2G Let's build a Front UCA

99gst_racer · Oct 19, 2016

mountain_man said:
1.) What is the min. amount (inches) the inner pick-up points need to raised in order to for new control arms to be effective?

There is not a universal perfect amount for everyone here. Ideally, you'd want to plot your arm angles at your given ride height and figure out how much inboard pick-up raise would be an improvement for your roll centers and instant center. But I believe there's only room for about 1/2" raise (which is pretty much all there is room for on LCA's too), which is better than nothing at all.

mountain_man said:
-It would be a real shame to put all this work in only to determine after the fact, that the major benefit is steering feel due of the switch to heims and not see significant increase in corner speeds.

One of the primary benefits on these arms would be to adjust camber and caster. As it stands, some of the other options on the market have issues with the design. The Megans and SPC's have an adjustable balljoint and there have been reports that it doesn't stay put under heavy loads. This is why I wanted to adjust balljoint location by directing it with inboard adjustments.

mountain_man said:
2.) What off the shelf components are available (A&A Manufacturing, Speedwaymotors, etc...) that would make this easier to manufacture and service?

I wouldn't be able to answer this until I start or finish the first set. A lot of this will depend on which balljoint I end up using. Either way, any wear components will be readily available.

mountain_man said:
3.) Should we consider abandoning the factory inboard mounting location in favor of a bolted/welded in bracket, so that a more traditional upper A arm style can be used?
-This is bit of a stretch but when brainstorming there are no bad ideas, right?

I appreciate the brainstorming. I don't think there's anything to gain by such a modification. I'd be willing to bet most guys wouldn't be interested in permanently modifying their car, as apposed to using a bolt-on affair that functions the same way.

mountain_man said:
4.) What are the suspension settings this kit will help users achieve?
-I think this is one of the most important points to establish as

* Camber adjustability
* Caster adjustability
* A replaceable balljoint
* Sphericals instead of bushings, so no more bushing deflection.
* And I'm unsure of any weight savings at this point.

99gst_racer · Oct 19, 2016

Black95TSIawd said:
Sorry to hear. Feel better, dude.

Thanks man. Right now, I feel like Joe Pesci at the end of Casino. Every inch of my body feels like I was on the losing end of a baseball bat. And my pride hurts even more yet...

Black95TSIawd · Oct 19, 2016

99gst_racer said:
Thanks man. Right now, I feel like Joe Pesci at the end of Casino. Every inch of my body feels like I was on the losing end of a baseball bat. And my pride hurts even more yet...

Cheer up! You're still with us and that's all that matters.

Atuca · Oct 19, 2016

mountain_man said:
Paul, thanks again for taking the initiative and developing something new!

3.) Should we consider abandoning the factory inboard mounting location in favor of a bolted/welded in bracket, so that a more traditional upper A arm style can be used?
-This is bit of a stretch but when brainstorming there are no bad ideas, right?

It should also be noted 90% of people who are buying these for the track have rules to follow (unless unlimited), and modifying suspension mounting points is a pretty big no in most classes.

Black95TSIawd · Oct 19, 2016

Atuca said:
It should also be noted 90% of people who are buying these for the track have rules to follow (unless unlimited), and modifying suspension mounting points is a pretty big no in most classes.

Zing! Why didn't I think of this. Changing the pickup point will automatically bump you into XP in SCCA classing. I don't think i've ever seen a DSM compete that high up the order.

ileagleracing · Oct 19, 2016

Atuca said:
It should also be noted 90% of people who are buying these for the track have rules to follow (unless unlimited), and modifying suspension mounting points is a pretty big no in most classes.

From an autocross perspective, there has been some discussion within the Street Modified class on this, and the consensus is that with regards to the Front UCA: the geometry which must remain unchanged is the pivot axis of the arm, not the holes in the frame.

calgst95 · Oct 19, 2016

Black95TSIawd said:
Cheer up! You're still with us and that's all that matters.

What he said!!.. My mom would always rub some Vicks Vapor rub on injuries with no results... give it a try.. but all jokes aside.. I'm glad it was just some bumps and bruises and not something more severe.. will keep you in prayer for a speedy recovery... Do you still need those pictures? And put me down on the list for a set, when time comes!!

Black95TSIawd · Oct 19, 2016

ileagleracing said:
From an autocross perspective, there has been some discussion within the Street Modified class on this, and the consensus is that with regards to the Front UCA: the geometry which must remain unchanged is the pivot axis of the arm, not the holes in the frame.

Interesting.

Dsmkauai · Oct 19, 2016

Also be praying for your recovery bro. That you heal up fast and have nothing bothering you later on. We all appreciate your hard work so much! And can't wait to see a finished product on these!

T2Small · Oct 24, 2016

ileagleracing said:
From an autocross perspective, there has been some discussion within the Street Modified class on this, and the consensus is that with regards to the Front UCA: the geometry which must remain unchanged is the pivot axis of the arm, not the holes in the frame.

Some were talking about bolting brackets to factory locations and effectively having the pivot points somewhere else, but it turns out that won't fly.

mountain_man · Oct 24, 2016

T2Small said:
Some were talking about bolting brackets to factory locations and effectively having the pivot points somewhere else, but it turns out that won't fly.

Is that the regional person saying it won't fly or has the a national rep. from SCCA answered that?

mountain_man · Oct 24, 2016

99gst_racer said:
There is not a universal perfect amount for everyone here. Ideally, you'd want to plot your arm angles at your given ride height and figure out how much inboard pick-up raise would be an improvement for your roll centers and instant center. But I believe there's only room for about 1/2" raise (which is pretty much all there is room for on LCA's too), which is better than nothing at all.

One of the primary benefits on these arms would be to adjust camber and caster. As it stands, some of the other options on the market have issues with the design. The Megans and SPC's have an adjustable balljoint and there have been reports that it doesn't stay put under heavy loads. This is why I wanted to adjust balljoint location by directing it with inboard adjustments.

I wouldn't be able to answer this until I start or finish the first set. A lot of this will depend on which balljoint I end up using. Either way, any wear components will be readily available.

I appreciate the brainstorming. I don't think there's anything to gain by such a modification. I'd be willing to bet most guys wouldn't be interested in permanently modifying their car, as apposed to using a bolt-on affair that functions the same way.

* Camber adjustability
* Caster adjustability
* A replaceable balljoint
* Sphericals instead of bushings, so no more bushing deflection.
* And I'm unsure of any weight savings at this point.

Thanks for answering my questions! I'll be following this discussion with abated breath

Redline165 · Nov 14, 2016

Still need the pictures? I have nothing but the uppers installed front and rear at the moment. Let me know what measurements you need as well.

Hope you get well soon!

99gst_racer · Nov 14, 2016

Redline165 said:
Still need the pictures? I have nothing but the uppers installed front and rear at the moment. Let me know what measurements you need as well.

Hope you get well soon!

Sure. Pictures would help right now. In really just need to see the clearances around the balljoint with a stock arm tucked all the way up. But I've come to the realization that I will need to get a 2G to my shop to mock things up just as soon as I get the first arm tacked up tacked.

Redline165 · Nov 15, 2016

Will do. I'm on the road for work until Friday but I'll get you a pic as soon as I get home.

Redline165 · Nov 29, 2016

Sorry, took the pics and forgot to send them to you. they are kind of fuzzy, the shop lights were messing with the camera on my phone. I'm not sure if this is what you were after but hopefully it will help some. Clearance in the ball joint on the factor arm appears to be pretty good. With the upper control arm sitting level (90 degrees off the attachment points) you probably have a good 3-4 inches of travel or about 15-20 degrees going up. Keep in mind this is with nothing on the arm, just free movement.

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Black95TSIawd · Nov 29, 2016

Super clean. I likey.

T2Small · Nov 29, 2016

I posted a link to pictures of my shortened arms on the previous page as well.

calgst95 · Jan 13, 2017

Any update on your health @99gst_racer and on these UCAs?

99gst_racer · Jan 13, 2017

Nothing yet. I'll try to find time soon to make a prototype arm.

At this point I'm still not sure which balljoint I want to use. Any suggestions?

calgst95 · Jan 13, 2017

Could you use one like the one on your trailing arms?

99gst_racer · Feb 1, 2017

Hey guys, I figured I'd pop in with a small update.

I've decided to build this around the Moog 2G replacement balljoint. They're well-built, easy to find, reasonably priced, and uniquely small enough to fit the application.

I've got all of the components drawn in CAD. I'm awaiting a quote from my CNC laser guy. But I could have a prototype arm ready to be used in as little as 3-4 weeks.

ileagleracing · Feb 1, 2017

99gst_racer said:
But I could have a prototype arm ready to be used in as little as 3-4 weeks.

I am willing to test

dsmcrzy · Feb 1, 2017

Do you have any cad pics?

greengoblin · Feb 1, 2017

Cool. Looking forward to seeing this move forward.

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