Arizona silently passed a bill officially removing E85 from every pump in the state, reducing the blend to E54. I contemplated posting this in the Arizona regional forum but since other states might be following suite I thought I'd post it out here so everyone can read it.

Heads up, more states may be going this direction since it prevents them from having a summer and winter blend keeping it a consistent E54.

Hmmm figured something like this may happen, time start thinking about a back-up plan.

That blows. Although, E54 is still a better alternative than premium grade pump gas.

Everybody should read this before they get worried.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...cf2cd2e028b3b56.pdf?origin=publication_detail

How much adware am I going to have to clean off my computer after downloading the PDF?

WHAT THE f***!!!! WHY? can we call bullshit and have them take that to a vote? that's stupid they can just pass something like that in a session with no public opinion. what the hell happened to this country dont even get me started on obama care.....

UrbanSmoker said:

WHAT THE f***!!!! WHY?

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They don't want to deal with changing blends, and the differences in vapor pressure. It's about evaporative emissions.

But, studies show knock resistance doesn't increase much with ethanol blends much over 50% anyway. If anything having a consistent blend year round station to station will be a benefit.

I've seen my car be shitty about e50, but it might have been because it was super rich. Don't know for sure. I think for the most part it won't matter unless your really on the edge.

well people use e98 over e85 right... so there must be a benefit.

i guess if it doesnt end up making a difference... it better be cheaper.. and if it does make a difference its too late to do anything about it.

The e98 is a consistency issue over e85.

Did anyone read the study I posted?

There are benefits to higher concentrations of ethanol. It's just that the difference between raw gasoline, and e54 is about 20x larger than the difference between e54 and e85.

i didnt read the pdf but i looked at the chart you posted, i dont think octane has ever been the real benefit of Ethanol, it was the cooling effects, im curious if the COOLING effects are reduced by the ethanol %.

i guess knock resistance is a combo of things.

I agree with Donnie, the octane difference between E85 and E54 should minimal so besides a global fuel change shouldn't effect the WOT tune much.

The local DSM FB page everyone's freaking out saying it's time to go back to 91 and run a MWI setup, which IMO is completely unnecessary. A bit different then what Donnie posted but when I originally switched to E85 I thought I remember the blends looking something like E85 - 109oct / E70 - 106oct / E50 - 103oct. Either way, it's good to see that the knock index in that chart is damn near identical between E85 and E50.

Initially this was a kick in the balls when I read it, just one more obstacle to climb to get down the track faster. But, it could be worse, they could have said "f.ck it, no more ethanol in the state!" and then pulled all of the E85 pumps we've got, which are already few and far between in my side of the Valley. Then we would be f.cked.

We'll be okay, just wanted to get the word out so DSMer's aren't wondering why their tunes are jacked locally and other DSMer's around the country that this maybe where the E85 world's headed.

Damn, Nice find Donnie!

I also thought the knock index would significantly greater with e85. Now I'm curious as to what E98 and E100's knock index is...

I'm surprised more of you aren't running ethanol sensors on your cars.

bonecollector said:

Damn, Nice find Donnie!

I also thought the knock index would significantly greater with e85. Now I'm curious as to what E98 and E100's knock index is...

I'm surprised more of you aren't running ethanol sensors on your cars.

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i didnt use one cause i thought it was a restriction in the return, i guess you can do a bypass with the sensor though.

No wonder my car was running pig rich. I was scratching my head for a few days and messing with the global fuel adjustment thinking I probably got a bad batch or something. How did you guys come across this?

UrbanSmoker said:

i didnt use one cause i thought it was a restriction in the return, i guess you can do a bypass with the sensor though.

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The Russell AN to Hard Tube Push-on EFI Fitting that connects to the ethanol sensor is a -6AN. -6AN converted to a fraction is 3/8", 3/8" is the measurement of the sensors inlet and outlet. so unless you have a 1000hp set up with larger than -6AN return line you'll prob be ok.

Anyone know how to calculate global fuel for this e54?

boostdawd said:

Anyone know how to calculate global fuel for this e54?

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https://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/e85fuel

scroll down to "running custom mixes"

bonecollector said:

The Russell AN to Hard Tube Push-on EFI Fitting that connects to the ethanol sensor is a -6AN. -6AN converted to a fraction is 3/8", 3/8" is the measurement of the sensors inlet and outlet. so unless you have a 1000hp set up with larger than -6AN return line you'll prob be ok.

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I have -8 return and feed

I didn't read the PDF thoroughly but would you have to change an E85 tune for E54?

I live in TX, we have E85 pumps everywhere however, I've experienced variances in AFR ratios since moving here and trying out new stations. I've also had my knock gauge throw a fit sporadically last year just normally driving. Not sure if this was due to weird blends or not tho.

donniekak said:

The e98 is a consistency issue over e85.

Did anyone read the study I posted?

There are benefits to higher concentrations of ethanol. It's just that the difference between raw gasoline, and e54 is about 20x larger than the difference between e54 and e85.

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Donnie,

I've read that paper a couple years ago, it was printed in the sae journals. One issue I have that most of the papers of this type, do not approach the operating conditions that we do. They are usually half the bmep, and low RPM, no where near the exhaust pressure, often not a similar combustion chamber type. At lower loads than us, these guys found that E50 isn't much different than E85. But you start getting up where some of us are running, and it shows up. I do agree that even E50 is rocket fuel compared to 93oct.

The other thing that sucks is that we have no control over what the blending stream is. The could be even worse blending streams than what they use in the paper.

I'm 90% sure i've seen knock show up from E50. I was in the 650whp range at 40psi.

bonecollector said:

Damn, Nice find Donnie!

I also thought the knock index would significantly greater with e85. Now I'm curious as to what E98 and E100's knock index is...

I'm surprised more of you aren't running ethanol sensors on your cars.

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it's aki is like 112 or 115. Maybe 117, but that might be methanol. The AKI isn't really relavent to boosted engines and alcohol fuels as smoker said. The cooling from it probably helps as much as the aki.

boostdawd said:

Anyone know how to calculate global fuel for this e54?

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For a tank of E54 you calculate injector size like this...

.54 x 9.0078 + .46 x 14.64 = 11.599 (which is stoich on E54)

Then you need to figure the gas ratio, on E85 stoich is 9.8526 and on gas it's 14.64 so the gas ratio of E85 is 9.8526/14.64=0.673. That's why, in the past, you multiplied injector size by 0.67 to get your effective injector size on E85...

11.59 / 14.64 = 0.792

So taking your setup for example, running 1000cc injectors...

1000 x 0.792 = 792cc (assuming you've got your BFP set to 43.5psi)

450 / 792 - 1 = -43% (1000cc injectors on E54)

oneslowwdsm said:

I didn't read the PDF thoroughly but would you have to change an E85 tune for E54?

I live in TX, we have E85 pumps everywhere however, I've experienced variances in AFR ratios since moving here and trying out new stations. I've also had my knock gauge throw a fit sporadically last year just normally driving. Not sure if this was due to weird blends or not tho.

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Blends change throughout the seasons, if you look at the E85 pump you'll notice there's a sticker on it that says "MINIMUM 70% ETHANOL".

The difference between your 1150cc injector globals running E85 and E70 is fairly significant, which is why you should at least get a E85 tester or spend the extra cash on ECMLink's flex fuel setup. Just to give you an idea...
So if I'm mathing right, the difference between E70 and E85 is about 8% of your injector size.

If they dont want two blends and it's minimum e70 already... Keep it frickin e70 not 50

God damnit that blows. What happened to this country? Between shit like this, and cops not being to shot shooting innocent people with headphones on, or deaf people etc, and then the FDA trying to tell me batteries are tobacco. An 18650 cell is not tobacco, I don't give a f*** what you say, and neither is organic cotton for that matter.