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Cas install causing poor performance

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mintalontsi

Proven Member
42
1
Sep 11, 2014
Clifton, New_Jersey
Hi all, for the past couple of months i've had a cel for my cas. Recently it started to get bad with the car breaking up and hesitating under wot. I replaced the broken cas with a new cas from rockauto. I set the motor to where the cam angle marks lined up, installed cas, grounded, and set base timing to 5btdc using an adjustable timing light. I then started the car and noticed that it idles higher at 2k rpm and then goes to 1k once it's at operating temperature. The car used to start at 1500 rpm and drop to 850-1000rpm after a minute or 2 with the broken cas. When driving, the boost isn't hitting as hard (it's more linear vs when it hit hard with the older cas) and it's taking longer to come into boost (15-16psi at 5k vs around 35-38 w/older cas). The car is also hesitating high in the rpm's. I thought maybe it's a boost leak from the throttle body so i replaced the gaskets and torqued to spec and still the same problems. What do you guys think is going on?
 
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Fill out you dsm profile so we can see what your set up is. Boost leak test to at least 15psi using soap and water and spray all possible leak areas. (Do you have a Logger) is any of the data values off for any of the sensors MAF/IATS, TPS, CTS, O2 voltage, ISC, INJP? Verify the TPS is adjusted properly and getting proper signal. Check that the electrical wires on the harness side of the connectors of the CAS and TPS are not damaged and are seated in connector correctly. Check spark and associated electrical devices that supply it, PT, coil, plug wires, plugs. Verify mech timing. Check condition of ECU. I would still set timing the old fashioned way with the hash marks.
I boost leak tested in june and fixed leaks where injectors sit as well as in the throttle bottle and she was running amazingly. I've also changed the throttle body outer gasket from pulling the cas on and off so much. Nothing else has been messed with besides the cas. I manually tested the cas and i hear the fuel pump sounding off and hear and see spark. I'm going to try cleaning the inside of the used cas w/ electrical parts cleaner. The only code i was getting was a "22-cas".
 
Just giving you a heads up I would replace those capacitors before they start to leak destroy the board. Those are the original caps. And I don’t know what’s going on but it looks like there seems to be some surface / Trace damage to the left bottom of ic104 driver. Could just be the wax coating peeling up but really can't tell by that picture. Just going to give you my opinion on the cam angle sensor with the three cam angle sensors I had to replace none of them gave intermittent problems all three just completely failed and the car would not start. So I don't think it's the sensor itself that's your problem. That's just my opinion. When you're setting the timing the car has to be completely warmed up all accessories need to be off and idle speed needs to be at 750 to 800 RPMs then you ground the ECU to take control away from the ECU so it doesn’t advance timing. After you set timing at 5 degrees and unground, the ECU at idle 750 to 800 RPMs the ECU will take control and advanced timing to 8 to 10 degreeat at base idle. The higher the RPM when the ECU has control of timing the more the ECU will advance the timing. Hence why the timing is jumping up when you are raising RPM’s. How are you verifying the timing? What Data Logger are you using. And what are the values in the Data Logger that you're using that I asked about in a previous post at idle (TPS,mas,cts,ics,O2)? As I said before and I'll say it again I think you need to just get a stock harmonic balancer with a timing notch on it and set it the old fashion way. You could be off a little bit on your mechanical timing and be throwing off the process of setting the electronic timing with the cam gears. And as I said in a previous post verify mechanical timing.
 
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Am i just lucky? When I swapped motors the 96 cas took a crap right after startup. My buddy owns a DSM partout business so I pulled a blacktop cas off another motor, fabbed up a harness and stuck it on and fired her up. At that point the car was outside and it was freezing. Never even checked timing, my buddy says he just sticks them on and never had a problem. He was also rotating my crank counterclockwise when I arrived one day and claims to do it all the time.
I originally planned to check it with a light but 2 years later I just remembered LOL
 
Am i just lucky? When I swapped motors the 96 cas took a crap right after startup. My buddy owns a DSM partout business so I pulled a blacktop cas off another motor, fabbed up a harness and stuck it on and fired her up. At that point the car was outside and it was freezing. Never even checked timing, my buddy says he just sticks them on and never had a problem. He was also rotating my crank counterclockwise when I arrived one day and claims to do it all the time.
I originally planned to check it with a light but 2 years later I just remembered LOL

Well your supposed adjust/match timing using your timing light to the timing value you see on your data logger.
 
Am i just lucky? When I swapped motors the 96 cas took a crap right after startup. My buddy owns a DSM partout business so I pulled a blacktop cas off another motor, fabbed up a harness and stuck it on and fired her up. At that point the car was outside and it was freezing. Never even checked timing, my buddy says he just sticks them on and never had a problem. He was also rotating my crank counterclockwise when I arrived one day and claims to do it all the time.
I originally planned to check it with a light but 2 years later I just remembered LOL

It may be running decent enough without the timing being checked but you could also we losing a lot of power if it is not set correctly.
 
Just giving you a heads up I would replace those capacitors before they start to leak destroy the board. Those are the original caps. And I don’t know what’s going on but it looks like there seems to be some surface / Trace damage to the left bottom of ic104 driver. Could just be the wax coating peeling up but really can't tell by that picture. Just going to give you my opinion on the cam angle sensor with the three cam angle sensors I had to replace none of them gave intermittent problems all three just completely failed and the car would not start. So I don't think it's the sensor itself that's your problem. That's just my opinion. When you're setting the timing the car has to be completely warmed up all accessories need to be off and idle speed needs to be at 750 to 800 RPMs then you ground the ECU to take control away from the ECU so it doesn’t advance timing. After you set timing at 5 degrees and unground, the ECU at idle 750 to 800 RPMs the ECU will take control and advanced timing to 8 to 10 degreeat at base idle. The higher the RPM when the ECU has control of timing the more the ECU will advance the timing. Hence why the timing is jumping up when you are raising RPM’s. How are you verifying the timing? What Data Logger are you using. And what are the values in the Data Logger that you're using that I asked about in a previous post at idle (TPS,mas,cts,ics,O2)? As I said before and I'll say it again I think you need to just get a stock harmonic balancer with a timing notch on it and set it the old fashion way. You could be off a little bit on your mechanical timing and be throwing off the process of setting the electronic timing with the cam gears. And as I said in a previous post verify mechanical timing.


The ecu will be sent out in a couple months to ecmlink for a dsmlink chipset [previous owner stated the car had dsmlink but since pulling the ecu i now see it's just a chiptune] and i'll have them go over the ecu to determine what needs replacing. It's not damaged, that's the board wax. I recently cleaned the used CAS w/electrical parts cleaner and re-installed it. I set it at 5btdc. After setting timing and removing the ecu ground the timing is around 8-9 degrees this time when it was previously at 13 before cleaning. My idle is currently 750rpm. I did the whole timing procedure that you're describing about 7 times now between switching cas's. I'm doing it straight from the manual besides using harmonic balancer. The way i am verifying timing is, once i am at 5btdc i shut car down and remove ecu ground. I then re-start the car and aim the timing light at the cam gears and adjust the timing knob one degree at a time until the cam marks line up. They are lining up around 8-9 degrees. I know this because when i set the gun to 8-9 degrees the cam marks line up. I assume this is a decent way to verify timing? Or is my logic off on that method? I am going to find and order a harmonic balancer today just to verify timing that way. While i'm waiting on the balancer to arrive i'll pull lower timing cover and make sure everything lines up. I highly doubt the timing is off. The reason that i doubt that the timing is off is because i replaced the t-belt and all components 3k miles ago and all was performing well. However, i did have intermediate cas codes on and off before replacing it. I don't want to get too ahead of anything but, could what i'm experiencing be a bad coil pack? I figure that if it's not a compression issue it has to be something with spark. I'll check the timing once this balancer gets here first though.
 
I finally got around to checking the mechanical timing and installing an oem crank pulley. The mechanical timing IS off a bit although it may just be the camera angle making me think that the crank is aligned. What do you guys think?
 

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I finally got around to checking the mechanical timing and installing an oem crank pulley. The mechanical timing IS off a bit although it may just be the camera angle making me think that the crank is aligned. What do you guys think?
Its hard to see the cams. Looks off like intake is retarded and exhaust is advanced. You may think the marks line up but they arent. Cant see the outer edge but the dowels should point straight up (spoke straight up) and it appears they don't. Check with a straightedge and mirror.
 
Its hard to see the cams. Looks off like intake is retarded and exhaust is advanced. You may think the marks line up but they arent. Cant see the outer edge but the dowels should point straight up (spoke straight up) and it appears they don't. Check with a straightedge and mirror.

The mechanical timing WAS off 1/4-1/2 tooth. With the crank timing arrows aligned the cam timing marks were off. I readjusted the t-belt so everything lined up. I adjusted the cas and timed the motor to 5btdc on the crank pulley. After i adjusted the mechanical timing the car started alot smoother. It's startup idle was 1500 rpm which then went to 800-850 after a few mins. When the timing was off it would idle at 2500 rpm before taking a few minutes to lower to 800-850. For the ignition timing i set the gun to 0 and moved the cas until the crank pointed to 5btdc on crank pulley. After the ignition timing i then set the gun from 0 to 5btdc and pointed it at the camshafts and the marks didn't align. Does that have any significance?
 
Dont confuse ignition timing and mechanical timing. When the belt lines up youre done. Anything done with a light has no bearing on mechanical timing.
 
Dont confuse ignition timing and mechanical timing. When the belt lines up youre done. Anything done with a light has no bearing on mechanical timing.

Yes, i am aware of the difference between mechanical and ignition timing. I have the mechanical timing marks all aligned. I took the car for a test drive and everything seems well with healthy smooth acceleration except for an ever so slight hiccup around 5500-6k rpm at full throttle. I'm thinking maybe the ignition timing is slightly off due to the viewing angle of the timing cover marks so maybe i'll set the gun to 5btdc and adjust the cas until the cam timing marks align for better accuracy? This ignition timing method is described in post 7-9 of this thread, http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/adjusting-timing-with-cas.354891/
 
I suppose you can do it that way but the viewing angle of the crank pulley is such that you look at it dead on. It was designed that way. If you own a dial back timing light I don't see a problem with using the cam marks. You would be correct as the point of those tools is to use the larger tdc mark so you can see it. In this case yes cam marks would be aligned also.
 
I have the mechanical timing marks all aligned. I took the car for a test drive and everything seems well with healthy smooth acceleration except for an ever so slight hiccup around 5500-6k rpm at full throttle. I'm thinking maybe the ignition timing is slightly off due to the viewing angle of the timing cover marks so maybe i'll set the gun to 5btdc and adjust the cas until the cam timing marks align for better accuracy?

Glad to hear you you sorted out the mech timing. In reference to the hiccup you are having at 5500-6k how much boost are you running? What plug are you running 6's or 7s and what is you gap set at? i would check them and adjust a bit before adjusting the CAS after you set it at the harmonic balancer. I have no idea why you are having a discrepancy between the timing on the HB and the cams. I have always used the HB and have never had issues. I have played with the elec timing for spool and the tune when running a SAFC.
 
Glad to hear you you sorted out the mech timing. In reference to the hiccup you are having at 5500-6k how much boost are you running? What plug are you running 6's or 7s and what is you gap set at? i would check them and adjust a bit before adjusting the CAS after you set it at the harmonic balancer. I have no idea why you are having a discrepancy between the timing on the HB and the cams. I have always used the HB and have never had issues. I have played with the elec timing for spool and the tune when running a SAFC.

I am running 15-16 lbs. I believe my plugs are 6's. Gap is .28. I don't think these are the problem as i've had them in while the car was running at its best. I tried timing the motor from the cam marks (gun set to 5) and boost came on better and i got a cel but i got hesitation and backfiring after the turbo spooled. I then re-timed from the HB at 5btdc (gun set to 0) and there are still slight hiccups every once in awhile but i'm getting full boost at 5k w/o a cel. I am stumped.
 
I am running 15-16 lbs. I believe my plugs are 6's. Gap is .28. I don't think these are the problem as i've had them in while the car was running at its best. I tried timing the motor from the cam marks (gun set to 5) and boost came on better and i got a cel but i got hesitation and backfiring after the turbo spooled. I then re-timed from the HB at 5btdc (gun set to 0) and there are still slight hiccups every once in awhile but i'm getting full boost at 5k w/o a cel. I am stumped.

Here is your problem/issue with the adjustable timing light and waste spark ignition. Read this post: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-question.515660/#post-153676020
So set the timing light to "0" and adjust to 5btdc on HB. And then you could try setting the dial on the gun to 10*btdc (because of the waste spark ignition cut events in half) and check it at the cams and HB to see if they correlate (cams should line up and timing mark on HB should line up at "0" on timing cover). But i wouldn't trust setting the elec timing using the advance feature on that timing light, do it the old fashioned way. As for the slight hiccups i would run through the basics as i have stated in previous posts. Also what are you seeing on your logger (are you using one?) when the hiccup happens at 5-6k - knock, timing, IDC, O2??? If your not using a logger of some kind you really need to get one. Also do you still have the 1g mafs in there with the lower HC removed as it says on the keydriver chip or does it have a 2g mafs in it?
 
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Here is your problem/issue with the adjustable timing light and waste spark ignition. Read this post: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-question.515660/#post-153676020
So set the timing light to "0" and adjust to 5btdc on HB. And then you could try setting the dial on the gun to 10*btdc (because of the waste spark ignition cut events in half) and check it at the cams and HB to see if they correlate (cams should line up and timing mark on HB should line up at "0" on timing cover). But i wouldn't trust setting the elec timing using the advance feature on that timing light, do it the old fashioned way. As for the slight hiccups i would run through the basics as i have stated in previous posts. Also what are you seeing on your logger (are you using one?) when the hiccup happens at 5-6k - knock, timing, IDC, O2??? If your not using a logger of some kind you really need to get one. Also do you still have the 1g mafs in there with the lower HC removed as it says on the keydriver chip or does it have a 2g mafs in it?

After taking a break from this car for a while due to other projects i decided to get back into it today. I re-did a boost leak test and fixed 4 leaks at the ic pipe couplers and the throttle body gasket. After that i figured "those boost leaks probably were the culprit" I then test drove the car and still have turbo lag until 5-6k along with the backfire. I do not have a data logger. Can you recommend One? I have a 1g MAF. Are you reffering to a possible lower honey comb in the maf? On my 1g MAf the only honeycomb is only the rectangular honeycomb window.
 
After taking a break from this car for a while due to other projects i decided to get back into it today. I re-did a boost leak test and fixed 4 leaks at the ic pipe couplers and the throttle body gasket. After that i figured "those boost leaks probably were the culprit" I then test drove the car and still have turbo lag until 5-6k along with the backfire. I do not have a data logger. Can you recommend One? I have a 1g MAF. Are you reffering to a possible lower honey comb in the maf? On my 1g MAf the only honeycomb is only the rectangular honeycomb window.
I missed this awhile back. Do not use a dialback light on these cars. Read the stuff above. I don't like the idea so I set the timing to zero and use the harmonic balancer. Based on everything I read above I think your base timing is wrong. Also you sounded like you were confused that timing changes once you unground the connector. It's supposed to do that.
 
I missed this awhile back. Do not use a dialback light on these cars. Read the stuff above. I don't like the idea so I set the timing to zero and use the harmonic balancer. Based on everything I read above I think your base timing is wrong. Also you sounded like you were confused that timing changes once you unground the connector. It's supposed to do that.

I timed the car back in february the way linksys42 suggested with the timing light set to zero and turning the cas until the HB was at 5btdc. When i ungrounded the pin for idle the timing went to around 7-9btdc which i know the car is supposed to do. I'm not confused about the timing anymore. I checked mechanical timing twice and set ignition timing as stated above. I researched and read up alot on everything timing related so i'm pretty sure ignition timing is good.
 
Is it just the lower honeycomb missing or the entire tube? What is the car doing? Update us.

All my MAF has is one honeycomb box. I don't know what they are supposed to look like so i attached a photo of my MAF.

On initial cold start, the rpms go to 2k and they will stay there for 3 mins or so and eventually make their way to 8-900rpm once the car is at operating temperature. I'm not getting full 15psi boost until around 5-6k rpm. The car is cutting out and backfiring at 7k. It also felt like it wanted to stall a couple times after i was backing out of the garage from reverse to neutral and again when i made a u-turn in 2nd gear to neutral after the test pull.
 

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All my MAF has is one honeycomb box. I don't know what they are supposed to look like so i attached a photo of my MAF.

On initial cold start, the rpms go to 2k and they will stay there for 3 mins or so and eventually make their way to 8-900rpm once the car is at operating temperature. I'm not getting full 15psi boost until around 5-6k rpm. The car is cutting out and backfiring at 7k. It also felt like it wanted to stall a couple times after i was backing out of the garage from reverse to neutral and again when i made a u-turn in 2nd gear to neutral after the test pull.
You mas is complete except the lower honeycomb. It’s fine. If all you changed was cas and it boosts so late I think your timing is still off and or you have it installed 180 out. Cause and effect here.
 
You mas is complete except the lower honeycomb. It’s fine. If all you changed was cas and it boosts so late I think your timing is still off and or you have it installed 180 out. Cause and effect here.

I figured that the maf would be good. The cas is in its correct position. I am convinced that it has to be timing related. I am going to go through the ignition timing procedure again after i first check that the hb tdc mark lines up when i align the cam gears. When i had previously did the ignition timing i was looking at the timing cover marks from the vantage point through the the opening in the sheet metal behind the driver headlight and looking downward with one eye at the timing cover marks. That viewpoint, to me, seemed like it was the most dead on view. Or is that an incorrect view point?
 
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