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2G No start up after crank... sorta?

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MissSpyderGST

10+ Year Contributor
82
12
Mar 12, 2010
Luthersville, Georgia
So my Spyder (view "MissSpyderGST's" vehicle profile for her mods) is having a strange no crank issue. The "sorta" part of it is because when we replaced certain parts, she would start up just fine and run fine, like nothing was wrong and it was fixed, until she sat over night and then, no start up from attempting to crank. If the following part allowed her to start, I'll put an asterisk following that part. We have replaced: fuel pump, MPI relay, ECU, fuel filter*, fuel rail with injectors and FPR*, fuel injector resistor pack, spark plugs*, coolant temp sensor, [idle air control valve], checked all coils on the COP, made double sure the plugs were gapped properly, took TB off to clean (needed it really bad) and [bypassed the FIAC], did a boost leak test which was sealed extremely well, as the BISS screw flew out, replaced the BISS Screw and o ring and I'm sure I may be forgetting something/s. The reason for the brackets around the FIAC and IAC is because when she was running great after the fuel filter, she had idle surge, so we thought the car was fixed after that, as she cranked up and started just fine after several attempts, and even after sitting for a couple of days. Now we are back at square one and have no idea what else to check for. The fuel filter seemed very promising! The fact she sat overnight several days and cranked right up left me with a lot of hope. Now, she's back to that slow and agonizing crank up, and doesn't start again. We also drained the fuel and replaced it with clean, new, premium. Still nothing. The only other thing I can really think of that we haven't full on replaced would be the TB, but idk if that would even fix the issue. I tested a part of the O2 sensor (ohms between two of the pins) and it seems to be within spec and fine. I haven't really found another thread that seemed to be like this issue, so I was hoping if anyone had a good idea as to what's going on.
The partial rebuild of the cylinder head I did earlier this year (mods on profile) and followed all instructions to a T. She had a few problems after that "rebuild" and those have been fixed, so I'm not sure if these new problems are a result of what I've done or because she's just being stubborn and doesn't wanna run for me (being the typical DSM she is and decided to come up with a new issue for me). Help, please! Hubby and I are OUT of ideas. :banghead:
 
When you check connections, don’t just make sure they are plugged in correctly, but inspect every single pin to make sure it didn’t back out.
Will do! Thanks for the reminder.

Ok, well when it was running and if you had the injector deadtime like you had it it would have run a little rich. But onto the no running then we can come back to that.
https://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/swapplugwires
Just to verify if you used this page, which way do you have the plugs wired and do you have the checkmark still checked on the cam sensor under misc.
Definitely the same page it took me to. And yes, after I read that I knew I had to keep that box checked for sure. I'll post pics of anything strange (if found) and the plugs tomorrow! I'm so determined to get this car going, y'all!
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong for the 2g the coil going to the front of the car is for 1&4 and the one in the rear towards the firewall is 2&3. This is with the coil in the bracket installed on the car.
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong for the 2g the coil going to the front of the car is for 1&4 and the one in the rear towards the firewall is 2&3. This is with the coil in the bracket installed on the car.
The coils are located on the intake manifold, beside the transistor and are mounted to a bracket. It's the same on all 2Gs. Our 95, 96 and both 97s are the same way. I'll be checking these things in a few hours, once I'm done taking care of my grandmother. :D
 
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Pulled the plugs and not surprisingly, fouled. I did clean them up to get most of it off by using carb cleaner and a soft wire brush and wiping them down with a towel... Just good enough to where they can function better. One was off on the gaping. I must have checked another plug twice by accident, so I gapped it to match the others at .030. They were all wet with fuel, cylinder 4 didn't have as much fuel as the others, but still had some on the tip. I checked the fuel injector connectors, ignition coil connector and transistor connectors so far so see if there are any wires that may have popped loose, but those checked out fine. I'll check the others once I get back home, along with pulling the fuel return line to check for fuel flow.
 

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IDK if this will work but try this.

Adjust your tps so it's at .63
Start a stream, engine doesn't have to be on, push the gas pedal to the floor all the way and let go. Then right click on the log and select tps adjust. This will get you throttle position to 0% off throttle and 100% when it's floored.
Under MAF Comp, select simulate idle switch from tps. Also bring the 50hz slider down about -10%.
Under MAF Clamp, select stock IM under display template tab
Then hit copy all to ecu at the bottom.

Try starting the car. If it still doesn't work, bring the 50hz slider under MAF Comp to -20% and try again.

Which cam angle sensor are you using?
 
Lol y'all.... I found my vacuum leak. The big line that goes to my intake was unhooked... I'm sure this is a big cause of issues.
 

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Get a can of some sort. Take off the return line after the regulator and put the hose in the can. Fire the fuel pump manually in ecmlink. You'll know for sure if you're getting flow through the rail or not. This is also a decent way to drain a tank. Please dont do this on a hot car

I just got through doing this, and I am definitely getting fuel to the rail.
 
IDK if this will work but try this.

Adjust your tps so it's at .63
Start a stream, engine doesn't have to be on, push the gas pedal to the floor all the way and let go. Then right click on the log and select tps adjust. This will get you throttle position to 0% off throttle and 100% when it's floored.
Under MAF Comp, select simulate idle switch from tps. Also bring the 50hz slider down about -10%.
Under MAF Clamp, select stock IM under display template tab
Then hit copy all to ecu at the bottom.

Try starting the car. If it still doesn't work, bring the 50hz slider under MAF Comp to -20% and try again.

Which cam angle sensor are you using?

I am using a 97 CAS. I did correct the TPS, too. Still no start up. :banghead:
 
It's not a yes or no, right or wrong answer. From the passenger side to the driver side where do the plug wires go. If anything take a picture and post it.
i agree here. This is not a yes or no question. Show us. And those plugs look terrible? Are you sure those are 450 injectors?
If those plugs smell of gas heavy you're getting too much fuel or you have very little spark and/or bad firing order.
 
I promise that the plugs are in order and the coils are on correctly and the firing order is correct. I did replace the transistor and it's possible I did put a bad one on. The injectors are definitely stock, we don't have any extra upgraded injectors.
 
Wondering if you have a good working temperature sensor.

On a 2g, most of the time a bad coolant temperature sensor will hold the engine to start, it will flood the spark plugs at first crank and will not start at all.

Every car is different, but 80% of the time they will not start.

I have had 7 Dsms and only one (100% stock) is the one was able to run with a bad tcs.

Post a pic of the firing order, we have catch problems by the picture on a different area then the pic was put on originally.
 
Wondering if you have a good working temperature sensor.

On a 2g, most of the time a bad coolant temperature sensor will hold the engine to start, it will flood the spark plugs at first crank and will not start at all.

Every car is different, but 80% of the time they will not start.

I have had 7 Dsms and only one (100% stock) is the one was able to run with a bad tcs.

Post a pic of the firing order, we have catch problems by the picture on a different area then the pic was put on originally.

That's exactly what my husband initially thought, after I replaced the CPS. So he removed mine, broke it then bought a new one to replace it with LOL. Like I said, I've replaced what seems like half the car, but nothing seems to be the real problem. It's about to rain here for 2 weeks straight (so says the weather channel, anyway), so working on it will be hard coming up since it's no longer under the carport... The rail buggy took its place. Whenever there's a break in the rain, I'll just keep messing with it until I find the issue.
 
I hate to say this but since your not telling us about the firing order which may or may not be right, replacing parts probably won't fix the no start. At best you have the wrong firing order. It ran and had idling issues, whatever you installed after that is the issue. The low compression the motor has doesn't help either. So to break it down for anyone that can help.

Mechanical timing - said to be verified.
Ignition timing - not verified.
Spark - verified
Boost leaks - not verified.
Compression - around 120 psi with 2&3 being lower if I remember.
Fuel pressure - have flow, no exact reading.
The ECU is possibly a 95 eprom with dsmlink.
Injectors - stock.

From what I can see in the logs presented coolant temp read fine as it was withing 5 degrees of the iat.
The car has a cam and crank signal as you are getting an rpm signal and you are injecting some type of fuel.

If you are running the cop or stock coil you need to try to swap the firing order possibly or chase down a chewed wire in the harness. The last idea have if you do have all the parts right is you need to check your grounds. Take a multimeter and go from the negative to the engine and check the resistance. It should be as close to zero as possible and should have continuity.
 
Well, just to clarify some of the questions that you guys may have (I know the thread has gotten large and some info has been lossed/overlooked):
->Mechanical timing has been verified 100% by my husband and I both, 3 times.
->Ignition timing has NOT been verified (I need to look into it for sure, and I do plan on it, weather pending).
->Spark has been verified. Cylinders 1 and 4 show a strong blue spark, while cylinders 2 and 3 show a weaker, orange spark.
->Boost leaks, if there are any, they would be extremely minor, as I have popped the FPR vac line and BISS screw completely out while testing with my husband... This means of course I connected the boost leak tester to the turbo itself.
->Compression numbers, from the last time I did it they were as follows (dry, cold test): cylinder 1, 120 psi. Cylinder 2, 100 psi. Cylinder 3, 100 psi. Cylinder 4, 130 psi. I know the weak engine needs a rebuild, but I can't actually rebuild it until I have more time... Waiting on my daughter to start school so I have no interruptions.
->Fuel, no exact reading, but definitely reaching rail, and plugs were wet with fuel.
->ECU is in fact a 95 EPROM.
->Injectors are most definitely stock.

I had to switch back to my COP setup temporarily, as the plug wires I were using went to one of the daily drivers my husband likes to drive back and forth to work in. I wouldn't mind getting back to the coil packs and wires, at least until a rebuild of the lower end has been completed. To verify the firing order of the COP, we swapped my COP with his Talon's COP, and the Talon ran smoothly... It's also a 97 with a 95 EPROM.
And any parts that may not be listed on the vehicle profile, assume they are OEM to the exact year of my car (1997).
As far as Link goes, I have not removed that check mark from the "use non 95/96 cam angle sensor".
 
Well, just to clarify some of the questions that you guys may have (I know the thread has gotten large and some info has been lossed/overlooked):
->Mechanical timing has been verified 100% by my husband and I both, 3 times.
->Ignition timing has NOT been verified (I need to look into it for sure, and I do plan on it, weather pending).
->Spark has been verified. Cylinders 1 and 4 show a strong blue spark, while cylinders 2 and 3 show a weaker, orange spark.
->Boost leaks, if there are any, they would be extremely minor, as I have popped the FPR vac line and BISS screw completely out while testing with my husband... This means of course I connected the boost leak tester to the turbo itself.
->Compression numbers, from the last time I did it they were as follows (dry, cold test): cylinder 1, 120 psi. Cylinder 2, 100 psi. Cylinder 3, 100 psi. Cylinder 4, 130 psi. I know the weak engine needs a rebuild, but I can't actually rebuild it until I have more time... Waiting on my daughter to start school so I have no interruptions.
->Fuel, no exact reading, but definitely reaching rail, and plugs were wet with fuel.
->ECU is in fact a 95 EPROM.
->Injectors are most definitely stock.

I had to switch back to my COP setup temporarily, as the plug wires I were using went to one of the daily drivers my husband likes to drive back and forth to work in. I wouldn't mind getting back to the coil packs and wires, at least until a rebuild of the lower end has been completed. To verify the firing order of the COP, we swapped my COP with his Talon's COP, and the Talon ran smoothly... It's also a 97 with a 95 EPROM.
And any parts that may not be listed on the vehicle profile, assume they are OEM to the exact year of my car (1997).
As far as Link goes, I have not removed that check mark from the "use non 95/96 cam angle sensor".

So unless you can swap the firing order on the cop or reverse it in ecm link. The car will have the wrong firing order with the cop with the 95 ECU. I'm not familiar with the 2g and the ecm link features for that model. And the second I have ran into issues as have many others running just a cop setup on the stock ecu. The reason you have weaker spark on 2&3 is because our cars are not meant to fire individual coils. Also if you do want to run the setup look into getting a ignition box of some sort and for know gap the plugs all the way down to 20-25 thousandths. That being said start with gapping the spark plugs as small as you can until it runs if the car ran with a normal firing order when you had the spark plug wires and oem coil.
 
Also if you do get it to run, capture some data and post it. Get the car warm. With the size cam you have you may not get it to idle under 1000 rpms, I am not sure on the specs for those crowers but I know hks and kelfords I used were tough to get a good idle under 1000 with alot of timing and fuel tuning.
 
Also if you do get it to run, capture some data and post it. Get the car warm. With the size cam you have you may not get it to idle under 1000 rpms, I am not sure on the specs for those crowers but I know hks and kelfords I used were tough to get a good idle under 1000 with alot of timing and fuel tuning.
Yes! This I have noticed. When she was running decently before this new issue, idle was kinda rough with those Crowers. So I had him take it to 1,000 RPMs for idle, and it was smoother. His Talon has the HKS 272s, and his idles roughly, sitting at 800/850 RPMs.

I also meant to get back with you on something specifically. The last time you asked me to take the COP off (again) and put the plug wires and coil packs on, she did not start, which came as a HUGE shock to both Brandon and I. Because it did start with it before, we expected it to. I did follow the wiring via the ECMLink page plug wiring, as I did before... Double and triple checked to make sure it was correct, and still no start. His Talon COP allowed my car to start, too. So we thought maybe I had a bad coil. So that is when I put mine on his Talon and it started up just fine and we noted and checked the wiring to make sure it was correct to the vehicle, and everything checked out.

I'm really starting to think either a ground isn't fully secured/loose (which I would think could cause an intermittent start/no start problem) or something more severe. I don't think it would hurt anything if I made sure those head studs/nuts were securely fastened at 90 ft lbs of torque and running another compression test.

I can try the .025 gap of the plugs, too. And see what happens with that.
 
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