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Street Build bkrathwohl's Galant VR4 #1228/2000

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Yeah, i've ran into nothing but problems with this stupid turbo. Drain hit the motor mount (as i've documented) and denting the water pipe.

I did my boost leak test yesterday and the compressor cover is leaking at the snapring...so that is going to be fun. It looks like people RTV around the outside to get it to seal properly. The annoying part is that there is no room for me to take the compressor cover off how it sits in the car, so the radiator is going to have to be drained and pulled out before I can even get access to that area.

I'll likely have to pull the whole unit out to do this work-around. I'm debating on just getting rid of this turbo and getting one that doesn't blow, no pun intended.
 
GM MAF over SD? You're handicapping yourself.

What issue were you having with SD?
 
GM MAF. I don't see how i'm handicapping myself, people have ran MAFs for years without issue. SD is nice, but its not significantly better than a nice MAF setup.

The issue is I don't know how to tune SD right now, and I don't feel like taking the time to learn it at the moment. I'd like to get this car up and driving spiritedly before it sits in the garage for another winter, so going back to MAF isn't a huge deal.
 
While I generally agree that you sometimes have to make lemonade with the lemons you're dealt, I think Brett might just be pointing out that using MAF introduces a flow restriction not present with SD. All things held equal, this will cost you a bit of power, even with a lower power application. There's also the fact that SD is a bit more versatile from a tuning perspective; MAF tuning can be super finicky about air routing, close crankcase ventilation, air leaks, etc...

However, like I said, sometimes you just gotta work with what you know, so I understand going MAF if that's the best way you know to get the car up and going.
 
Your points and end result contradict each other. In what cases would you want to have a boost leak? In what case would you want a sharp angle in air flow? And why would you put a band-aid on them by switching to SD?
Also, the amount of power you would lose below the threshold I spoke about is so little that you would not even notice.

When I was on SD and decided to switch back to MAF i recorded the airflow. The differences were so minimal I never looked back. Differences were below 50 hz
This was at roughly 500hp.

Please post your data.
 
Your points and end result contradict each other. In what cases would you want to have a boost leak? In what case would you want a sharp angle in air flow? And why would you put a band-aid on them by switching to SD?
Also, the amount of power you would lose below the threshold I spoke about is so little that you would not even notice.

When I was on SD and decided to switch back to MAF i recorded the airflow. The differences were so minimal I never looked back. Differences were below 50 hz
This was at roughly 500hp.

Please post your data.

Who are you addressing with this post?
 
The goal of this car isn't going to be anywhere near the threshold that people suggest switching to SD. I just want a fun street-able car.

For my particular setup MAF is perfectly fine, I may switch back to SD to learn it but it isn't going to be because I need it to make more power.

As always, though, I do appreciate hearing input from others.
 
I'm specifically talking about GM MAFs. GM MAFs being garbage is more my opinion based on my experience with them, rather than fact, I suppose. It's the tuner who makes the power, not necessarily the equipment in this case. If a MAF, or GM MAF is what you're most comfortable with, then I'd say stick with it. As such, my car runs all around better on SD than it ever did on a MAF, so I prefer it.

I say handicap because GM MAFs are notorious for being garbage on DSMs. That especially holds true when interfaced with ECMlink for some reason. Personally, I've never seen a single GM MAF car that had a consistent all around (idle, cruise, WOT) tune. Not one. Maybe Bastard's car is the exception I've yet to see? Even so, good luck to the average Joe doing whatever the hell he had to do to get the thing to run like stock, which I assure you wasn't tweak the MAFcomp table in ECMlink. Dude wrote his own tune/code for god's sake...

Considering that, I think they are a handicap when compared to the many cars I've seen and tuned on extremely consistent SD setups, or even other MAF setups (like the Evo 8 MAF, for example).

Lastly, there's no power threshold where SD makes more or less sense, IMO. The tune and tech are tailored for the build, and to the builders preference. When the tech limits the consistency of the tune, that's where you'll run into problems. If you're BastardDSM coding your own tune from scratch, it doesn't really matter what MAF is on the car. But, if you're the average DSM guy asking for 3rd gear pull advice on a GM MAF setup, I'll personally tell you to ditch that junk every time.
 
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I'm specifically talking about GM MAFs. GM MAFs being garbage is more my opinion based on my experience with them, rather than fact, I suppose. It's the tuner who makes the power, not necessarily the equipment in this case. If a MAF, or GM MAF is what you're most comfortable with, then I'd say stick with it. As such, my car runs all around better on SD than it ever did on a MAF, so I prefer it.

I say handicap because GM MAFs are notorious for being garbage on DSMs. That especially holds true when interfaced with ECMlink for some reason. Personally, I've never seen a single GM MAF car that had a consistent all around (idle, cruise, WOT) tune. Not one. Maybe Bastard's car is the exception I've yet to see? Even so, good luck to the average Joe doing whatever the hell he had to do to get the thing to run like stock, which I assure you wasn't tweak the MAFcomp table in ECMlink. Dude wrote his own tune/code for god's sake...

Considering that, I think they are a handicap when compared to the many cars I've seen and tuned on extremely consistent SD setups, or even other MAF setups (like the Evo 8 MAF, for example).

Lastly, there's no power threshold where SD makes more or less sense, IMO. The tune and tech are tailored for the build, and to the builders preference. When the tech limits the consistency of the tune, that's where you'll run into problems. If you're BastardDSM coding your own tune from scratch, it doesn't really matter what MAF is on the car. But, if you're the average DSM guy asking for 3rd gear pull advice on a GM MAF setup, I'll personally tell you to ditch that junk every time.

Per your post, the reasons why its bad:
Its "garbage" (no examples given.)
Its "inconsistent" (no examples given.)
They are "handicap" (again no reasons)
Theres no power threshold where SD makes less/more power (Opinion based, no reasons)

SD is fad, get over it.
I also like how you dont reference my car as another exception. Rather funny as I gave examples. But what do I know, Im no MOD.
 
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Anyone who wants to claim that, all things being held equal, a MAF system is better than an SD system has the burden of proof to disprove fundamental fluid mechanics.

The argument of MAF being better than SD is therefore rendered to functional requirements, system limitations, and/or personal preference. These things may be perfectly valid reasons to favor MAF over SD but for all out performance, it's simply. not. true.
 
For all out performance I never said it wasnt true. So I would like to thank you for putting words in my mouth. Makes. you. look. even. smarter....
Also, I would not consider a DSM at 500hp "all out performance". Maybe you do because thats all you can make? Who knows.
 
For all out performance I never said it wasnt true. So I would like to thank you for putting words in my mouth. Makes. you. look. even. smarter....
Also, I would not consider a DSM at 500hp "all out performance". Maybe you do because thats all you can make? Who knows.

Look man, I'm not sure why you're being so combative and argumentative in your staunch defense of MAF systems. You asked for an explicit valid reason and I gave it to you. I'm sorry if an intelligent response makes you feel threatened. At this point, unless you have something constructive to contribute to the conversation maybe it's time you move on to a different thread.
 
Oh.. I'm so sorry @bkrathwohl that this has turned into this but I've got to point a few things out.

Brett said.. very simply. that this was his opinion. multiple times.
I'm specifically talking about GM MAFs. GM MAFs being garbage is more my opinion based on my experience with them, rather than fact, I suppose. It's the tuner who makes the power, not necessarily the equipment in this case. If a MAF, or GM MAF is what you're most comfortable with, then I'd say stick with it. As such, my car runs all around better on SD than it ever did on a MAF, so I prefer it.

There's nothing to attack there if you keep the message in context. He's also stating that it is soley GM mafs that are the problem, not all MAF cars in general.. so again. out of context.
 
Oh.. I'm so sorry @bkrathwohl that this has turned into this but I've got to point a few things out.

It's the internet, I wouldn't expect any less! I think both have their ups and downs. Lots of people run both with great results.

I have started my base tune, I was pretty solid at 20psi, i've moved up to ~28psi now. I'm just having issues getting afratioest/wideband and boostest/map to line up. It's progress though!
 
Brett said.. very simply. that this was his opinion. multiple times.
This is what I was pointing out, all opinion based. Some other people with ego problems look past this.

Anyways, glad to hear you are staying with MAF, you'll enjoy it a lot more when the seasons start changing. Happy tuning!
 
Oh.. I'm so sorry @bkrathwohl that this has turned into this but I've got to point a few things out.

I second this. I was actually going to point out that we were effectively high-jacking your build thread, that it was impolite and inconsiderate, and I'm sorry about that.

I'll be explicit in stating to @livedsm4g63, if you have anything else you'd like to say about my ego, or if you have a problem with the responses I'm providing or how I'm providing them, feel free to PM me about it. Seems to me I was trying to be objective in my responses, but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

Regarding the MAF :beatentodeath::beatentodeath::beatentodeath::beatentodeath::beatentodeath:... I think the common takeaway is that, although there's a good fundamental reason for SD vs. MAF, if you like MAF and you can make it work, go for it. Seems like that's what you're doing without issue, so more power to you (;) see what I did there). I like your build, keep up the good work.
 
Its the internet for one second everyone will have his or her opinon in something sometimes for me i just ignore posts and carry on.
 
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