Murdertalon said:

Wrx's aren't turbos, the wrx sti is turbo

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I think you are confused between impreza, wrx, sti... three different trims two of which are turbo from the factory...

lasershark said:

I think you are confused between impreza, wrx, sti... three different trims two of which are turbo from the factory...

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Beat me to it...

Murdertalon said:

Wrx's aren't turbos, the wrx sti is turbo, but many a Wrx's are just the subaru boxer sans turbo. And I don't even register a wrx non turbo as a competitor to a turbo dsm.

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http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2002-subaru-impreza-wrx-long-term-road-test

Let me google that for you.

If your going to talk on this site the LEAST you could do it research the subject before you start making yourself look like a fool when you argue with someone who might be much smarter then you.

Not saying I am, but future reference it wouldn't be a bad idea.

The WRX is to STi as the recent model years ralliart lancer (turbo.. awd) is to evo. Now please stop spreading misinformation.

Murdertalon said:

Wrx's aren't turbos, the wrx sti is turbo, but many a Wrx's are just the subaru boxer sans turbo. And I don't even register a wrx non turbo as a competitor to a turbo dsm.

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I don't believe this has ever been the case for any wrx ever sold in the US. In fact, for a long time they were completely different motors (2.0 vs. 2.5) BOTH turboed, except the STI turbo was larger.

Edit: looks like 3 other people set you straight before I could type this.

Murdertalon said:

don't use arp head studs on a 7bolt because they can cause the block to distort and the thrust bearing surface to become out of round.

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wow never heard of this, where is that info from? Is that with a composite gasket to or just an MLS+ ARP?

Given his ability to do research on other subjects I'd suggest taking that with a grain of salt. Talk to the guys over at Boostin performance and ask them what they think, or perhaps one of the wisemen may chime in on this, I am not familiar, nor do I ever plan to become very well acquainted with any 2g setup much less a 7 bolt engine so I can't give any information on the matter. That is not to say there's anything wrong with them. But I'm a 1g guy.

There is NO WAY an ARP head stud will distort a block enough to change the thrust bearing out of roundness on any 4g63 block. It would strip the threads in the deck side of the block before it did any kind of damage to the mains. Now, it is POSSIBLE, that you could see a distortion (thousandths of an inch we're talking here) to the tops of the cylinder bores IF the ARP's were over torqued to an extreme. It's not odd to see bores distort when bolting down a cylinder head, hence the reason they have torque plates when boring / honing.

Chill out about the wrx thing I'm just more confused now because I've looked at non turbo wrx's for sale at dealerships in my town. http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/everyday-impreza-talk/134303393-non-turbo-wrx.html#/enter

This forum talks about how they shouldn't exist in the USA and I have looked seen them with my own eyes so really I have no freakin clue what to think on that. I thought only the sti was turbo so my bad. (also I'm not a subaru guy) I don't know subarus inside and out because I don't own one.

One thing I do know is I have researched crank walk to the ends of the earth and this made more sense than anything else I've found.

So the other thing, I will bring proof here once I find it again I read about a guy doing blueprints on 7bolt blocks and then doing assembly to find the thrust bearing surface was wiping the oil off the bearing and after much trail and error found that if he machined the thrust surface with a torque plate torqued on with the arp studs that it corrected the issue upon final assembly after- to spell that out basically put torque plate in place of head and throw away head gasket on block, arps torque to spec, machine block, disassembly then whatever desired head gasket and reassembly . He concluded that the actual block strained under the torque of the arp studs something that shouldn't be possible but was- and that was due to a non fixable bad iron structure of the block during casting.

Which some have ventured to guess is why there wasn't a recall issued..

Edit: found it. Thanks
http://www.bcdsm.org/forum/index.php?topic=25724.0

Longer read and in case something gets deleted later:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/update-on-crankwalk-fix.8817/


And because I like to archive everything-
This is for archival purposes in case the other site gets shut down:

Theory of: The cause of crankwalk

Why does crankwalk happen, and what causes it to happy almost solely
on 2G DSM's? To answer this question, you need to look at what makes
the blocks different from eachother, and also look at the actual
metalurgy of the 1G and 2G blocks. From our testing, we have found
that the 1G blocks are actually have a more dense iron content than
the 2G blocks, and are actually stronger. If you notice, on the 1993
and up blocks, they almost seem to have a rib-cage built into them
which is on an engineering level, a very good way to increase
structural integrity. However, something happened in 1995 that
caused Mitsubishi to cheap out on the iron content of the blocks they
were casting. Maybe the R&D of the new car got pricey, and they
needed to cut costs in certain areas or what have you, but those
blocks simply aren't made as strong. The next thing you need to look
at is the thrust area, and that main girdle on the 7 bolt blocks.
Again, from an engineering point of view, a good idea for structural
integrity, and it works great on the 93 and 94 blocks, but again, the
density of the 1995 and up blocks just doesn't quite cut it. This
means you can do one of two things. A. completely change the atomic
composition of the block which would prolly cost you more than your
car did, or B. pick up where Mitsubishi left off, and improve upon
their half-assed design. We chose the latter.

Now, know everyone has been concentrating on oiling, and oil
pressure, and the 2G oil squirters suck, etc. however that idea never
quite held water to me. First off, the oil squirter's main function
is to cool the bottom of the pistons. Secondly, under full throttle,
you are getting upwards of 100psi of oil pressure. 15 pounds of
boost is more than enough air pressure to blow off intercooler pipes
if the clamps are less than perfect, so don't you think 100psi of
liquid pressure would be enough to blow out any bits of grease or
grime in the oil squirters? It doesn't look like a lack of oiling in
my book, from what I have seen on a crankwalked motor. The other
thing I've noticed, is in order to find the cause of crankwalk,
people have dis-assembled blocks, heck, even sliced them in half to
get to the root of the problem. What if the root isn't quite that
deep? What if the cause of crankwalk happens AFTER the short block
begins assembly? If you caught that, read on and I'll elaborate.

Another popular theory of crankwalk is that a heavy pressure plate
causes stress on the crankshaft and literally over time and use will
pull it out of alignment. Those people are actually on the right
track, however something else is failing that is allowing the crank
to be pulled by the pressure plate in the first place. Here comes
our idea. Instead of tearing the block down, and looking at oil
passages, or physically examining the thrust surface, we went the
other way and began assembling, and measuring, and seeing what we
would find. We installed the crank and main girdle, and torqued it
down to factory spec. We then bolted a torque plate on the top of
the block to simulate a cylinder head being bolted down, and we
torqued it to factory spec. What we found ater both had been torqued
was compelling. We measured the thrust area before and after, and
found that it would consistently move .0025-.003" when it had torque
on it! Now, for those who have built and blueprinted an engine
before, .0025-.003" may as well be 2 feet in an area that sees as
much stress and has such a critical job as a thrust bearing. To help
illustrate what is happening here, put your hands together palm to
palm. Now, twist your top hand to the right very slightly and your
bottom hand to the right very slightly. When you "torqued" you
hands, notice they tweaked slightly, and are no longer perfectly
straight. That is what is happening to the 2G block when your
cylinder head is bolted down, and your main girdle is bolted down.
You are causing a condition of pre-mature failure, and things such as
heat, and that heavy pressure plate merely aggravate that existing
problem.

So now we have the root 'cause' of crankwalk, but there's more. This
is going to make sense to those people who have assembled a 4G63
before. When you go to bolt down that main girdle, is there any real
way to line it up perfectly straight? I know I know, the bolt holes
line up, the mains kinda sorta lock into place, yada yada...but are
they going on perfectly straight to the THOUSANDTHS of an inch? If
you can eyeball that, then you are a better man than I. I however,
would put a million dollars on it that there is a measurable
disparity between the tolerances of each main cap, and where it bolts
down. Here's a challenge. Cut the head off a main bolt, and tighten
it down in the hole. Then stick a feeler gauge in there and measure
the clearance between the bolt, and the wall of the bolt hole. Did
you catch it? IF it was going on PERFECTLY sraight, there would be
NO clearance, NO disparity. The bolts would go in much like the
dowels on a flywheel..they would have to be hammered in. Ah ha!
Dowel pins.

A few smart(ly) engineered companies have dowel pinned motors from
the factory; such as Toyota and Nissan. There is a reason for this.
If you are relying on 10 bolts to line up your main girdle, is
essence what you are doing is GUESSING that it's going on straight.
Couple that with your block tweaking and throwing the thrust bearing
off .0025-.003" is like shooting yourself in the foot, and not
learning anything from it. The dowel pins come in to line up that
main girdle PERFECTLY, toleranced to the thousandth of an inch, so
you elliviate any guesswork that may be involved. This is why SOME
motors crankwalk, and SOME do not. Some of the girdles just so
happened to be installed better at the factory, and that is
completely by happenstance and good luck. That's it! However, every
single 2G motor out there does indeed have the capacity to crankwalk,
although some people may never experience it at all.

The Fix

Now that we know what is causing crankwalk, we need to look at how to
fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. First things first, you
must start with a completely flat deck to rule out any possibility of
added 'tweaking' due to an uneven surface (obviously if it goes on un-
evenly, some area will have more pressure applied to them, more
stress, than others.) The block is first cleaned and then decked
true. After that, the main bearing journals are align-honed to
insure we are starting with a perfectly machined bearing surface to
begin with. Then the block needs to be flipped over, and
the 'bottom' end is drilled and machined for dowel pins at 5 points
on the bottom of the block. Matching points are drilled and machined
on the main girdle (obviously, SERIOUSLY close measurements are taken
to ensure everything is perfect..no close, PERFECT.) Just about the
only thing that will withstand than kind of heat is billet steel.
Dowels are formed out of billet steel, and installed into the block.

Obviously at this point, the crank has been inspected, all neccessary
machine work is performed, and it's ready to be installed into the
motor with new main bearings, and new main bolts. The girdle is then
installed on the dowel pins, and hammered down into place. The
dowels are so tight, and fit so well, that you can easily life the
block by it's girdle without any bolts in it. Then the new main
bolts are installed, and torqued to factory spec. The block is
flipped over, and a torque plate is installed to simulate the
cylinder head being bolted down, and then torqued to factory head
bolt specs. The thrust area is measured with everything torqued,
tolerance disparity is recorded, and the block is disassembled. The
crank and bearings are removed, and the process or torqing the torque
plate and main girdle is repeated minus the crank and bearings, and
then the thrust area is re-machined with everything torqued down to
be 100% perfect again. Not close, perfect. The bearings, crank, etc
are all re-installed, and re-measured. The thrust bearing now did
NOT move. Dowel-pinning the main girdle ensured that it went on
perfectly straight every single time which eliminates guesswork and
allows for precise machining.

Regards,

Anyone see that episode of Rick and morty when they drop jerry off at the jerry day care?
"Weeeelll does it have an aux input"
"The faaacttorry tiiiint setting is always to high!!"

Not sure how this turned into a crank walk discussion...

Crank walk theories are like assholes; everybody has one.

I've yet to hear a compelling theory backed up by documented evidence that actually made me want to believe it.

This is more to do with the OP's post than crankwalk and Subarus.....

That post reminds me of my dad and his reminiscing about never seeing old British cars on the road anymore. He talks of days where Sunbeam Tigers and MGs were common. Now they're a rarity but when he sees another enthusiast with one of those micro British cars, his day is made.
I'm not old enough to have been with DSMs since day one but I understand that feeling now. I see another door stop shaped 1g and I get excited. There's almost always a wave from the fellow DSMer who's busted the same knuckles I have and cussed out the car for similar reasons as me.
A while back I read a post on this site written by one of the Wiseman. He explained why the car was actually far more fun when it was basically stock with some light mods. That post stuck with me and I've been happy with my small 16g and ECMlink for a few years now.
Seeing another running DSM is a treat I hope continues for some years to come.

Yeah.. It was mostly to fallow my rabbit hole on why not to use arp head studs unless you can afford to play with engine rebuilding.. Maybe I'm over protective of my dsm.

I think the simple setups are the best with these cars the issue is that even simple setups are complex. Awesome to see how much aftermarket support still exists for the dsm platform.

Any 7 bolts out there running arp head studs that have some good milage on them?

Any 7 bolts running ss braided non restricted 16g oil feed to turbo that has some milage on it?

Murdertalon said:

Any 7 bolts out there running arp head studs that have some good milage on them?

Any 7 bolts running ss braided non restricted 16g oil feed to turbo that has some milage on it?

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I didn't make this thread to ask random questions that have no relation to the topic at hand. I'm not trying to come off as a dick, but please make your own thread, after searching, if you have specific questions like you mentioned..

Murdertalon said:

Any 7 bolts out there running arp head studs that have some good milage on them?

Any 7 bolts running ss braided non restricted 16g oil feed to turbo that has some milage on it?

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Yea my brother has a 97' that has had arp studs and a mitsu MLS we installed at 69k and 7 years ago and the car has 125k on it now. Totally stock Spyder other than dat.

Yea simple is good, I really like the stock parts like the stock intake and exhaust. Nice and quite and bolt in really securely...but I'm fairly old now and over my get every hp no matter what it does to the drivability phase and could care less about 1/4 mile and lap times so i have refined my modding tastes to upgrading the fp, injectors, and turbo only and tuning the sh!t out of it to make more power.

Murdertalon said:

Theory of: The cause of crankwalk


Regards,

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Again, I didn't create this thread to get cluttered up with BS. The crank walk topic had been beaten to death on this site. No one honestly cares about the theories behind it any longer. They just either 6 bolt swap the car, or use the 97+ split thrust bearing blocks (7 bolt). Please keep future posts more on topic. Thanks.

Just found a few pics on Facebook from 2014. 10 psi, EVO 3 16g, 90 fwd laser, bald tires blown shocks 2 nd gear lock out.. Pics in a bit 15's at 99mph! Woo

Slips..

If I recall, it was side mount, stock injectors, open 3" downpipe.. 313k or 319k miles.

Haha awesome was it blowin smoke stacks too

blowing smoke stacks?

90laserRSfwd said:

blowing smoke stacks?

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Because of the mileage...

ahh. No, I"m pretty sure the engine was rebuilt at some point. At least the head was replaced. It had one of those over heating plugs on it (so they know if it gets to hot).

I suppose I am still living in the "good ole evo III 16g days", although I wish I had a bigger turbo :-/

totaleclipse_05 said:

I suppose I am still living in the "good ole evo III 16g days", although I wish I had a bigger turbo :-/

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Stay 16g as long as you can!!

90laserRSfwd said:

Stay 16g as long as you can!!

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This is what I thought of when I read your response