrench or an impact wrench (which I have) to turn?

As for diagnosing what's causing this, you think that manually shifting the transmission into 1st using my hands would suffice, and if the problem is internal to the transmission, it should pop out of 1st even if there's no load on its output and no power is coming into its input shaft? I assumed that there needed to be a "dynamic" load on it to pop out of 1st.

I "think" that back when the clutch was still ok, when I shifted to 1st with the pedal pressed, the shifter stayed in 1st, and only popped out when I released the pedal, so it only popped out when under load and receiving power. After the clutch went, I could freely shift to any gear, including 1st, with or without the clutch pedal pressed, and none popped out, since there was no load on the transmission and no power coming into it. So I'm not sure this test would show anything.

However, does this in itself help reveal where the problem lies?

Mech Addict · Sep 25, 2020

I can certainly relate. My 90 gsx grinds into first right now; although my clutch has been working alright, I expect it's likely near the end of it's life. I will try to tolerate this condition through the winter, but have been considering repair options. Pretty sure the synchros are just wearing out. In looking through everything involved, and my time availablitiy, I'm likely to remove the tranny, ship it out for rebuild by experts (TMZ or Jack's both offer this type of service, likely others that I'm not aware of). Likely do the clutch myself before putting it all back together. That's still a lot of work for some hobby mechanics like me, and transmission is likely the most complex part of the car (mechanically, at least). I also feel like with the good manuals out there, I could get the tools and follow all the steps, and have it re-assembled with the pieces in the right places, but if it still had shifting gremlins, and I had to pull it back out, open it up..... That's where I start leaning toward the farm-it-to-the-experts alternative. Plus they can recognize defects that I could easily overlook while it's apart. If this car has been sitting for a long time, it comes down to your patience level and motivation to do all your own work. I'm sure plenty of members rebuild their own trans, and get satisfaction from doing so, but it's a considerable commitment.
Good luck!

pauleyman · Sep 25, 2020

XC92 said:
Before I undertook all this I did a ton of research into what a transmission repair/rebuild entails, so I'm up on all that, at least on a theoretical and general level, e.g. tools, parts, function, procedures, skills, etc. What I'm more leery of is my own ability to do it and do it right, given that it has to be super-precise and correct or else, well, you know. I'm pretty sure I can do it, but not 100%.

And I'd have to buy some tools. Not sure what lock ring pliers are but if I need them I'll buy them. I have pin punches and intend to buy a micrometer set at HF (the one with 3 MMs from 0-3"), calipers as well if that's called for, and would likely loan pullers, separators, presses, etc., at an auto parts store.

Also, interestingly, a short length of plumber's solder?

The only stumbling block is the hydraulic press. They're not THAT expensive for the smaller ones, which is what I'd need, but I have nowhere to store one so buying one is not an option. I've seen plans online for building a mini tabletop press using a bottle jack, which I have (6 ton), but I have no idea where to buy the parts, let alone fabricate them (although I have steel drill bits).

Shouldn't it be possible to pull most or all the gears, hubs, etc., using 2 or 3-jaw bearing pullers, or those encircling ones that consist of 2 semi-circles that taper to a narrow opening that you join, that you use either a large hand wrench or an impact wrench (which I have) to turn?

As for diagnosing what's causing this, you think that manually shifting the transmission into 1st using my hands would suffice, and if the problem is internal to the transmission, it should pop out of 1st even if there's no load on its output and no power is coming into its input shaft? I assumed that there needed to be a "dynamic" load on it to pop out of 1st.

I "think" that back when the clutch was still ok, when I shifted to 1st with the pedal pressed, the shifter stayed in 1st, and only popped out when I released the pedal, so it only popped out when under load and receiving power. After the clutch went, I could freely shift to any gear, including 1st, with or without the clutch pedal pressed, and none popped out, since there was no load on the transmission and no power coming into it. So I'm not sure this test would show anything.

However, does this in itself help reveal where the problem lies?

Thats what I meant. Under load. Problem is you cant do that. You would have to fix the clutch, reinstall the trans etc.

XC92 · Sep 25, 2020

Well, in theory, that's ok, and it's generally better to try to solve one rather than two problems at the same time if they're not likely to be directly related. But, taking the trans out, putting it back in, then taking it out again is a PITA, and I'd rather fix the 1st gear problem while I have it out.

I wonder if it's possible to use the old clutch to simulate power to the trans. The friction surface is likely all shot but I assume that the splines are still fine. I have no idea how much internal resistance a trans of this age and miles might have, though, especially with the oil out, and if this is feasible, and even if it is, if it would be useful since this wouldn't be "real" power input and there would be no external load, just the internal resistance.

XC92 · Sep 25, 2020

Mech Addict said:
I can certainly relate. My 90 gsx grinds into first right now; although my clutch has been working alright, I expect it's likely near the end of it's life. I will try to tolerate this condition through the winter, but have been considering repair options. Pretty sure the synchros are just wearing out. In looking through everything involved, and my time availablitiy, I'm likely to remove the tranny, ship it out for rebuild by experts (TMZ or Jack's both offer this type of service, likely others that I'm not aware of). Likely do the clutch myself before putting it all back together. That's still a lot of work for some hobby mechanics like me, and transmission is likely the most complex part of the car (mechanically, at least). I also feel like with the good manuals out there, I could get the tools and follow all the steps, and have it re-assembled with the pieces in the right places, but if it still had shifting gremlins, and I had to pull it back out, open it up..... That's where I start leaning toward the farm-it-to-the-experts alternative. Plus they can recognize defects that I could easily overlook while it's apart. If this car has been sitting for a long time, it comes down to your patience level and motivation to do all your own work. I'm sure plenty of members rebuild their own trans, and get satisfaction from doing so, but it's a considerable commitment.
Good luck!

The ideal way to fix this is to send it out, but that's a lot more money than I'm prepared to spend right now. Even a decent local shop quoted me something approaching $1000. If the trans is salvageable, and I don't see why it isn't since everything else worked fine last time the car ran, I'm pretty sure I can fix it, but it's going to take a while. I don't mind that, though. I've waited over 5 years, I can wait a few more months. I also might end up noticing other issues that need addressing while I'm at it. Of course, first I have to make sure that it is the trans and not the shifters.

Mech Addict · Sep 25, 2020

Sounds like the right attitude. And yes, I’m thinking more in the 2 grand range for my car, what with shipping and incidentals. In the balance of good, fast, and cheap, your willing to trade faster for cheaper, which can work fine. My car is “supposed” to be a DD, so I’m willing to spend a bit for the expert service and speed.
I look forward to following your repairs.

luv2rallye · Sep 25, 2020

Manual transaxle fixing/rebuild is not for the faint hearted and is definitely harder and more involved than others on here will ever admit (its harder than any engine stuff). {Everyone on here always says how its easy and anyone with a little dedication can do it. Well people on here never want to be caught saying anything is hard so they never will.} Example: If you don't set the bearing preloads/endplay correctly (using the solder method called out for in the factory manual), your entire effort was a waste of time. And then you must be able to get the correct thickness spacers as the result of that measurement.

I know a lot about engines but had never done anything on a transaxle. After paying $1200 to a local tranny shop and the same popout happened 1 year later, I decided to learn and do it right myself. Local tranny shops do terrible work, only concerned about how fast they can do it, not doing it right (after opening it up I saw all the things they did not do properly just to get it out the door quickly. Send out tranny shops do a great job however they cost a lot). I've rebuilt my tranny 3 times now in 15 years and have learned how to do it right - I would say I'm now a near expert on the FWD tranny (the transaxle is the weakest part of a DSM and breaks often which is even another reason to do it right). I learned by studying the factory manual, viewing this article (http://web.archive.org/web/20100627174759/http://www.twingles.com/ideck/rebuild3/dretranny.htm), and talking a lot to professional tranny mechanics (including twicks69 on here). If you're willing to take the time and learn, you'll need at minimum a 12 ton press and bear separator kit (the 2 semi-circles that taper to a narrow opening that you join) that you use with the press. You get them both at HF. Get the real factory manual off eBay for your model/year which has all the diagrams and specs you'll need including how to do the solder bear preload measurement (don't get an aftermarket manual which are missing most of this stuff). And you'll need plenty of time and patience.

I've seen popouts due to shifter cables not being clamped down (casings move) or throw incorrect, worn select lever shoe, shift fork shaved down (often caused by using skateboard bearings on shift cable ends), 36mm nuts loose, bearing preload/endplay incorrect, worn sync ring, or worn gear engagement teeth.

Here's some tips: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/f5m33-rebuild-dsm-fwd-transmission.317077/#post-151757065. Read the entire thread.

pauleyman · Sep 25, 2020

XC92 said:
The ideal way to fix this is to send it out, but that's a lot more money than I'm prepared to spend right now. Even a decent local shop quoted me something approaching $1000. If the trans is salvageable, and I don't see why it isn't since everything else worked fine last time the car ran, I'm pretty sure I can fix it, but it's going to take a while. I don't mind that, though. I've waited over 5 years, I can wait a few more months. I also might end up noticing other issues that need addressing while I'm at it. Of course, first I have to make sure that it is the trans and not the shifters.

Here is some quick and dirty info. When the trans it out pull on the input shaft. If it has play I can guarantee so does the intermediate where first gear rides. This isn't foolproof but if seen lots of people with trans that "shift good" and they have no idea how worn their stuff is. This is a huge reason why I think dsms have a bad reputation for reliability. They're abused to the point they simply wear out and break. I've even pointed this out to guys when changing a clutch. They almost always just send it and wonder why they break a trans later. And this was 15 to 20 years ago. I can't imagine how it is now.
I would at least pull the end cover off the trans. You can check the bearing clearances without going in too far. Hell with almost no special tools you can take it down to shafts. Inspect bearings. Check synchro specs etc. Its only if you have to take apart the shafts themselves will you need a press etc.

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

Check your cables and the select lever shoe first before pulling tranny. And Pauleyman is right. A press and bearing separator are only needed to pull apart the gear stacks (eg. to replace syncros, hubs, sliders, gears, bearings). You can inspect everything inside tranny, re-torque 36mm end nuts, replace forks, and even check/fix bearing preloads without pulling the stacks apart. So you could put off buying a press and bearing separator kit until you see if you need them.

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

Thanks all. I have to pull the trans to replace the clutch, so I might as well open it up to see if the popping out of 1st issue is due to something that doesn't require the stacks to be pulled apart. I suppose this would also be a good time to clean everything before closing it up and putting fresh new oil in. (If and when I do that, I'll ask questions about proper cleaning.)

I don't know if I have a 36mm socket, but I'll get one if I don't, not a big deal (impact, non-impact?). As for a press if I do need to pull and re-press bearings, it can't be done with a decent 2 or 3 jaw puller or bearing separator and one of those impact wrench-based pullers that has a large forcing screw, and to press them back on maybe use a bearing press kit with extra long side bolts?

Buying a hydraulic press isn't the issue, they're not THAT expensive. It's storing it when I'm done with it. I just don't have the space (although I suppose some can be taken apart and stored in a closet, I have a bike repair stand that's like that). Although, I have a neighbor who's very car-savvy who has a garage full of tools and he might have one (or I can buy one and store it there and he can use it). There's also the DIY option, but that's getting me off-track. If and when I get to this point, I'll figure it out then.

Btw, do any of the "send-out" trans shops that folks use here accept just the stacks for repair, to save on costs, and does this in fact save a decent amount of money? Or is that not a viable option?

I'm aware of the solder method, but what do you use to measure the correct spacing/thickness? Is a standard micrometer ok, or perhaps a caliper? Are the HF ones ok for this?

Also, I have the FSM, both the printed and PDF versions. I bought the former nearly 20 years ago and consult it regularly. I also have the Haynes, which is good for explaining certain procedures that the FSM glosses over, but it's clearly not nearly as thorough, and it barely touches on rebuilding a trans, in fact discouraging non-pros from trying.

But first let's see if I can fix this w/o taking the stacks apart.

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

XC92 said:
I don't know if I have a 36mm socket, but I'll get one if I don't, not a big deal (impact, non-impact?). As for a press if I do need to pull and re-press bearings, it can't be done with a decent 2 or 3 jaw puller or bearing separator and one of those impact wrench-based pullers that has a large forcing screw, and to press them back on maybe use a bearing press kit with extra long side bolts?

36mm impact socket is preferred. You'll have to get new 36mm nuts as they need to be staked (removing old ones destroys them). You can't use a jaw puller, you need a bearing separator and press due to all the gears etc are butted up against each other (I've got lots of pics that will help). However you can send the gear stacks out and avoid doing all this.

XC92 said:
Btw, do any of the "send-out" trans shops that folks use here accept just the stacks for repair, to save on costs, and does this in fact save a decent amount of money? Or is that not a viable option?

Yes send out shops like TMZ (twicks69 on here) often repair just gear stacks and you can then save serious money. But contact them first to see if they still do as many shops can no longer get parts and so will no longer accept them. I think TMZ (professional tranny shop) bought up all the spaces in the country for bearing preload/endplay so he's the one I'd recommend.

XC92 said:
I'm aware of the solder method, but what do you use to measure the correct spacing/thickness? Is a standard micrometer ok, or perhaps a caliper? Are the HF ones ok for this?

Yes those work fine. Make sure you use solder that doesn't expand after being crushed (test it first, the rosin core worked for me, the hollow ones expanded) and do the entire measurement multiple times (casings back together and torqued) and take the average. It takes a long time to do this but you will be glad you did later when it shifts like butter.

XC92 said:
Also, I have the FSM, both the printed and PDF versions. I bought the former nearly 20 years ago and consult it regularly. I also have the Haynes, which is good for explaining certain procedures that the FSM glosses over, but it's clearly not nearly as thorough, and it barely touches on rebuilding a trans, in fact discouraging non-pros from trying.

But first let's see if I can fix this w/o taking the stacks apart.

The FSM is the only way to go. Haynes and Chiltons are so terribly wrong and incomplete that IMHO they are worthless for tranny work. They also try to cover multiple years/models, etc so differences don't show up.

Take your time. Rushing through is your biggest enemy and you will pay for it big time (re-doing it all again). You have many experienced people on here that can help. I took many pics of everything (although mine is a 1999 FWD turbo).

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

Thanks. I suspected that the limiting factor was the length of the stacks and getting puller bolts long and strong enough to handle the forces required. Time to talk to my neighbor, then. He has a trans jack that he's offered to lend me, so I need to talk to him soon anyway.

I'll also look into sending out just the stacks, if it comes to it.

And, I find the H & C manuals to be useful supplements to the FSM, especially for images that the FSM doesn't have, as sometimes diagrams aren't enough to get a sense of how things really look in the car. When there's a discrepancy, I always go with the FSM. Used properly, they have some use.

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

Popping out is usually shaved down forks (https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/popping-out-of-4th-gear.290238/#post-151566175), or incorrect bearing preloads/endplay allowing input/intermediate shafts to move longitudinally, or 36mm nuts not tight - none of which require the stacks to be disassembled. However if you're planning on keeping the car many years sending the stacks out to a professional tranny rebuilder might be wise because he'll tear them down to replace any worn needle bearings, hubs/sliders, main bearings, syncros. Then you won't have to buy a press or bearing separator kit. You will still have to do the bearing preload/endplay thing.

You're going to need a torque wrench for the 109 ft-lbs 36mm nuts. I put the tranny in 2 gears at once to hold the shafts rock solid (don't use a penny or rag - see my tips in post 9). Here's some pics of what you're getting into although these are from my 1999 FWD turbo tranny:
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/inside-fwd-tranny4-jpg.151917/
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/inside-fwd-tranny2-jpg.132369/
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/p...go-into-5th-or-reverse.405484/#post-153772736
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/5th-gear-jpg.605451/
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/intermediate-shaft-input-shaft-both-in-neutral-jpg.99045/
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/5th-gear-shift-inside-tranny.480233/#post-153435439
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/2...d-second-gear-problems.406668/#post-152697045

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

luv2rallye said:
Popping out is usually shaved down forks (https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/popping-out-of-4th-gear.290238/#post-151566175) or bad bearing preloads/endplay or 36mm nuts not tight - none of which require the stacks to be disassembled. However if you're planning on keeping the car many years sending the stacks out to a professional tranny rebuilder might be wise because he'll tear them down to replace any worn needle bearings, hubs/sliders, main bearings, syncros. Then you won't have to buy a press or bearing separator kit. You will still have to do the bearing preload/endplay thing.

I did some research into this a few years ago and that's the consensus diagnosis absent actually taking it apart and seeing what's going on. A local well-regarded trans shop also told me the same thing, that it's probably this. I had them look at the car without taking it apart when the clutch failed, and they told me that if they do the clutch job and the popping out of 1st was due to the fork being bad, they could do that too for not much more since they have to remove the trans anyway for the clutch job.

Roughly, how much do send-out shops charge for overhauling stacks, for a trans with ~80k miles, including shipping back to me? I'm guessing that even the least expensive option, for a trans in relatively good condition that just needs a few new parts, will still be way more expensive than me doing it myself, since it's just parts and a couple of tools.

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

XC92 said:
I did some research into this a few years ago and that's the consensus diagnosis absent actually taking it apart and seeing what's going on. A local well-regarded trans shop also told me the same thing, that it's probably this. I had them look at the car without taking it apart when the clutch failed, and they told me that if they do the clutch job and the popping out of 1st was due to the fork being bad, they could do that too for not much more since they have to remove the trans anyway for the clutch job.

Roughly, how much do send-out shops charge for overhauling stacks, for a trans with ~80k miles, including shipping back to me?

Have no idea plus it depends on what all they replace. Ask them. Many suggest just always replacing the main bearings as a precaution, but they usually after receiving them and tearing down, will tell you what absolutely has to be done as well as what they recommend. They will do whatever you agree to. I tore them completely down myself, but if I had to do over, I'd send them to TMZ because of all the work involved and difficulty getting parts which he has.

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Meanwhile, are parts hard to get? I suppose it depends on which part, but are any especially hard, if not impossible, e.g. hubs, synchros, rings. What about forks, especially the 1st-2nd one, and where can I get a good one?

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

Well parts keep getting harder to find every year since no one makes them anymore and stock gets used up or places just drop them due to near zero sales of those items. Spacers are near impossible from anyone except TMZ (since he bought them all up) and he needs them for his own rebuilds. I get parts from places like https://www.discountmitsubishiparts.com/ and other real Mitsubishi places but they have fewer and fewer all the time. You won't find any internal tranny parts from local auto stores. Remember you're dealing with a 28 yr old tranny. I've heard some people get so desperate they buy a junk yard tranny just to get the part they need from inside it. Many people just put in a used tranny. While this is the easiest and cheapest, IMHO you're trading your problems for new unknown ones (at least with yours you know what the problems are). If you do that you should rebuild the used tranny before installing it.

Before starting you might want to test the syncros while the car is still together: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/2...d-second-gear-problems.406668/#post-152697045.

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

There are no decent aftermarket spacers and perhaps other hard to fine OEM parts?

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

I don't know, you'll have to look. If you find any let everyone on here know. Beck Arnley buys OEM factory overstock and sells them in their own box but I don't know if they have internal tranny parts. They more noted for obtaining OEM factory timing belt auto tensioners, tensioner pulleys, etc.

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

Are any of these parts generic, like spacers? I assume that the 2 36mm lock rings are, right?

Sorry about all the follow-up questions. I'm sure it's all been A&A'ed before.

luv2rallye · Sep 26, 2020

Don't know, maybe others will chime in on this. BTW they are 36mm nuts (not lock rings) with a special sleeve on the end (that's part of the nut) that you stake to the shaft's notch to keep them from loosening (https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/reverse-syncro-new-on-5th-gear-slider-jpg.226616/).

Here's more info on gear popout: http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/popout.html

XC92 · Sep 26, 2020

Yeah that's what I meant, lock nut. One of our other cars has staked axle nuts so I'm familiar. I prefer the castle nut style with cotter pin, but that wouldn't work in a trans, I assume.

pauleyman · Sep 26, 2020

The nuts are probably proprietary. Spacers could be made but it would be expensive. They are precision thickness to .001 inch and specific sizes.
There are aftermarket synchro and bearing kits available. Other internal parts are harder to find. Buy them while you can.

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