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E85 goo - this time with an attitude

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Don't believe it is related. The Goo/gum on the injector tips in it's pure form is color less. YOu wouldn't be able to see it. The black tar color see in it after it's formed on the intake/injector is just combustion particles that have stuck to it. (again... or so says the article)
 
Very interesting, Kapok. Im curious though, on your old setup with the aftermarket lines were you using seafoam? That may be the variable
 
I dont' know if its the same stuff, but the black crud in my filters sure looked similar to the black crud on the injectors and in the intake port.

When testing the alcohol % this snotty white stuff would always separate out at the top of the tube. I wonder if this is the stuff causing the issues. I put a few drops of Lucas ethanol treatment in the tube and it seemed to help the snotty stuff dissolve into the mixture.
 
Again, not sure if this was the same stuff or not, but stock lines/filter/seafoam helped my e85 fueling problem.

Just to add some insight to this, I've been on e85 for the last 3 years daily driven. I've NEVER experienced any goo whatsoever. I'm running 6an nylon braided feed, russell SS filter, stock rail, fuel lab afpr w/braided lines and stock return. So I'm pretty sure it's not the lines...
 
Just wanted to add to this. Have not been around a very long time. Been doing my 3rd gen 4runner build and got away from the street scene.

Anyways my brother has been running e85 for over 10-12 years. He has had the goo issue but never that bad. Just a little gas to clean it up here and there. The other day he found gallons of e85 under his car. He has had SS fuel lines and fitting for a good 8+ years. The e85 ate through all the fuel fitting crimps and ate through the rubber in the SS line. When we removed the fuel line all the rubber insides just pored out the line. All this was getting caught by his fuel filter.

To fix the issue he has gone with 100% nascar rated line. Its got alcohol rated fuel lines, and fittings. Hopefully this dont happen again. Maybe the goo is coming from the fuel line rubber like has been stated before. Just a heads up. Took over 10 years to cause an issue.
 
I've been running e85 for about 6 months but I've only been through about 5 tanks or so. Haven't noticed any issues yet but my question is, would VP110 clean better than just normal pump gas which usually sill has ethanol in it? Thinking of running the race gas through every 6 months or so to help keep the goo at bay..
 
I've been using e85 for 5 years or so now without any issues related to this "goo". I think it's related to the gas stations that people are using, no problems so far here in Texas and my car is daily driven.
 
I've been running e85 for about 6 months but I've only been through about 5 tanks or so. Haven't noticed any issues yet but my question is, would VP110 clean better than just normal pump gas which usually sill has ethanol in it? Thinking of running the race gas through every 6 months or so to help keep the goo at bay..

I've been adding this product when I run ethanol and haven't had issues. I run a tank or two of 91 (ethanol free) through over the winter so the car doesn't sit with E85 in it.
https://www.amazon.com/Lucas-Oil-10576-Safeguard-Conditioner/dp/B004FW77F0

I don't think you would need to run race gas through. If you can find someone around that sells ethanol free gas, I'd try that. It'd be a lot cheaper to do.

I've been using e85 for 5 years or so now without any issues related to this "goo". I think it's related to the gas stations that people are using, no problems so far here in Texas and my car is daily driven.

I'm wondering if it's also because your car is daily driven. I don't feel like going back and looking to see the driving patterns of who all has posted in here, but I seem to remember this being more of an issue with those who let their car sit for periods of time longer than a day.
 
I've been adding this product when I run ethanol and haven't had issues. I run a tank or two of 91 (ethanol free) through over the winter so the car doesn't sit with E85 in it.
https://www.amazon.com/Lucas-Oil-10576-Safeguard-Conditioner/dp/B004FW77F0

I don't think you would need to run race gas through. If you can find someone around that sells ethanol free gas, I'd try that. It'd be a lot cheaper to do.



I'm wondering if it's also because your car is daily driven. I don't feel like going back and looking to see the driving patterns of who all has posted in here, but I seem to remember this being more of an issue with those who let their car sit for periods of time longer than a day.

Ahh I do use the Lucas additive already but wasn't sure if it was enough, seems it is, Thanks!
 
bringing this one back if I can. I recently pulled my ID1700's after two summers of pump e85. heavy black goo build up on them. cleaned them off by running throttle body cleaner through them followed by WD40. I am running a walbro 450 pump, braided lines and a stainless steel filter from full blown motorsports, along with a magnus rail and aeromotive regulator.
I wanted some answers so I BROUGHT MY QUESTIONS TO INJECTOR DYNAMICS AND FULL BLOWN. I got two different answers. 1) its the lines or the tank lining breaking down. and 2) its the carbon being cleaned off the piston crown by the e85 and accumulating on the nozzle. I found this thread and did some more digging. I work at an independent auto repair shop that also sells fuel and he is very supportive of ethanol. My boss prides himself on the fuel we sell and when I brought this to his attention he sent a text to one of his sources in the fuel production industry.
The one who responded was Kristy Moore, A FUEL EXPERT AT A COMPANY NAMED Growth Energy. She is very interested in this situation and wants to know as much as possible and wants access to this thread. They have labs and funding to research this situation. They work with the petroleum producers who are making the e85 and making the big push for ethanol.
so if anyone is still interested maybe save some of this goo for chemical analysis. Its too late for me, I cleaned my injectors already. but if anyone has some dirty ones they could send in or scape the goo off and send let me know.
 
The black could be from the top layer of the black foam float in the tank being attacked, but it seems to be gas station dependent from what I am experiencing, last year I had the goo at the end of the season, this year I have zero goo after pulling the injectors and this year I have been using a brand new station that installed brand new dedicated E85 pumps and tanks, whereas the other station was old and I'm sure just used an old gasoline tank to fill with E85 plus they are different brands of gas stations, Marathon station had the goo and Speedway didnt cause any. Maybe we should start a poll about where the fuel was bought during the season when the goo has been found and how old the station was vs newer stations vs goo issues.
 
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Another thing that I am starting to believe in my own theory is that the black part of the goo is the aluminum oxide from the aluminum tanker trucks that bring the E85 to the stations or even if its stored at any time in aluminum at the refinery, alcohol attacks aluminum and its a cleaner of sorts too so if there is any aluminum oxide hiding in an old tanker truck it might be getting stripped from the inside of the tank and end up in the fuel that gets delivered to the stations, the goo itself is likely fuel additive packages from leftover gasoline where the tanker truck gets low enough for sections of the tank to get dry and the additives to collect on the inside of the tank and again, the alcohol strips the tanks clean and removes the leftover additives from the inside of the tank along with the aluminum oxides.

So Im wondering if the newer tanker trailers are lined nowadays due to the overall Ethanol content in all fuels and thats why we are seeing less of a problem in newer gas stations that seem to have much newer shiny tanker trucks delivering the fuel?
 
Well I can say that I fill 95-percent of the time at one station which is the one I work at that also houses an independent repair shop. We had new tanks installed a few years ago for everything. We have a dedicated e85 tank that has had nothing but e85 in it since day one. My boss lives and breathes fuel. he is major supporter of ethanol and fuel options in general so our pump filters and fuel suppliers stay clean and reputable. we sell e85, e30, e15, regular 87 octane (e10), regular 93 octane (e10), Non-oxygenated 91 octane (no ethanol), multiple diesels, and we can fill propane powered vehicles. My boss even adds his own diesel additive package to the diesel tanks that he gets from Schaffer's who produces very good oil. He does that at no extra charge to the consumer. I can also say I can smell the difference between our e85 and other stations. when I lived with my dad he could also tell too when I pulled into the garage. The e85 at my place will burn your nose and make your eyes water LOL.
The lining of the tanker truck is an interesting idea.
I spoke more with the consultant from Growth Energy and she had mentioned something similar about the gasoline additives. That they have had some experience with gasoline additives that are not ethanol soluble. She is at an ASTM committee this week and should get back to me on Wednesday. I provided her with much information about my fuel source, driving habits, fuel system setup. She wants to know how many people are being affected by this issue. I wasn't really sure of a number to give her haha.
 
If you've ever messed around with model trucks or planes with a nitro engine and ever tried to clean up the engine after its frozen up because of letting it sit and the oil and crap in the fuel sat there and evaporated then you know how hard it is to get that goo off also, its not soluble in gasoline or most other substances, its very similar to the E85 goo that can only be stripped off with alcohol of some type.
 
UPDATE- ISSUE RESOLVED: had major idle issues and stumble on throttle tip in which led me to pulling my injectors and finding major build up last season.. I cleaned them at home prior to storage with BG products throttle body cleaner and lubed them with WD40. just started my my car for this season and the issue was slightly better. But after discussing for sometime with a rep for Growth energy which is the company that employs the chemists and reps behind mixing the e85 in the Midwest, we came to the conclusion that the build-up is an a non-ethanol soluble additive that is often washed away by gasoline in flex fuel vehicles.
since my car is strictly e85, I never get that cleaning from the gasoline. She recommended techron by Chevron which has the additive needed to clean this build-up. I can also say it is the only product I've seen recommended in Honda dealer service info for certain drivability issues.
I added a whole bottle of techron to 7 gallons of fresh e85, ran it in my eclipse and after about 30 mins I no longer have idle surge, don't have stalling when pushing in the clutch coming to a stop, and I no longer have a stumble at throttle tip-in. My DSM drives like it did the day it came off the dyno. don't know if your results will be the same, but I spent a lot of time checking Idle speed controllers, checking timing, looking at my tune, viewing datalogs. and all it took in the end was a $13 bottle of techron and 30 mins. Hope this helps someone.
 
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