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ECMlink Few things + VE above 100%

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miliman13

10+ Year Contributor
1,957
276
Jan 1, 2011
tampa, Florida
1). No boost, vac, or exhaust leaks. Non
2). Verify mechanical timing check TRUE SELF geometry
3). Verify base timing check
4). Ignition system check 5BTDC
5). Motor health check
6). Basic throttle body adjustments.check
7). Compression ratio 9:1
8). Wiring and sensors check
9). No DTC/CEL codes check
10). Electrical system check
11). Base fuel pressure and injector values 50psi
12). Properly calibrated and configured wideband sensor check
13). Type of fuel 93pump
14). ECMlink how-to videos check




So i only spent 3 hrs on the dyno did not finish things happen ect..
I know theirs alot that may need fixing. But i'm curious to why i'm as high as 116% Ve
I had my base settings pretty close to whats recommend and at idle and cruise i see the values one expects from the base line fuel set up...

Normally what causes such a high VE ?
Yes i'm aware at the end of my pull i'm pushing the duty cycle and yes it can lean out at the same interval to cut back on the duty cycle, like i said i didn't get much time.

Thanks.
 

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High ve is from your global being off. I've learned to tune off flow tested injector data. When it comes to tuning speed density you need something "real" to plug in to calibrate everything. The only real thing you can use is actual injector flow that's been measured. I usually drop my global down, then move the sd table till my airflowperrev lines up with the factory numbers and that generally puts ve below 100. So basically move the global then zero the fuel trims with the table, rinse and repeat till your airflorperrev is .27-.30. The reason I use airflowperrev is it's also one of the only "constants" we know about our engines. It's not terribly critical or accurate, but it is a calculated value that's specific to a "normal" 2.0. You'll generally find that once you get the fuel trims zerod and the airflowperrev in check that the airflow numbers and ve numbers seem significantly more accurate. All that being said, I'm on my phone and did not look at your log. Your airflowperrev could already be there and some other scaling setting could be pushing ve up. Usually when I tune someone's car they complain that their ve is high and think they're making 700hp from link estimates and inflated airflow numbers and then you look and their airflowperrev is like .40+
 
High ve is from your global being off. I've learned to tune off flow tested injector data. When it comes to tuning speed density you need something "real" to plug in to calibrate everything. The only real thing you can use is actual injector flow that's been measured. I usually drop my global down, then move the sd table till my airflowperrev lines up with the factory numbers and that generally puts ve below 100. So basically move the global then zero the fuel trims with the table, rinse and repeat till your airflorperrev is .27-.30. The reason I use airflowperrev is it's also one of the only "constants" we know about our engines. It's not terribly critical or accurate, but it is a calculated value that's specific to a "normal" 2.0. You'll generally find that once you get the fuel trims zerod and the airflowperrev in check that the airflow numbers and ve numbers seem significantly more accurate. All that being said, I'm on my phone and did not look at your log. Your airflowperrev could already be there and some other scaling setting could be pushing ve up. Usually when I tune someone's car they complain that their ve is high and think they're making 700hp from link estimates and inflated airflow numbers and then you look and their airflowperrev is like .40+
So let's say you have injectors that test at 1550. You just plug 1550 in the calculator and call it a day with global? Then after that you only make adjustments to ve table and deatime?
 
Global is off.
 
So let's say you have injectors that test at 1550. You just plug 1550 in the calculator and call it a day with global? Then after that you only make adjustments to ve table and deatime?

Pretty much. The global just moves all values up or down. Think of the ve table. You want it to say your ve is 150? Mess with the global and change the table values till it says 150. You want it to say 50 do the opposite. You can have a car running 100% the same regardless of either of those options. It all just boils down to how accurate you want ecmlink to display numbers. When working with most ecu's you never touch a global scaler. The reason we use them so much in the dsm world is because we use a factory ecu that's just scaled up or down and fine tuned from there where most other ecu's you just drop in raw latency values and tune.

The whole idea of tuning is to get the car to run right which most people can do just fine and think that's enough. The thing that separates those from a good tune is whether the ecu actually displays accurate data. Like I said previously, you need some real number to relate all the ecu's "calculated" values to, such as calibrated fuel flow. Lets say you have Fic data match values in hand. A lot of people drop those in and say my car ran like crap on those settings, then change them from there rather than adjusting their current SD table to run with those numbers and seeing where that actually puts their airflow and horsepower numbers. Why would you not use the calibrated numbers and change the car around those? What makes you think they were wrong? Another example would be to tune the car however you want then actually dyno it and move your numbers around till your estimated hp curve matches your actual dyno curve. That's going back to matching the ecu to a real world calibration, just like Mitsubishi used a calibrated MAF from the factory.

A quick check to see if something is off is to look at your AFR tables and airflowperrev. If the afrtable doesn't match your wideband or airflowperrev is off then you need to change global. If those numbers match but something else is off, such as high VE numbers, you've used the correct method to tune but you've tuned the system around in inaccurate global.

I know a lot of this may seem vague and I'd be more than happy to elaborate on any of it in the event people are interested otherwise I will stop rambling on. Also I don't mean to imply my method of tuning is the best or the only way. I just don't like my car to be running fine with inaccurate values being displayed.
 
I like your rambling! Nice contribution to try to explain it!
 
The only real thing you can use is actual injector flow that's been measured.
Injector data is not the only real thing you can use. Widebands exist for a reason, which is why wbfactor is the preferred method to tune your VE table.

I usually drop my global down, then move the sd table till my airflowperrev lines up with the factory numbers and that generally puts ve below 100.
Airflowperrev is a horrible way to tune since it is literally airflow (which is only as accurate as your ve table) divided by rpm. It is only really good for idle tuning and even then, it sucks if you have large cams. Again, wbfactor is the way to go...

OP your WOT tune actually looks decent. Like others have stated, your global fuel just needs to be adjusted.
 
A simpilified way to see things is to dial in your afr table. Tweek globals and adjust ve to match afrs.
 
Injector data is not the only real thing you can use. Widebands exist for a reason, which is why wbfactor is the preferred method to tune your VE table.


Airflowperrev is a horrible way to tune since it is literally airflow (which is only as accurate as your ve table) divided by rpm. It is only really good for idle tuning and even then, it sucks if you have large cams. Again, wbfactor is the way to go...

OP your WOT tune actually looks decent. Like others have stated, your global fuel just needs to be adjusted.

I guess I should have stated that better as I did in the second reply I stated where you just needed a "constant". Wbfactor is one of the best ways to tune anything IF you have calibrated data from an outside source, but you set your global at idle so you're not chasing 110+ ve values later where you have to go back and retune from idle up.

As for the airflowperrev comment, you do have a point. It is only good for idle tuning and its NOT the main thing you tune from. Lets think of everything I can manipulate to make accurate.

WBfactor can read whatever I want and the airflow reading be inaccurate.
Global can be whatever I want and airflow be inaccurate.
Sd table can be whatever I want and airflow can be inaccurate.

These can all be inaccurate because they're dependent variables. So the idea I'm trying to communicate is you need an independent variable. Some constant from somewhere. Like the idea that airflowperrev being a set number, dyno values, injector values, or calibrated maf values.

A wideband, just like a maf or narrowband, can have variances, whereas calibrated injector flow data is specific to your set of injectors and has actually been measured under the exact conditions you'll be using. Even on a 100% bone stock dsm or evo you can get a maf that's 10% off just like widebands can be off.

Airflowperrev is just a secondary check for global. You cant tell how far off your global is with a wideband because you can make wbfactor line up perfect with the wrong global. That's why its best, at least in my practice, to set your global at idle and check it against airflowperrev AND fuel trims, or WBfactor since they do similar things. Fuel trims are likely better though because they use averaging and deviation.


And a bit of extra airflowperrev information:

If airflowperrev is only as accurate as your airflow divided by rpm, and I KNOW it should be AROUND the upper .2's or lower .3's that means I have 1 equation 1 unknown ( .3ish= inaccurate SDvalue/known RPM). The unknown SD value can be determined by fuel trims and Global. Global Is controlled by the calibrated fuel value we discussed earlier which makes everything solvable. NOW all of that is ASSUMING that the airflowperrev value of .3ish is accurate which you expressed concern about and warranted concern imo.

The airflowperrev value is only accurate on near stock CAM DEGREE SETTINGS. You can take a set of GSc s3's and degree them to pass similar air as stock cams at idle.

So back to reiterate, you are correct with the exception of "Airflowperrev is a horrible way to tune." Its just a third check to confirm that your global is in the general "correct" area.
 
When you say you tune at idle, do you mean closed loop and alter global until fuel trims zero out or do you mean going open loop and make wbfactor zero out with global?
 
Vegas, I play with global and DT (usually mostly DT, sometimes a tweek of the global one way or another) at idle to get my STFT and LTFT's to within 5% or so of zero, but that is just the way I do it.
 
When you say you tune at idle, do you mean closed loop and alter global until fuel trims zero out or do you mean going open loop and make wbfactor zero out with global?

Before we continue and I give tuning instructions just know that I am just another guy on the internet. I do not tune cars every day for a living or try to understand every single detail needed to create tuning software.
Youre half way right on both suggestions.

Lets present the scenario that you dont have aset of EV14 injectors from a reputable vendor and as a result, you do not have a supplied global value. In this case, you would pick a ballpark global, such as what others use or the calculated value and not touch it. From there you would either lock it in open loop or use the ECU fuel trim values. If you do not lock in open loop you'll chase the fuel trims to zero USING THE SD TABLE. If you lock in open loop, chase wbfactor to zero USING THE SD TABLE. Either will work, but using the closed loop method has advantages because it averages a large amount of deviations, where wb factor is instantaneous and occasionally interpolated between numerous cells. So once you get the fuel trims or wb factor to zero you check airflowperrev to see if it is in a reasonable range. Sometimes you will find that youve used global settings online, or from the calculator, and once youve got everything tuned correctly, your airflowperrev will be high .3's or in the .4's. This means your global is wrong. So you THEN move global, which throws all your SD table changes off slightly, and re- zero the sd table. Rinse, repeat.


Also for a reason which currently slips me, wb factor is not as accurate in low-load scenarios because afrestimate values are not directly from the direct access tables. I discussed this with the emclink mods a few years back and don't recall what they said other than they were not directly from the table like they are in higher load scenarios, but I can dig deeper if desired.
 
I'm impressed I'm seeing a lot of educated and well put-together analysis.

In this case is not " The Usual Suspects" which is good .
keep it coming guys thank you..



I completely agree That an actual measurement of volumetric flow is a powerful tool which one should not ignore...
However I no longer have my flow sheet but I did buy brand new from fic.

I saw an increase in values with longer duration cams.

so at idle airflow per Rev is where one expected.

combined fuel trims are near zero and wide band Factor as well, I have actually already implemented all of these recommendations.

I know it's not uncommon for there to be values greater than 100 in forced induction volume efficiency.

But like many of you state, I do prefer to do things the best way instead of the fast way like I did this last tuning.

And I'm sure the fuel pressure is contributing I just found it interesting that it did better at a higher pressure.
 
If your tables are somewhat complete/good and you have Link tools or knows someone that does you can use it to easily adjust the entire VE table for your new globals without starting all over or manually adjusting each individual vslue. It'll take only a few clicks.
 
A wideband, just like a maf or narrowband, can have variances, whereas calibrated injector flow data is specific to your set of injectors and has actually been measured under the exact conditions you'll be using. Even on a 100% bone stock dsm or evo you can get a maf that's 10% off just like widebands can be off.
Wideband manufacturers provide voltages that you can input into ECMLink. Better yet, ECMLink has many of them pre-defined. This is because these 'variances' are virtually negligible. My point is, a wideband (and therefore wbfactor) can be considered a known variable.

I think some things need to be clarified - are you recommending airflowperrev be used for closed-loop or open-loop tuning?
If closed-loop, and you were just stating it so that global fuel can be adjusted, then I misunderstood. It sounded like you were using airflowperrev for open-loop tuning...

EDIT: and just to be clear, I use wbfactor almost exclusively for open-loop tuning. ECMLink has a built-in tuner for closed-loop operation that works well enough for me.
 
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Wideband manufacturers provide voltages that you can input into ECMLink. Better yet, ECMLink has many of them pre-defined. This is because these 'variances' are virtually negligible. My point is, a wideband (and therefore wbfactor) can be considered a known variable.

I think some things need to be clarified - are you recommending airflowperrev be used for closed-loop or open-loop tuning?
If closed-loop, and you were just stating it so that global fuel can be adjusted, then I misunderstood. It sounded like you were using airflowperrev for open-loop tuning...

EDIT: and just to be clear, I use wbfactor almost exclusively for open-loop tuning. ECMLink has a built-in tuner for closed-loop operation that works well enough for me.

I am recommending airflowpewrrev exclusively for idle tuning whether you use wbfactor and lock in open loop or closed loop. Yes for WOT I also use wbfactor. I just use airflowperrev at idle to confirm global, once you know it is correct you can tun ecruise and WOT easily. Kind of like making sure a building foundation is level saves thousands of headaches building the rest.
 
@miliman13 I really hate to sound like a broken record here, but from the brief moment you were in an idle scenario your airflowperrev did seem high. While I do understand you have larger duration cams and you will have slightly higher numbers, yours seems to hover around .36. Factory is between .25 and .28 I believe which would imply your engine is flowing 30% more air than factory at idle or about the same as a 2.6 liter. I know that's not a direct comparison but its the only logical way I can explain how much of a difference there is between your value and what I aim for. For reference I used to tune my hsk272's on a VERY heavily ported 1g head pretty accurately comparing airflow numbers and trap speeds/weight and the airflowperrev was usually right around .30.

I was also about to recommend you enable antilag nlts but then I realized its an auto.
 
@miliman13 yours seems to hover around .36........................................................................I was also about to recommend you enable antilag nlts but then I realized its an auto.
Will i do agree with af/rev being that likely culprit. this isn't a good log of it at idle.

I've seen it at .3
With a smooth idle log.
Also.....How did you find an automatic?
And why the recommendation?
 
I assumed it was an auto cause I didn't see you clutchsw value change at any point and I thought your speed was a little high per gear but I did just shuffle through it real quick. Antilag between gears just gives a nice kick in the pants is all.

Your VE values at idle don't seem all that far off from most dsm's and if your airflowperrev lines out and the fuel trims are zerod I would look to fuel flow being the culprit. Usually when you run out of fuel it pushes the ve up like that. One time I tuned a car with plenty of injector and pump that ran the ve up to like 120+ and the owner said the injectors were just cleaned a couple months beforehand. After sending them off again they were incredibly clogged and replacing them fixed the problem. Just something to consider.
 
60psi base fuel pressure

60psi bfp is unnecessarily high, IMO. It matters much less at ldle, but you're probably not moving neay enough fuel at peak boost, which will directly correlate to an overly rich VE number needed to compensate for the lean condition.

Have you crunched the numbers to calculate fuel flow at peak boost?
 
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