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Why were not seeing EFR's on DSM's?

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dwdsm

15+ Year Contributor
564
27
Apr 28, 2005
Scenery Hill, Pennsylvania
Also a question I've wanted to ask someone knowledgeable with compressor maps... I'm a little surprised to see that no one has bolted on an EFR turbo yet. To me the 6758 looks like a turbo that would have more response then a say 68hta but be capable to have a fat torque curve and outflow it noticeably up top.. Is the EFR all hype? I really want to down size from my old 50trim and was thinking 68hta but that EFR numbers wise looks so good! I've measured and other then a little trickiness with the DP fitment it shouldn't be much of a problem. I really think with the smaller framed turbos near stock placement would work with any DSM V band fitted manifold. Thanks for your time!
 
I dunno, what are those turbos making? I did a quick google search and it seems like ~500 hp for that model. But you could make that with holset for half the price.

So I say price. Might be a real nice turbo. But it seems like the cost might be more condusive to Evo owners.
 
The 6758 is only rated to flow a max of 53lbs per min... So it's way different purpose then a holset. That's why I'm comparing it to the 68hta because if it really could out spool a 68 hta and out flow it up top that seems like it would be a mid 11 sec car that you could take to an autocross if you wanted. Hell of a lot of fun on the street too. The big payoff with these turbos is the low mass of the rotating assembly. So it's not really what they make but for how long they make it. So if I'm looking for a wide powerband over peak power these seem to be far superior to anything else on the market. Seem being the key word there. I'm almost ready to be the test dummy but that's an expensive test.... I found one new for $1,100 that's another reason I was tempted..
 
Those are nice units, but I doubt you'll see many DSM guys shelling out that kind of cash for one.

DSM owners = cheap.

DSMers do shit like buy 4 Ebay 16G turbos @ $175 a piece before they even consider buying a used $400 MHI unit. They will quit and sell the car before ever spending $1,100 on anything...Maintenance included.

I paid $1,100 for my turbo said no DSM owner ever ;)
 
I'd say that price is the big reason. I've had some intimate experience with these turbos, and there's some really cool tech in them (and even more that's soon to come), but that tech costs money.
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-7163-turbo.html

SEMA should have an interesting display this year. Since I can't find a press release on the tech, I'll refrain from saying anymore.
 
OK well lets say I was willing to spend the money on installing one. Compressor map vs compressorr map... how would this compare to a 68hta?
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-6758-turbo.html
Well I guess there is no compressor map for the 68HTA so we could use a 20G compressor map for some comparison...
http://www.lovehorsepower.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=88

The compressor map only tells you a tiny sliver of the performance characteristics of a turbo. Even less people really know what to do with the information presented there.

You choose the efr because it is more efficient as an overall package, (ie turbine efficiency). DSms don't run these because few cars are set up well enough to realize the performance gains. You bang/buck ratio would be terrible.
 
Well I guess there is no compressor map for the 68HTA so we could use a 20G compressor map for some comparison...

The compressor map for a 20G wouldn't be a accurate representation of how the 68HTA(s) performs, especially not the V2 model.

I don't even really think you need a compressor map of the 68 to get a good idea of which turbo would be superior. There's quite a bit of good technical data available on BorgWarner’s website regarding the EFR series turbos. In comparison to the 68HTA, I'd assume the EFR would be superior in flow and spool so long as the turbo was properly matched to the application. Based on the compressor map, the 67mm EFR turbo would probably be closest to netting you the kind of airflow the 68HTA V2 is capable of, you'd just need to decide which turbine housing was best suited to your build to optimize performance. No doubt, the aero and wheel tech in these turbos is far better than almost anything FP is currently making. Not to mention, this is a ball bearing turbo (to be exact, dual row, ceramic ball bearings according to BW's tech sheet) and should have superior spool characteristics.

Where the BW is not superior is the price point, availability, and ease of use...All of which are primary concerns to the majority of the DSM community. Hence, the primary reason you probably don't see anybody running these on a DSM. If you decided to run one of the twin scroll versions, you'd probably be looking at ~3-5k or better for a proper turbo setup...And that's if you can find an off-the-shelf manifold and don't have to get one custom made.
 
Those are nice units, but I doubt you'll see many DSM guys shelling out that kind of cash for one.

DSM owners = cheap.

DSMers do sh** like buy 4 Ebay 16G turbos @ $175 a piece before they even consider buying a used $400 MHI unit. They will quit and sell the car before ever spending $1,100 on anything...Maintenance included.

I paid $1,100 for my turbo said no DSM owner ever ;)

You are exactly right. Mostly everyone I know that owns or owned a DSM does not want to spend the money to do things right.

I like to do things right, and I like to do them well. I might not do perfect work, but I never intentionally cut corners either. I have honestly only ever met one other person who views DSMs this way and we got along great. He has a lot more money to spend on his car than I do right now.

I don't think many members in the DSM community can justify spending 1k-2.5k on a car to spend thousands on it. I see it the other way, I don't see spending 20,000+ on a car for it to not come the way I already want it but the build is part of the fun for me. I also have no intention of spending a ton on a car to ruin it's value by modifying it. To me it makes more sense to dump a bunch of money into a cheap car rather than an expensive one. I get why most people don't see it that way, but personally I don't. I would rather spend the 500 a month I would spend on a car payment and however much it would increase my insurance for a STi on parts for my DSM. Imagine how much I could have built my car in a year with a 6,000 a year budget. Over the course of 7 years (about how long you would need to pay of a STi that I would actually buy new) I could have literally built one of the most expensive DSMs to have ever been built, but I would still have a car that I'd be lucky to get 6 grand for. However, I don't care about the value of my DSM because I don't intend to ever sell it.

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure it's because of cost. Honestly, though... I will either be going HX35 or 68HTA for my build when I have the funds to do it. One is cheap one is kind of cheap, but not that cheap. I think the idea of taking a super cheap turbo and making decent power with it is a fun idea. But the huge power for it's size and it's insanely fast spool for it's power level makes my mouth water when thinking of the 68HTA.

Another issue is I don't want to have to heavily fabricate parts. Mostly because I don't have any welding skills at all and paying someone to do it for me makes it totally unrealistic. If we had more support for newer style turbos I'd probably run one. Plus if I was going to go into fabricating new parts, even if it was easy I'd go all out and take the compound turbo idea and see what I can do with it. Trial and error is one of the things that makes parts fabrication so satisfying. To take something that looked and perform like shit the first time and turning it into a refined legitimate upgrade is pretty awesome.
 
Thanks for the great responses!
I get it and I too have no problem spending money on my DSM. However my fear is the unknown with the EFR. The cost could add up quick and turn into a project that sits and waits and that's no fun. It may take some experimenting with complimentary components as well. The 68hta is on sale still as well which means I could by two for the price of one EFR. Then again....
 
It actually looks like a turbo that would work really well. I believe I seen one of these or maybe a similar turbo on a HHR SS. From what I got from the link and the description. Looking again I believe it was as it it looks just like it cause I actually had to repair the plastic nipple part. I remember because the blade setup reminded me of a 16g. It really was fast spooling and pulled well with the HHR stage 1 kit. If selecting the appropriate sizing for your application it would work really well IMO.
 
You are exactly right. Mostly everyone I know that owns or owned a DSM does not want to spend the money to do things right.
It is not just about not wanting to spend money.

You gotta realize once the cost of the platform dips very far below 10k, it puts these cars in the reach of very young adults, or even teenagers who have no experience, very very little knowledge, and they want that car built like right damn now.

I daily drive mine, so I can't afford to do anything half ass, it has to get me to work and back so I can pay for my home, and take care of my family.

That said, I don't have the time, or the budget to experiment. I'd rather go with a proven bang/buck route.

That turbo flows 50-53 lbs a min, holsets flow 55-60. For way way less. Yeah spool is slower, but still not bad for how much they air they move.

Now it does seem like it competes with the FP turbo, but that turbo is a lot cheaper too. And its from a specialist company, where you can get everything you need for an install from one vendor, and they would probably even help you with any issues during your install.
 
Because I'm too poor to build a motor and transmission that will take 7670 fury...
If I lived within 2000km of my Evo, I probably would've had mine installed by now. I just need to fab a downpipe, new intercooler pipe, new intake pipe, and some minor stuff to get it installed. Making 500hp, that's a different story.

EFRs are good at efficiency, not peak numbers. DSMers seem to want peak numbers at the lowest cost possible.
 
So why the need for custom fab work here? What makes these turbos any different to install then any other?
They don't bolt to a stock manifold and o2.

There are great stock footprint turbos for anything under 600ish horsepower. The reason there were never any 350hp t3 kits like every other 4 cylinder platform was the evo3 16g. For 400-600hp the fp30 housing series of turbos is hard to beat for spool and width of powerband unless you spend 2x the money.

Everybody isn't out to make 1,000hp and run 8's. I remember when the majority of the platform was super happy with 300-350hp.
 
They don't bolt to a stock manifold and o2.

There are great stock footprint turbos for anything under 600ish horsepower. The reason there were never any 350hp t3 kits like every other 4 cylinder platform was the evo3 16g. For 400-600hp the fp30 housing series of turbos is hard to beat for spool and width of powerband unless you spend 2x the money.

Everybody isn't out to make 1,000hp and run 8's. I remember when the majority of the platform was super happy with 300-350hp.
Okay so then it's the same as any t3 or non stock or large turbo LOL can't use factory mani and o2 LOL. With that said. It seems like a small EFR turbo is just plain a waste of money compared to the mitsu bolt on turbos available, if you were to change to t3 sounds like what you would have to go through regardless, except you would be usually doing it with a turbo of signifigant power increase for the investment

A small EFR turbo seems to be compareable to a greddy turbo, tons of money, for no reason and hardly any power upgrade

Ive only ever had mitsubishi, precision and FP turbos so just trying to figure out why someone would want a 1000+$ turbo for a sub 500whp maxed out setup

And am i correct that the term "EFR" is only related to BW's compressor aero? Otherwise similar to any oyher aftermarket turbo of comprable size? I just dont see what the hype is all about.

are we really talking about t3 or vband 16g size turbos??? Lol it's just funny to me, if you are going to spend the money to go t3 or vband why not make it with a sized turbo worth the investment.
 
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The efr turbos come in a range of sizes. But, as mentioned above spending thousands on a 450hp turbo setup isn't a real good idea for a dsm with all the bolt on options.

To the op's original plan, downsize from the 50trim. Try a dsm76. It'll make 50-75more hp than the 50 trim when pushed, and probably spool a good deal quicker.
 
I was at EFI logics today out in CT and in one of their magazines (Tuner was 2 HOURS late to the dyno appointment, he did make up for it though, but I had some free time) And in one of the DC sport magazines was an article.. touting the miracles of these EFR turbos and how it's the next big thing..

That may be the case for people with late model Focus STs, WRXs and so forth, but our platform is too old for this technology to be adapted properly and efficiently, I've asked a similar question in the past and got a pretty straightforward answer.

No large shop is going to do any sort of R&D on a 20+ year old platform. Period. There is no money to be made, it will not be groundbreaking and even if you do get decent results just remember 400+whp is capable on a tdo5 20g variant and will bolt directly to our setup with no real fuss amazing power and great spool. It just isn't worth it.
 
Evos respond extremely well to the 7163, 7670, 8374. It's not the engine that's the problem, it's the install, and the fact that it's most beneficial to track cars. EFRs are a long turbo, especially with IWG. I must admit that I regret going IWG T4 twin scroll 7670 instead of a IWG or EWG non-divided T3 7163, it's just easier to install.

EFR is more than just a compressor wheel (if it wasn't, just buy a billet-wheel 58mm S200SX, same wheel I believe). Check the bearing size, it's monstrous, and made for endurance.
 
DSMers seem to want peak numbers at the lowest cost possible.

Quoted for Truth.

I don't get it. I mean when I was 19, almost a decade a go, and didnt know a damn thing, that was all I cared about.

But I have lived and driven a lot of cars, as fast as my limit of skill and daring would allow. 300zx Nismo, 300zx TT, 3000gt vr4, FC RX7 (Turbo-II and GXL), Saturn Ion Redline, Saturn SC2, both with and without a turbo kit. Couple Fast Chevy Pickups, Couple miatas, turbo and non. The best cars where always the ones that were properly sorted in most respects and never the ones with a big ol turbo that makes 500whp all right at the top of the rev range.

Honestly, some of the best fun I've had was in my NA Miata or a friend's s2000. Those things dont have a whole bunch of power, and they were both begging for a turbo. But damn where they both fun.
 
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