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2G No start up after crank... sorta?

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MissSpyderGST

10+ Year Contributor
82
12
Mar 12, 2010
Luthersville, Georgia
So my Spyder (view "MissSpyderGST's" vehicle profile for her mods) is having a strange no crank issue. The "sorta" part of it is because when we replaced certain parts, she would start up just fine and run fine, like nothing was wrong and it was fixed, until she sat over night and then, no start up from attempting to crank. If the following part allowed her to start, I'll put an asterisk following that part. We have replaced: fuel pump, MPI relay, ECU, fuel filter*, fuel rail with injectors and FPR*, fuel injector resistor pack, spark plugs*, coolant temp sensor, [idle air control valve], checked all coils on the COP, made double sure the plugs were gapped properly, took TB off to clean (needed it really bad) and [bypassed the FIAC], did a boost leak test which was sealed extremely well, as the BISS screw flew out, replaced the BISS Screw and o ring and I'm sure I may be forgetting something/s. The reason for the brackets around the FIAC and IAC is because when she was running great after the fuel filter, she had idle surge, so we thought the car was fixed after that, as she cranked up and started just fine after several attempts, and even after sitting for a couple of days. Now we are back at square one and have no idea what else to check for. The fuel filter seemed very promising! The fact she sat overnight several days and cranked right up left me with a lot of hope. Now, she's back to that slow and agonizing crank up, and doesn't start again. We also drained the fuel and replaced it with clean, new, premium. Still nothing. The only other thing I can really think of that we haven't full on replaced would be the TB, but idk if that would even fix the issue. I tested a part of the O2 sensor (ohms between two of the pins) and it seems to be within spec and fine. I haven't really found another thread that seemed to be like this issue, so I was hoping if anyone had a good idea as to what's going on.
The partial rebuild of the cylinder head I did earlier this year (mods on profile) and followed all instructions to a T. She had a few problems after that "rebuild" and those have been fixed, so I'm not sure if these new problems are a result of what I've done or because she's just being stubborn and doesn't wanna run for me (being the typical DSM she is and decided to come up with a new issue for me). Help, please! Hubby and I are OUT of ideas. :banghead:
 
It is running poorly currently. I'm not sure how to check if they are squirting fuel. How can I do that? As stated above, I'm willing to learn anything and everything. I don't mind asking my husband for advice, but I'd like to do it myself for once instead of relying on him.
For now if ecmlink is telling you they are firing just listen to them with a stethoscope or screwdriver to the ear trick. Wont tell you definitively how much fuel but typically for this type of diagnostic we're just looking to see I'd they are working at all.
 
So my Spyder (view "MissSpyderGST's" vehicle profile for her mods) is having a strange no crank issue. The "sorta" part of it is because when we replaced certain parts, she would start up just fine and run fine, like nothing was wrong and it was fixed, until she sat over night and then, no start up from attempting to crank. If the following part allowed her to start, I'll put an asterisk following that part. We have replaced: fuel pump, MPI relay, ECU, fuel filter*, fuel rail with injectors and FPR*, fuel injector resistor pack, spark plugs*, coolant temp sensor, [idle air control valve], checked all coils on the COP, made double sure the plugs were gapped properly, took TB off to clean (needed it really bad) and [bypassed the FIAC], did a boost leak test which was sealed extremely well, as the BISS screw flew out, replaced the BISS Screw and o ring and I'm sure I may be forgetting something/s. The reason for the brackets around the FIAC and IAC is because when she was running great after the fuel filter, she had idle surge, so we thought the car was fixed after that, as she cranked up and started just fine after several attempts, and even after sitting for a couple of days. Now we are back at square one and have no idea what else to check for. The fuel filter seemed very promising! The fact she sat overnight several days and cranked right up left me with a lot of hope. Now, she's back to that slow and agonizing crank up, and doesn't start again. We also drained the fuel and replaced it with clean, new, premium. Still nothing. The only other thing I can really think of that we haven't full on replaced would be the TB, but idk if that would even fix the issue. I tested a part of the O2 sensor (ohms between two of the pins) and it seems to be within spec and fine. I haven't really found another thread that seemed to be like this issue, so I was hoping if anyone had a good idea as to what's going on.
The partial rebuild of the cylinder head I did earlier this year (mods on profile) and followed all instructions to a T. She had a few problems after that "rebuild" and those have been fixed, so I'm not sure if these new problems are a result of what I've done or because she's just being stubborn and doesn't wanna run for me (being the typical DSM she is and decided to come up with a new issue for me). Help, please! Hubby and I are OUT of ideas. :banghead:
Hey there, I just had the same problem with my 1999 Spyder, Does it start up and run fine until it makes a complete loop? There is a secondary Fuel Relay located on the driver side underneath the console. I replaced that and now the car runs great. It is held on by one bolt and is incased in metal. The part number that is on it is MR239764. There was another thread that one of the members sent to me that shows you how to bypass this part. It controls the voltage going to the fuel pump. I hope this helps you out.
 
For now if ecmlink is telling you they are firing just listen to them with a stethoscope or screwdriver to the ear trick. Wont tell you definitively how much fuel but typically for this type of diagnostic we're just looking to see I'd they are working at all.

Okay. I will test that out tmrw! I was getting started earlier, and my daughter (3 years old) was tapping hard on the bedroom window to get my attention for popcorn. Which apparently she needed right at that moment.... I was only out there for like 5-8 minutes. :ohdamn: I have two kids, and it's hard to break away long enough to do anything.

Hey there, I just had the same problem with my 1999 Spyder, Does it start up and run fine until it makes a complete loop? There is a secondary Fuel Relay located on the driver side underneath the console. I replaced that and now the car runs great. It is held on by one bolt and is incased in metal. The part number that is on it is MR239764. There was another thread that one of the members sent to me that shows you how to bypass this part. It controls the voltage going to the fuel pump. I hope this helps you out.

I'll take a look at that as well, though it may be a part my husband had replaced for me while I was inside with the kiddos. I'll ask him before he gets ready for bed. Thanks for your input! :thumb:
 
So it runs, congrats, your almost there now. When swapping out the injectors make sure none of the seals are cracked or broken as that will cause vacuum leak and affect the idle. Keep us posted on the progress. Also to capture more data for you logs follow the link below. The more info you can provide us, the more we can help. http://dsmlink.com/wiki/ecmlink101datalogging
 
So, she went back to not starting again. I redid the log to add quite a few more things to it. Tell me what you guys think, and if someone could explain what exactly I'm looking at, that would be very much appreciated!
 

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So, she went back to not starting again. I redid the log to add quite a few more things to it. Tell me what you guys think, and if someone could explain what exactly I'm looking at, that would be very much appreciated!
I looked at the log and its been a while but it does look like the ariflow per rev is high, maybe someone else can chime in on that. Do you have access to another maf sensor you can swap in and see if it changes. Also try to set your tps to read 0% when closed.

Also what did you change from when it was starting and running rough to now?
 
The only thing that was changed was when I put the Talon's COP setup on and it cranked. I haven't touched it since. This is what has been happening the whole time. I'll change something, it'll start up fine... Have idle surge, and then it'll go back to doing this again. TPS has never been touched since I've had the car for 10 years. Brandon wants me to switch out the throttle body with the Talon's, because we know it's good. All parts that I have swapped with has been off that car, and it runs perfectly. This log right here I did without cranking up the car and it appears that the TPS is back to 0 when the pedal is left alone and 100 when its pressed to the floor.
 

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So you didn't change the injector? Take the injectors from the other car and scale them into yours as you know they work. You also have a vacuum leak as you are running lean and that's causing the idle issue as well.
 
How can you tell I'm running lean? It's possible I may have overlooked a vac line. These cars are covered with them. And I cleared the CEL from that injector, and it hasn't came on again, but then again too, it hasn't started since then.
 
You need to address the injector issue, clearing the code doesn't fix the issue. Since you have another running car with thats accessable I would swap those injectors in. From the running log I could see the est a/f staying lean and you saying you no idle control to me says you have a vaccuum leak. I would leave that cop setup off the car for now and use the stock coil as they preform the best without a cdi box or standalone.

Also adjust the tps accordingly it won't stop the car from running but it will help when you sort the rest out.
 

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And I wouldn't swap out anymore parts except those injectors and coil pack back to the oem style. After you swap those injectors and coil pack, if you can boost leak test the intake then you will now if you will have a vaccuum leak. A throttle body is not the issue of not starting at this moment. The car isn't meant to run 4 individual coils, will it work yes kind of, on a weak motor it maybe the issue you are having as well. Take the injectors from the other car and put them in, if they are a different size and don't know how to scale them post what they are and I can try to help with that. Also if you can replace the injector rings I would.
 
Okay, so I went ahead and put the stock coils and plug wires on, and then I swapped the whole fuel rail from our GSX (which runs at 100%, and is fully stock minus a couple of bolt on parts). She started but died immediately and wouldn't start again... Now... I observed something and it took me back to my automotive engine repair days which was over 10 years ago. The fuel feed line on the GSX, despite the fact that it was standing straight up, fuel still dribbled out of the line, which makes perfect sense because I got yelled at back in the day in auto class with my Mercedes doing the same thing over night, because the fuel system is pressurized. The feed line on my car, doesn't have any fuel that dribbles out, no matter how long I leave it off the rail and if it's pointed down to the ground or not. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, so I can't test the fuel pressure. This is just a hypothesis, so to speak.
 
And let me just add, I am in no way saying that I don't have ANY fuel pressure. Obviously, I have some because fuel does get to the rails.
 
Ok, we are getting somewhere. So you have no fuel pressure. Dumb question, does the car have gas in the tank, the gauge could be off. From there diagnose if the pump has power and ground and is turning on.
I definitely do have SOME fuel. Not much. Definitely enough for me to get to the next city where I live. I did activate the pump via link and it did turn on (it's a stock pump, but still has a very fine whine to it). Goodness, I really want to say thank you for sticking with me through this adventure. I just wish I would've noticed sooner. Sorry about that!
 
I can definitely do that when I go back out to the city (I live in the country and gas is expensive af here) on Tuesday. My fuel gauge before the head rebuild, would act kinda strange. I didn't think much of it though. When I KNEW I was at a little less than half a tank, and let it sit overnight, I'd wake up and go out to the car and it would show empty, until I cranked it up and left it cranked up for a couple of minutes, then the level would go back up.
 
Okay, so I have gas in the car and I also changed out the fuel pump, with no success. I did buy a fuel pressure gauge to test the fuel pressure and fuel pump (though I know this pump is good). I also bought a stethoscope so I can listen to the fuel injectors, even though all those have been replaced with good ones (and apparently, the ones that were on my car are perfectly fine... Brandon drove the GSX that had my fuel rail, injectors and FPR on). I didn't replace the sending unit for the pump. How often do those go out? Everything in the fuel system has been replaced except for that sending unit. I'll look up how to test fuel pressure so I know where I'm at on that here in a bit.
 
When you have asses to another cars part, it’s way easier to find the problem.

You can have fuel but not having enough pressure to make it run.

If you have a can of carburetor cleaner, you can spray some in the intake filter housing and crank it, it will start right up and die, if it does that then, YOU KNOW IS FUEL RELATED,

When knowing if its fuel, electrical or mechanical related makes the job way easier and faster to get to it.

Just to point out the injectors are fed by the resister, the resistor gets bad sometimes (rarely) and cuts off the power to the injectors.
 
Well I did spray quite a bit of carb cleaner in there and she refused to start up. That brings me to the question of what else could it be? She's in time, has spark, gets fuel to the rail, ECU is good and she has compression. Also, the fact that the fuel doesn't come out of the feed line isn't something I can't just ignore. Hell, at this point I feel like I've replaced half the car haha.
 
Get a can of some sort. Take off the return line after the regulator and put the hose in the can. Fire the fuel pump manually in ecmlink. You'll know for sure if you're getting flow through the rail or not. This is also a decent way to drain a tank. Please dont do this on a hot car
 
Do as Pauleyman says, You will see how much pressure it comes out of the return line and will know if there is pressure.

If you aren’t sure about it, you can even do the same thing on your other car and compare the pressure one to another, they should have idéntica pressure coming out of the line.
 
Intriguing, so we know the parts you swapped are good and should work. We know you have spark and some type of fuel. Pressure would be next, if you can see if any of the lines are damaged or squished that could be it but you did say it did run a few posts ago then it had a injector code and then nothing the next morning. Do you have the firing order right on the spark plugs and try and swap them if they were right/wrong. Also what do you have your plugs gapped to at the moment? I would pull them out and see if they are wet with fuel, oil or somehow damaged.

If you find you have fuel pressure, verified spark again and checked the plugs and are good. Swapped firing orders and both don't start but listen to each one ( the wrong way will backfire badly if there is fuel and spark). I am curious to know what the plugs look like after trying to start tho. Also just double check that you have everything plugged in from all the testing and swapping of parts.
 
Get a can of some sort. Take off the return line after the regulator and put the hose in the can. Fire the fuel pump manually in ecmlink. You'll know for sure if you're getting flow through the rail or not. This is also a decent way to drain a tank. Please dont do this on a hot car

Do as Pauleyman says, You will see how much pressure it comes out of the return line and will know if there is pressure.

If you aren’t sure about it, you can even do the same thing on your other car and compare the pressure one to another, they should have idéntica pressure coming out of the line.
I can definitely do this tomorrow once I get back from helping my grandmother in the morning, and once I get my daughter situated inside.
Intriguing, so we know the parts you swapped are good and should work. We know you have spark and some type of fuel. Pressure would be next, if you can see if any of the lines are damaged or squished that could be it but you did say it did run a few posts ago then it had a injector code and then nothing the next morning. Do you have the firing order right on the spark plugs and try and swap them if they were right/wrong. Also what do you have your plugs gapped to at the moment? I would pull them out and see if they are wet with fuel, oil or somehow damaged.

If you find you have fuel pressure, verified spark again and checked the plugs and are good. Swapped firing orders and both don't start but listen to each one ( the wrong way will backfire badly if there is fuel and spark). I am curious to know what the plugs look like after trying to start tho. Also just double check that you have everything plugged in from all the testing and swapping of parts.
I definitely have the plus wires correct. I searched on ECM Tuning for the wiring diagram that I needed, just to be sure. And double checked because I am forgetful and a bit paranoid haha. The plugs are gapped at a .030 I do believe. I can pull them again and double check. Also, they might be black as soot. I'll post pictures of my findings, just to clarify what i see. I've replaced the plugs on this car about 3 times in the past year due to issues of not running right. And Brandon won't replace them again because I just keep going through them... which is frustrating in both aspects, because I don't want to keep replacing them (just want the car fixed) and because I need to because they become carbon fouled (and he hates my car ha). I'll double check every connection while I am out there.
 
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