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2G Brand New Axle Seals Leaking

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jinscho

Proven Member
636
321
Jun 16, 2017
Bangor, Pennsylvania
As the title states, I just finished putting the rebuilt tranny in the car and no sooner than it was filled with Redline MT-90, the axle seals started leaking. I know with 100% certainty that the seals were installed properly, and they're OEM seals purchased from JNZ tuning. Before I go through the process of replacing the seals, yet again.. is it possible that the car just needs to be driven to warm the seals up? I only ask as I came across a mention of it in this thread over at DSM Talk (post #6): https://www.dsmtalk.com/threads/help-with-axle-seal-leak.236412/

Thoughts?
 
Can you take some pics of the seals? I don't think driving or warming them up is going to make it any better, but hey, it's worth a shot, no reason not to try it. (Unless you're losing tranny fluid at a dangerous rate)
 
Pictures as requested.
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Those dont look installed level or straight. So not properly by my eyes,

I insyalled some new ones over christmas and never leaked so they dont need warming up.

Also did you clean out the surface area and lube the outside of the seal before installing it so its not dry?
 
Those dont look installed level or straight. So not properly by my eyes,

I insyalled some new ones over christmas and never leaked so they dont need warming up.

Also did you clean out the surface area and lube the outside of the seal before installing it so its not dry?

They're definitely straight, it's tough to get a good angle from under the car while holding a flashlight. The trans was on my workbench when I installed them, unfortunately I don't have any photos from that point in the process. The entire trans case was cleaned, thoroughly, and the seal surface was free of any imperfections. I lubed them up with Redline assembly lube prior to install.
 
Sounds like the general consensus is that they're damaged and need to be replaced... Again :notgood:

Based on how easily the driver's side axle slid into the trans and clicked in place, I really don't understand how that seal could be damaged.. but, it is what it is :idontknow:

Thanks for the quick input everyone.
 
What does the axle seal surface look like? Did you put new bearings on the front diff?
The surface on the transmission itself was in excellent condition. No scoring, scrapes, etc. Axles were wiped down, and lubed up prior to install as well. In fact, I lubed up the passenger side pretty heavily in order to keep the c clip centered.

Internally, the bearings were in good condition, so no they were not replaced. The entire transmission was torn down, all seals were replaced, synchros were inspected, and a taller 5th gear set from a W5M33 trans was swapped in since I spend a lot of my time driving on the highway.

I took my good old time doing the rebuild, checked over everything, and followed the FSM throughout the whole process. That's why I'm mildly frustrated about the brand new seals leaking.. but there's not much I can do other than swapping them out yet again..
 
Two things come to mind:
1) Wondering if there is a way to verify the age of the seals. NOS for seals is not necessarily good.

2) You stated the case was in very good condition, and properly cleaned, but how many miles on the axles? Could be that they are the surface that’s not sealing.
 
They're definitely straight, it's tough to get a good angle from under the car while holding a flashlight. The trans was on my workbench when I installed them, unfortunately I don't have any photos from that point in the process. The entire trans case was cleaned, thoroughly, and the seal surface was free of any imperfections. I lubed them up with Redline assembly lube prior to install.
Your straight and my straight are two different meanings LOL

Look at this pic you posted up! Notice the left side is raised more then the right side!!! Well thats not strsight nor level so thats the first thing i noticed. So you saying its straight makes me think yoir install procedure is not as good as it can be if you dont see this being wonky.
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Your straight and my straight are two different meanings LOL

Look at this pic you posted up! Notice the left side is raised more then the right side!!! Well thats not strsight nor level so thats the first thing i noticed. So you saying its straight makes me think yoir install procedure is not as good as it can be if you dont see this being wonky.
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I see what you're referencing.. like I said, difficult to get clean, straight on photos.. the angle of that photo makes the seal look all sorts of wrong. But, the seals were installed with a seal driver and were definitely straight. Either way, doesn't matter much as the leaky seals need to come out and get replaced..

@DogWhistle the passenger side axle is only about a year old, driver's side.. who knows.. but neither of them leaked on the old F5M31/4G64 setup. In fact, that trans is still in great shape, only reason I rebuilt the F5M33 that's now in the car is to install better gear ratios to suit my particular driving. I highly doubt the seals were NOS, especially coming from JNZ. Every other part/seal/bolt I've gotten from him during the rebuild process has been in excellent condition and the only leaky seals between the engine and trans are the axles.. everything else is bone dry (which was my ultimate goal since the 4G64 leaked from every seal but the rear main)
 
I see what you're referencing.. like I said, difficult to get clean, straight on photos.. the angle of that photo makes the seal look all sorts of wrong. But, the seals were installed with a seal driver and were definitely straight. Either way, doesn't matter much as the leaky seals need to come out and get replaced..

@DogWhistle the passenger side axle is only about a year old, driver's side.. who knows.. but neither of them leaked on the old F5M31/4G64 setup. In fact, that trans is still in great shape, only reason I rebuilt the F5M33 that's now in the car is to install better gear ratios to suit my particular driving. I highly doubt the seals were NOS, especially coming from JNZ. Every other part/seal/bolt I've gotten from him during the rebuild process has been in excellent condition and the only leaky seals between the engine and trans are the axles.. everything else is bone dry (which was my ultimate goal since the 4G64 leaked from every seal but the rear main)
I want to believe it but i cant becahse my eyes are seeing the raised side on the right.

Fyi i installed my axle seals with a normal socket and i got that lip perfect all the way around even looking at it its perfect. But the smallest bit of grit in the casing can cause gaps and leaks. So it has to be perfectly clean on both parts before install.

I dont know your skills and ability or how perticular you are but i see many people fail at basic things and wonder how it happens when its super easy. So im not going at you specifically but on this i do feel as if its user install error.
To prove me and all wrong the axles need to come out and you check them before removing the seal, then remove the seal for a new one and any scratch in the casing needs to be addressed.

Did you see how far down the old ones went before you took them out?
 
I want to believe it but i cant becahse my eyes are seeing the raised side on the right.

Fyi i installed my axle seals with a normal socket and i got that lip perfect all the way around even looking at it its perfect. But the smallest bit of grit in the casing can cause gaps and leaks. So it has to be perfectly clean on both parts before install.

I dont know your skills and ability or how perticular you are but i see many people fail at basic things and wonder how it happens when its super easy. So im not going at you specifically but on this i do feel as if its user install error.
To prove me and all wrong the axles need to come out and you check them before removing the seal, then remove the seal for a new one and any scratch in the casing needs to be addressed.

Did you see how far down the old ones went before you took them out?
No worries, unlike most I know that any criticism given on this site is usually earned by the person receiving it (in this case, me). I've been turning wrenches in either a professional or diy form for about 13 years at this point. I still have a lot to learn, and in no way do I consider myself an expert, in fact this was my first trans teardown (hence the FSM being in play and followed to a T). With that being said, the seal driver (when used properly) will only allow you to install the seal to a specific depth. In this case, flush with the outter lip of the case. Comparing that with the install depth of the seals from the F5M31 transmission, they look to be at the proper depth.

Could I have missed something along the way? Sure.. I'm 99.9% positive I didn't miss anything though.. new seals are on order, I'm just happy I don't have to pull the trans in order to replace these seals..
 
No worries, unlike most I know that any criticism given on this site is usually earned by the person receiving it (in this case, me). I've been turning wrenches in either a professional or diy form for about 13 years at this point. I still have a lot to learn, and in no way do I consider myself an expert, in fact this was my first trans teardown (hence the FSM being in play and followed to a T). With that being said, the seal driver (when used properly) will only allow you to install the seal to a specific depth. In this case, flush with the outter lip of the case. Comparing that with the install depth of the seals from the F5M31 transmission, they look to be at the proper depth.

Could I have missed something along the way? Sure.. I'm 99.9% positive I didn't miss anything though.. new seals are on order, I'm just happy I don't have to pull the trans in order to replace these seals..
drivers dont always work well. I tend to not really use them unless its a freeze plug or a bearing.

When you take them out check all the surfaces and if they smooth thats ok and clean it all out with panel wipe. Clean the seal with a dry cloth before and then put a small but of trans fluid on the outside to help it slide in ok. I never install these dry on any seal i install.
 
what i would do is when you get the new seals try slipping them on the axle to see if they fit snug . make sure there are no burs on the axle . if the seal fits properly then next step is to look at where the seal goes on the trans . inspect for any groves where the seal seals on the outer surface cause sometimes when you try to pull the old seal out you can put a grove on the trans housing . if there is a grove you can put a little silicone on the outer surface of the seal before you install it . one more thing i like to mention is that when you have the axle in the trans is to check to see how much play you have in the axle .
 
New OEM seals are on order. I'll report back once I have it apart again. I honestly hope that it's something stupid that I just overlooked. Either way, it's all documented here so that someone in the future can learn from my mistakes.
 
Well, it's install error. Now that I have the new seals in hand I can see with 100% certainty that the driver's side is in too deep. The new seals will be installed with a socket instead of the seal driver, I feel like the seal driver gave me a false sense of confidence in install depth to the point where I didn't even pay attention to it. Using a socket will force me to check that it's going in perfectly straight AND that I don't drive it in deeper than necessary.

Live and learn I guess :idontknow:
 
I usually always put a thin layer of RTV on the outside of the seal case before installing, but they should seal on their own if you already have them in.
 
I know you said you already placed your order for new seals, but I would maybe try ordering the seals from Extreme. I used to know several of the guys from JNZ, as a matter of fact one of best friends is a former employee, but things have changed there a lot and I'll just leave it at that. Extreme's stuff always come quick and in OEM bags with the part # stickers on the bag.

I'm surprised to hear you say you think they are too deep. In the picture, it almost looks like they are not in all the way to me. Usually the seal is flush with the surface. Definitely make sure the axles are in all the way too. They can be a bit tricky sometimes. Give them a good whack with a soft mallet.

You'll figure it out. At least you caught it.
 
I know you said you already placed your order for new seals, but I would maybe try ordering the seals from Extreme. I used to know several of the guys from JNZ, as a matter of fact one of best friends is a former employee, but things have changed there a lot and I'll just leave it at that. Extreme's stuff always come quick and in OEM bags with the part # stickers on the bag.

I'm surprised to hear you say you think they are too deep. In the picture, it almost looks like they are not in all the way to me. Usually the seal is flush with the surface. Definitely make sure the axles are in all the way too. They can be a bit tricky sometimes. Give them a good whack with a soft mallet.

You'll figure it out. At least you caught it.

I'm rather surprised to hear that. I've ordered from both quite a few times over the past few years, and Josh has been great helping me find oddball parts for my Spyder, so I haven't seen a need to pick one over the other (unless prices are drastically different).

This particular order shipped the next day and I had the new seals in hand a day later (perks of living an hour and 15 min away from them I guess?). Seals arrived in OEM packaging as well.

As for the install error, once I had the axles out and was able to compare the new seals to the installed ones, it was very clear they were too deep. There's a small lip on the edge of the seal that is pretty obvious THAT is the proper install height.. I had those about 2mm below the edge of the case. The leaks weren't horrible, but that slight depth error made a huge difference. I'm happy to say, they were in there evenly.. just too deep..

On a side note, since I had the old axles back out, and the boots in the driver's side axles were starting to dry rot.. I went ahead and ordered new axles from Rock Auto for $90 since they just posted a new discount code for us to use. :thumb: (really hoping I get the DSM magnet...)
 
Well... now I feel like a complete jackass..

New axles from rock auto were delivered yesterday, I excitedly rushed out to the car today to install them and IMMEDIATELY found my issue with this entire leak.. turns out, had absolutely nothing to do with the seals..

the transmission I picked up dirt cheap from Performance Partout because it had been sitting on a shelf for years..... it’s an 89-91 trans with the smaller 25 spline axles. It never even crossed my mind to research the difference between the axles for an N/T Spyder and a 2G GS-T.. I knew people have ran F5M31 transmissions before and had never seen anything stating that the spline counts for the axles were different.. I just thought I had gotten lucky and had some parts that were swappable between the two platforms.. Nope.

so... I now have the PROPER seals on order... again through rock auto as the OEM seals appear to be on back order.. and I have a brand new set of 27 spline FWD axles... that I can’t use :ohdamn:
 
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