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Bogs down, P0300, Open loop

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ryshinazy

10+ Year Contributor
31
1
Apr 4, 2010
Berthoud, Colorado
Ok guys I'm at my wits end with this issue. I've done research on here and tried everything I found with no solutions, and I've also used Identifix and Alldata and I'm running out of parts to test or replace

The car:
It's a 95 GSX shell and awd trans with a 97 GST motor, wire harness and ecu. Mostly stock, w/ injen intake, obx front mount, 3" down pipe back exhaust w/ magnaflow CAT, ssqv bov

The problem:
Once the vehicle is warmed up a bit and and I'm cruising along the check engine light comes on with a P0300 and bogs down and starts running like shit. If I let off for a while or shut the car off and restart it, it will drive fine for a while. I did notice it seems to go into open loop when the issue happens and it runs like garbage until it goes back to closed loop

What I have already replaced:
Both ignition coils
Spark plugs
Plug wires
Power transfer unit/ ignition control module
Fuel pump assembly
Fuel filter
Fuel injectors
Fuel pump relays
ECU overhauled by ECMTuning
Removed wire harness and repaired wires
Removed timing belt and reset timing dead on
The motor just came from the machine shop with all new internals
misc etc

I'm seriously out of ideas of what it could be and I'm sick of throwing parts at it, does anyone have any ideas of what I can test next or what the problem could be???

I don't have dsm link but I do have a Snap On scan tool for diag
 
I couldn't find any explanation of "OL DRV" or "OL Drive" in the Ethos Pro manual (66 pages thank god for 'edit find' LOL).
But poking around on the web for it, I think it's like this:
"OL" is open loop during conditions that are normal for open loop.
"OL DRV" is open loop during conditions where you really should be in closed loop but something is wrong so the ecu puts it into open loop.
So, I guess we already kind of knew that, but interesting anyway. I think it's consistent with what we see in your scan video. The airflow is so low that closed loop would be expected, but it's in open loop for some reason.

The 19 g/s airflow at 32% throttle still doesn't add up for me. That's only 2.5 pounds/minute. That's awfully low airflow for 1/3 throttle.
Actually 1/3 throttle and 2700 rpm is close to where you could be going into open loop territory with a 1g (OBD1) but there would be a lot more airflow. I don't know if a 2g (OBDII) would hit open loop at the same point as a 1g.

If you shoot another video of the scanner sometime, it would be good to see readouts of the voltage from the front and rear O2 sensors. But you would want to increase the sample rate of the scanner a little. It looks like it might be set to about 1 sample per second. Something like 4 samples per second would be better.

How much spark plug gap are you using?
 
Ok noob question but Ive always run NGK plugs but no parts stores near me have NGK copper plugs, can I run Autolites, or should I special order some NGK copper plugs?

and I gap them to the Alldata spec of
0.7 - 0.8 mm (0.028 - 0.031 in)
 
I don't know about Autolites. They are probably ok but I would stick with NGK.
NGK part numbers might be a little confusing because they have added a "Stock Number" to what I would call the normal plug part number.
So the NGK copper core plugs are like this:
BPR6ES (Stock No 7131) is the stock heat range plug.
BPR7ES (Stock No 5534) is the 1 step colder plug that most people use when they are running more boost than stock, and mods.

That gap range you posted is right, and usually people use the .028" number. If your boost and mods are quite a ways beyond stock, then you would need less than .028" gap. For instance, on my car, for ~30psi boost, English Racing told me to use BPR7ES with .020" gap. But then when I looked at the plugs they put in, they are NGK "Iridium IX" BPR7EIX and they have been working fine LOL although I don't have a whole lot of miles on them yet.

The regular 7131 or 5534 plugs should cost about $2.50 each.
The "Iridium IX" plugs are about $8 each.

In case there is any confusion about the metals used - The regular 7131 and 5534 plugs you are looking for have nickel electrodes and copper "cores". The center electrode and side electrode are both made of nickel. It is only the "core" of it that is copper.
So for example, Advance Auto Parts calls them "Nickel" spark plugs, and that is correct. But if you look in their full specs they show the center core is copper.
Autozone calls them "Standard copper", but again, if you look in their full specs, they have the correct info there.
 
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I would order the NGK plugs. I get mine from rockauto.com BTW. I had bad luck with the Autolite copper plugs. Thye crapped out quickly with little miles but work fine when first installed new.
 
Ok as expected, special ordered NGK coppers from work, threw them in and the misfire came back right away.

I didn't bring my scanner home but I'll take a new video soon
 
I started tearing down into some stuff but I'm gonna need to bring home some tools to get the intake off.

I wanted to get some input on something tho. There has been a rattle ever since I had the motor rebuilt this time that sounded like it was behind the timing cover. I pulled it off and there was a bunch of slack in the timing belt, like maybe the tensioner is going out since I've had the timing redone at least 5+ times on the same tensioner. Does anyone think a slack timing belt could cause any misfire issues?
 
I started tearing down into some stuff but I'm gonna need to bring home some tools to get the intake off.

I wanted to get some input on something tho. There has been a rattle ever since I had the motor rebuilt this time that sounded like it was behind the timing cover. I pulled it off and there was a bunch of slack in the timing belt, like maybe the tensioner is going out since I've had the timing redone at least 5+ times on the same tensioner. Does anyone think a slack timing belt could cause any misfire issues?

Wait, what timing have you redone 5 times? The timing belt/cams position? Has the cam timing belt skipped a tooth so that the cams are out of position?

Anyway, these parts fortunately are still available, new OEM beautiful stuff and not overpriced, and choice of aftermarket belts. Like this:
http://www.streettunedmotorsports.com/parts/stm_dsm_timing_belt_kit.htm

Now with crazy cams and valve springs I sometimes notice slack in the timing belt when the engine is just sitting there at rest. It seems to depend on where the engine comes to rest when I shut it off, and how long it's been sitting. That slack disappears immediately when I rotate the crank by hand with a wrench just a few degrees.
But I never noticed slack like that when the stock cams were in it.

The slack I sometimes see is up on top, between the cam wheels. Where are you seeing slack?
 
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So I set the timing once on a new rebuild, spun a bearing after 30k, had it rebuild again, set the timing, water pump went out so I replaced just the water pump and had to take the timing belt off again, then reset the timing, didn't think it was quite right so I reset it again with one of the other techs at my work. Not sure if those tensioner can be compressed and released that many times or if I'm just tripping
 
The slack is on the right side where the right idler sits, I can spin the idler by hand while the belt is on, and when I had it running and I was trying to find the source of the rattle the belt on that side seemed like it was slapping around quite a bit
 
The slack is on the right side where the right idler sits, I can spin the idler by hand while the belt is on, and when I had it running and I was trying to find the source of the rattle the belt on that side seemed like it was slapping around quite a bit

Well, that behavior while running doesn't sound good to me.
I'm no expert on what is normal with the timing belt but I don't think there should be any slack while the engine is running. Maybe a little when the engine is shut off is ok.
The tensioner, it has a steel spring inside, and it also gets oil pressure that pumps it up when the engine is running. Those are the 2 things that make the tension.
So as far as how many times can you compress and release it when rebuilding, I think as many times as you want.
But with age and miles, the spring could get weaker or even break, and the hydraulic cylinder function of it might get worse too, I mean, rubber seals probably, exposed to oil, 20 plus years old, it could be a problem!
If you are going to get in there anyway and can get all those parts out, I would think that a new tensioner, tensioner pulley, and idler pulley, would all be good things.
The tensioner and idler pulleys - sealed ball bearings in those things. If they are the original ones, the grease and rubber seals in them are ancient now.

Do you have one of those Jay Racing tools for tensioning the eccentric wheels?
http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_229&products_id=48
 
These particular tensions don't get oil pressure from the engine but have their own hydraulic system which is why I wonder how many times they can be compressed

Then as far as the parts they were replaced the first time the motor was rebuild about 5 years ago so they aren't too old.

I don't have that specific tool, when I've done it I just use a pair of right angle Snap ring pliers and twist the pulley around
 
Oh I didn't know they have their own hydraulic system.
Well if those parts are only 5 years old they should still be good, even though they've been compressed a few times for insertion.
As far as the special tool, anything you do to approximate the 24 inch-pounds of twist they want on that thing, should be ok. And that isn't much torque LOL.
Anyway, if the belt has not actually jumped a tooth or two, I don't think any of this would be the cause of your bad running.
 
I'm posting a screen shot from a DSMlink log that I have lying around here, not my car. But I'm pretty sure this car is more stock than mine and probably has a stock throttle body. It has an evo 3 16g turbo.
Posting this so you can see that at the vertical white line, where all the numbers are from, at that moment the throttle position is 30% and the airflow is 66 g/s. Of course this engine is running right, not misfiring. It is going around at 3500 rpm which is a little more than you showed in your video.
Anyway, 3 times the airflow your video showed at the same throttle. Not in boost here yet, according to boost estimate.
My own logs show the same thing at these conditions, even with Boomba throttle body and totally different turbo.


You can see it is still in closed loop, by the cycling up and down of the blue curve for the front O2. That curve looks funny, all squarish, because it is actually a wideband doing narrow band simulation.

What else, well, timing looks reasonable - lots of advance because it is so lightly loaded at the moment, but the timing is coming down rapidly as you go to the right there.

The uppermost green curve is throttle % which goes up to 100% a few seconds to the right.
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you should not have any slack on your timing belt. do a leak down test. Possible that your crank position sensor is out of sync due to the slack?
 
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