Stupid question

Dave2g · Mar 20, 2017

So I'm completely new to the platform and picked this car up without knowing all too much about it.
I'm not scared of crankwalk or any of the issues in general, but I do want some direction on the car.

At this point I don't have any money burning a hole in my pocket to go get a dyno and tune, however the car was tuned before me seems to be safe. Rich under boost and pretty much spot on AFR's cruising. But I'd like to have an idea of how I should be driving the car.

The wastegate spring is set to somewhere between 25-30psi.

I still need to play with the ecmlink, but I'm thinking of duplicating the current map and seeing if I can make any improvements. I also would like to check for knock at different points of drivability in the current tune.

Based on my mods, how tame should I be driving the car at risk of the bottom end going?
I cannot confirm that the bottom end is rebuilt, nor that the head is as built as stated in the mods (except for the cam, LOL

) since they were not done by me. However, all of the other mods are absolutely there.

I'm reposting the mods here so that you don't need to reference my build profile.

Rebuilt Oem bottom end. 20 over. Balance shaft delete
Gates timing belt and tensioner
Ported and polished head
Super tech +1 intake and exhaust valves
Kiggly beehive valve Springs
Super tech valve guides
Revised 2g lifters
3 angle valve job
Bc 272/272 cams
Finanza clutch and flywheel
Ecmlink v2 tuned by Franklyn Ramirez
Tubular t3 manifold
Garrett 50 trim
Tial mvr 44mm
3 inch side exit exhaust
Walbro 255
Braided fuel lines
Fuel lab fpr
Fic 1000cc injectors
4 inch fp intake
Vsrf fmic
Greddy bov

TLDR: Based on these mods and with safe looking afr's should I be weary of pushing the car? From what I've gathered by looking around this should be around 400-450hp. Correct me if I'm wrong.

twicks69 · Mar 20, 2017

That's pretty much the upper limits of the stock block for rods/pistons.

I am assuming you are on straight E85 if you are running that kind of boost. The stock 2G pistons on 93-octane don't really like more than like 22psi on a turbo that size before E85 or race fuel would be the recommended fuel.

I would keep it in the 25-30psi range if you want it to live. You start turning it up past that and say bye bye.

Dave2g · Mar 20, 2017

twicks69 said:
That's pretty much the upper limits of the stock block for rods/pistons.

I am assuming you are on straight E85 if you are running that kind of boost. The stock 2G pistons on 93-octane don't really like more than like 22psi on a turbo that size before E85 or race fuel would be the recommended fuel.

I would keep it in the 25-30psi range if you want it to live. You start turning it up past that and say bye bye.

Nope, just 93. Would I be maxing out my injectors and pump with e85 or can I just get a tune for it and run? I haven't calculated duty cycles yet. I definetly want it to last a while, my e30's are under the knife right now so I'm dailying it.

EDIT: I guess since I'm asking the question the answer is probably no, but is e85 something that I can tune the car for myself just as if I am tuning on 93 octane? Just adjusting the fuel map, watching for knock and pulling timing accordingly?

1990TSIAWDTALON · Mar 20, 2017

YES you can tune it, are you comfortable with tuning? I tuned my E85 car, it may not be perfect but it runs pretty dam good for FREE.

Dave2g · Mar 20, 2017

1990TSIAWDTALON said:
YES you can tune it, are you comfortable with tuning? I tuned my E85 car, it may not be perfect but it runs pretty dam good for FREE.

Yeah, I'm fairly comfortable tuning. I am familiar with the concepts and I understand what I am doing. Whether or not I am perfect or good at it is another story haha. So should I just do a fillup of e85 and go to town or what? Also I have ecmlink V2 if that matters

1990TSIAWDTALON · Mar 20, 2017

V3 is easier to tune with because it gives you "suggestions" for your a/f's but its all just math. I made a leap of faith in ME and went and filled up with E and changed my stoich then fiddled with my global and deadtime to get home, then I asked for help and decided to tune my own car, hell I built it, might as well tune it too. You can get lots of help here or on ECMLink's forum, tho they are a bit more particular :thumb:

When you see the performance gains with E, I doubt you will go back to dino fuel.

twicks69 · Mar 21, 2017

If you are on an 8.5:1 stock bottom end with 25-30psi boost on 93-octane, I would be damn sure you are on a safe timing curve and have the AFR's in the upper 10's; or you will have a patio door treatment to deal with. As well, be sure you are on NGK BR8ES plugs, 0.028" gap or smaller if necessary; these are the non-projected tip and will help with preventing detonation.

You will run out of pump before out of injector. Worst case, add in a Walbro 255HP in-line fuel pump on the -6AN feed from the in-tank pump. -6AN feed from in-tank pickup assembly with adapter fitting (or -6AN fitting threaded on with a SECO-7 aluminum sealing washer), and full -6AN feed to in-line fuel filter with straight inlet/outlet fittings, NO BANJO BOLTS, and -6AN to fuel rail. -6AN fuel rail return to AFPR, and sleeve a -6AN return line over the factory return hard line will work.

At your current boost levels you can run E85, just start with a global increase in fuel to around 25%-29% and run for low 11's target AFR's. Then work in the timing if necessary, and read your plugs.

Dave2g · Mar 23, 2017

twicks69 said:
If you are on an 8.5:1 stock bottom end with 25-30psi boost on 93-octane, I would be damn sure you are on a safe timing curve and have the AFR's in the upper 10's; or you will have a patio door treatment to deal with. As well, be sure you are on NGK BR8ES plugs, 0.028" gap or smaller if necessary; these are the non-projected tip and will help with preventing detonation.

You will run out of pump before out of injector. Worst case, add in a Walbro 255HP in-line fuel pump on the -6AN feed from the in-tank pump. -6AN feed from in-tank pickup assembly with adapter fitting (or -6AN fitting threaded on with a SECO-7 aluminum sealing washer), and full -6AN feed to in-line fuel filter with straight inlet/outlet fittings, NO BANJO BOLTS, and -6AN to fuel rail. -6AN fuel rail return to AFPR, and sleeve a -6AN return line over the factory return hard line will work.

At your current boost levels you can run E85, just start with a global increase in fuel to around 25%-29% and run for low 11's target AFR's. Then work in the timing if necessary, and read your plugs.

A wealth of information there, thank you. So my plan this weekend is to load up my dsm link and log my open and closed loops. Get an idea of where the tune stands and if any adjustments need to be made to timing and fuel. Once it's all looking pretty I'll calculate what my global fuel setting should be with the injector calculator or use the values you so generously provided. I'm going to start on a 50/50 mix tank just to provide some room for cushion and ease myself into the e85 so my global number may be a bit different. If I find that the pump isn't able to keep up I'll wait for a while until I decide to upgrade the turbo and then maybe throw in 1600s and the in line pump with bigger lines.

1990TSIAWDTALON said:
V3 is easier to tune with because it gives you "suggestions" for your a/f's but its all just math. I made a leap of faith in ME and went and filled up with E and changed my stoich then fiddled with my global and deadtime to get home, then I asked for help and decided to tune my own car, hell I built it, might as well tune it too. You can get lots of help here or on ECMLink's forum, tho they are a bit more particular
When you see the performance gains with E, I doubt you will go back to dino fuel.

I love the dino fuel hahahahaha. Looking forward to seeing the results. I'll definetly look on the ecmlink forum and do more reading, but I'll be doing the same thing and fiddling with my global and timing. Luckily the station is only 20 mins away so if things go south I'm not in too much trouble

Thanks for all the help guys. Love the support on this forum.

twicks69 · Mar 23, 2017

Get any newer high impedance fuel injector like ID1700's or ID2000's. Don't waste your time on crap 1600's that have horrible low duty cycle consistency and have a nasty efficiency drop at their high duty cycle range. You will be fighting tuning, when the newer injectors are crazy easy to tune.

These numbers are simply based off my experiences with these fuels. They are not a bench mark, they are a useful starting point.
For pump gas 93 on your setup, start around the 10.7 AFR target since 2g 7-bolts typically like a little richer AFR's.
Straight E85 will be around a 25-29% global increase in comparison to 93 octane. Shoot for low 11's for AFR's.
As for 50/50% pump gas 93 and E85, start around 20% global increase in comparison to 93 octane. Shoot for low 11's for AFR's.
On C16/E85 50/50% I see about 16% global increase in comparison to 93-octane. Shoot for upper 11's for AFR's. I run as high as 12.2 AFR's typically with it, but I am on a lower compression engine around 7:1. The stock 2G 8.5:1 likes those 11's for AFR's.

Personally with your ECU I would upgrade it from V2 to V3, go speed density and install a flexfuel sensor and tune it that way. Way easier.

Dave2g · Mar 26, 2017

twicks69 said:
Get any newer high impedance fuel injector like ID1700's or ID2000's. Don't waste your time on crap 1600's that have horrible low duty cycle consistency and have a nasty efficiency drop at their high duty cycle range. You will be fighting tuning, when the newer injectors are crazy easy to tune.

These numbers are simply based off my experiences with these fuels. They are not a bench mark, they are a useful starting point.
For pump gas 93 on your setup, start around the 10.7 AFR target since 2g 7-bolts typically like a little richer AFR's.
Straight E85 will be around a 25-29% global increase in comparison to 93 octane. Shoot for low 11's for AFR's.
As for 50/50% pump gas 93 and E85, start around 20% global increase in comparison to 93 octane. Shoot for low 11's for AFR's.
On C16/E85 50/50% I see about 16% global increase in comparison to 93-octane. Shoot for upper 11's for AFR's. I run as high as 12.2 AFR's typically with it, but I am on a lower compression engine around 7:1. The stock 2G 8.5:1 likes those 11's for AFR's.

Personally with your ECU I would upgrade it from V2 to V3, go speed density and install a flexfuel sensor and tune it that way. Way easier.

It sounds like I should probably wait until I can go ahead and buy V3 as well as bigger injectors and pump.
I need to fix the fuel gauge as well, it seems like the previous owner bent the fuel float for the sender when putting the 255 in. It'll read 1/4 tank at full and then just drop down.
My turbo seals went yesterday and left the car pouring oil and unimaginable amounts of smoke. Checked the turbo and it had a bunch of shaft play.
To hold myself over until I can splurge on my e85 parts, I've ordered a CX Racing GT3582. Now I know that ebay turbos and generally any ebay moving part is frowned upon, however I will say I had an ebay CX turbo on my mk3 and it helped up just fine. I will be starting a thread on it just to inform other members of my experience and if they are worth purchasing for a temporary and cheap-fix of a turbo. Who knows, maybe it will be capable of more! But being significantly larger than the 50 trim, I will definetly have to retune the car to run with the new turbo.

twicks69 · Mar 27, 2017

I won't discuss the turbo selection, it's your money.

As for the fuel level indication, with a 2g AWD the float has a specific orientation it needs to have the full swing in the tank, so it could be that the pickup assembly is not clocked correctly.

If you are going into the pump assembly, I'd update the pump with a 340-400lph in tank, run that out, and then add in an in-line 255LPH pump when it becomes necessary.

Also, with the inline fuel filter, make sure you use a stainless steel filter, not a cellulose filter that sometimes breaks down over time with usage of E85.

Kapok6 · Mar 27, 2017

twicks69 said:
I won't discuss the turbo selection, it's your money.

As for the fuel level indication, with a 2g AWD the float has a specific orientation it needs to have the full swing in the tank, so it could be that the pickup assembly is not clocked correctly.

If you are going into the pump assembly, I'd update the pump with a 340-400lph in tank, run that out, and then add in an in-line 255LPH pump when it becomes necessary.

Also, with the inline fuel filter, make sure you use a stainless steel filter, not a cellulose filter that sometimes breaks down over time with usage of E85.

What's inside of and OEM filter? I ran stock lines and stock OEM filter for years on E85 without a single fuel related issue.

twicks69 · Mar 27, 2017

They are a paper filter; it works, but just saying, I have seen cellulose elements degrade and clog up from E85 usage before.

Dave2g · Mar 27, 2017

De

twicks69 said:
I won't discuss the turbo selection, it's your money.

As for the fuel level indication, with a 2g AWD the float has a specific orientation it needs to have the full swing in the tank, so it could be that the pickup assembly is not clocked correctly.

If you are going into the pump assembly, I'd update the pump with a 340-400lph in tank, run that out, and then add in an in-line 255LPH pump when it becomes necessary.

Also, with the inline fuel filter, make sure you use a stainless steel filter, not a cellulose filter that sometimes breaks down over time with usage of E85.

You make a good point. I took your advice and grabbed a walboro 450. Might as well upgrade while I'm there and I'll be re-compensating for the turbo in my tune anyways. What's a little bit more work!
Is there anything in particular I should be looking for in terms of the float's orientation when I pull out the pickup assembly? In other words, would it be obvious to tell how it is supposed to go in the right way?

twicks69 · Mar 27, 2017

You will have to feel it out; I used a multimeter and a jumper wire with alligator mini clips on a full tank of gas and watched the range of motion on the gas gauge by testing the pickup assembly harness plugs following the factory service manual.

Then once I found the proper range and good fitment without getting caught up on anything, I marked the outside of the pickup assembly for orientation and the associated flange and I then had the known orientation marked for future dicking around.

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