2G Bought used frankenstein 97tsi. What are parts?

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

Hm, don't know where to start. Want to start a quick noobie thread. Came from an Evo x which I did bolt on, tune and turbo, gauges... So I know all the basics and am not new to this game.

Recently bought a 97 tsi awd manual talon after I sold evo. I'm looking for someone to give me quick/dirty answers for the dsm platform without having to go threw pages and pages of idiots arguing back and forth.

-I was told car came with a evo 3 16g. how to check?

-Car comes with a 6 bolt swap (i was told) that something to do with 7 bolt not having a ckps which cause a CEL. Can anyone confirm that a swap would cause a CEL?

-Would a 16g be considered a stock frame turbo for a dsm? I don't know if there is such a thing or if it is t3.

-Whats the the most power that the 6 bolt with stock t case, diffs and tranny can handle without being built safely. Yes I know 'safely'.

-Would I need a bigger turbo and which turbo are dsm guys running now adays. altitude is 2100ft with avail. 91 and 94 oct. when do dsms need injectors, pump... it comes with 510cc yellow top evo 3 injectors, i think a full 3" tbe, intake, bov via with tubular mani.

-The guy I bought it from says its running rich and needs a tune. Under full boost it hits surge/fuel cut SUPER HARD, and even stalls the car. Its like it hits a brick wall. We tuned either threw a POS access port or tractrix obd2 cable with boost and serial data logging 02 wideband. What is my CHEAPEST/FASTEST least hassle way to tune this thing. E tunes doable? I've heard of dsm link, ecuflash, megasquirt, eprom, sending in my ecu. someone clarify this all for me please

-Now for the frankenstein part. It has wires not hooked up and random shit in the pictures. Also supposedly has a 1g swapped in intake mani. Why?
Any and all hints are helpful. Ive played this game before and know my X but dont want to do all the research again for the 2g reading threw what every 16yo kid thinks is good. Thanks guys

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

Pic 1- what is that fourth bolt on the strut tower. Not on the other strut tower
2- LOL

so yea, as long as it doesn't leak is running VTA ok on talons? Im assuming yes since theres no MAP sensors?
3-what mani? What turbo would bolt up to that to make safe power levels
4-real mhi?
5-stock evo injectors?
6-why is that loose and what is it, do I need it, is there a aftermarket one hooked up...
7- pic of rats nest
8-what is that weird looking thick vacuum line running from left to right to that box

synthetek · Nov 25, 2015

Bobbert Oswalder said:
Pic 1- what is that fourth bolt on the strut tower. Not on the other strut tower

Its for the battery tie down

Bobbert Oswalder said:
2- so yea, as long as it doesn't leak is running VTA ok on talons? Im assuming yes since theres no MAP sensors?

Its not OK unless you have a GM Maf or speed density.

Bobbert Oswalder said:
3-what mani? What turbo would bolt up to that to make safe power levels
4-real mhi?

Its a real MHI turbo but you need to find the numbers stamped on it to find out exactly what it is , That manifold can bolt up any Mitsubishi flanged turbo , 14b , 16g , 20g , etc... But cheap tubular manifolds (which that looks like) are prone to cracking.

Bobbert Oswalder said:
5-stock evo injectors?

They look like they are probably EVO yellow top 510cc injectors.

Bobbert Oswalder said:
6-why is that loose and what is it, do I need it, is there a aftermarket one hooked up...

Its the transistor pack for the ignition and its loose because you have a 2g wiring harness and 1g manifold so they don't mount in the same spot.

Bobbert Oswalder said:
8-what is that weird looking thick vacuum line running from left to right to that box

That is cruise control and its a cable , not a vacuum line.

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

See in RED

Bobbert Oswalder said:
Hm, don't know where to start. Want to start a quick noobie thread. Came from an Evo x which I did bolt on, tune and turbo, gauges... So I know all the basics and am not new to this game.

Recently bought a 97 tsi awd manual talon after I sold evo. I'm looking for someone to give me quick/dirty answers for the dsm platform without having to go threw pages and pages of idiots arguing back and forth.
Understood, but these cars are older and trickier than your EVO.

-I was told car came with a evo 3 16g. how to check? On the compressor cover will be a serial number like 49178-01450 or 4917801470. The one pic you have shows cast TDO5h so it is at least and MHI turbo.

-Car comes with a 6 bolt swap (i was told) that something to do with 7 bolt not having a ckps which cause a CEL. Can anyone confirm that a swap would cause a CEL? Yup, the 7 bolts have a crank sensor and need to be wired correctly to not throw a CEL. Count the bolts on the flywheel to verify 6 or 7.

-Would a 16g be considered a stock frame turbo for a dsm? I don't know if there is such a thing or if it is t3.
Nope, and Nope. Biggest stock turbo was the 14B in the 1g's. 2G's use a T25 or T28. Not T3's.

-Whats the the most power that the 6 bolt with stock t case, diffs and tranny can handle without being built safely. Yes I know 'safely'. 350 HP. But the tranny will fail with stock power.

-Would I need a bigger turbo and which turbo are dsm guys running now adays. altitude is 2100ft with avail. 91 and 94 oct. when do dsms need injectors, pump... it comes with 510cc yellow top evo 3 injectors, i think a full 3" tbe, intake, bov via with tubular mani. 510 injectors are ok if it is a 16G and you do need to upgrade the fuel pump if it's not done already. I see an AFPR in there so that's good. If it is a 16G run it they are good turbos and most of us run them as a stage 2 build which it seems yours is at. BUT you need tuning software to run this.

-The guy I bought it from says its running rich and needs a tune. Under full boost it hits surge/fuel cut SUPER HARD, and even stalls the car. Its like it hits a brick wall. We tuned either threw a POS access port or tractrix obd2 cable with boost and serial data logging 02 wideband. What is my CHEAPEST/FASTEST least hassle way to tune this thing. E tunes doable? I've heard of dsm link, ecuflash, megasquirt, eprom, sending in my ecu. someone clarify this all for me please ECM LINK go on website and start reading.

-Now for the frankenstein part. It has wires not hooked up and random sh** in the pictures. Also supposedly has a 1g swapped in intake mani. Why?

Yes looks like a 1G intake manifold. They flow better hence the swap.
Pic of the plug you are holding is the ingnitor pack. They usually bolt to the stock manifold which has been swapped. Hence it laying there. You can mount this wherever convenient. mine is on the firewall.
The other 3 prong plug is for the MAP sensor which apparently is gone and contributing to your issues.

Any and all hints are helpful. Ive played this game before and know my X but dont want to do all the research again for the 2g reading threw what every 16yo kid thinks is good. Thanks guys

I'm not 16.

These are not an EVOX. You have entered a dark and scary world. (welcome to the dark side). Everything is complicated and mixed matched. We enjoy the hell these cars put us though.

Bobbert Oswalder said:
Pic 1- what is that fourth bolt on the strut tower. Not on the other strut tower
It's for the battery tie down bracket which is not there.

2- so yea, as long as it doesn't leak is running VTA ok on talons? Im assuming yes since theres no MAP sensors? See above. You can run a remote MAP.

3-what mani? What turbo would bolt up to that to make safe power levels Find out what it is first.

4-real mhi?
Seems so.
5-stock evo injectors?
Seems so.
6-why is that loose and what is it, do I need it, is there a aftermarket one hooked up...
See above
7- pic of rats nest
Thanks
8-what is that weird looking thick vacuum line running from left to right to that box

Cruise Control Vac Line

synthetek · Nov 25, 2015

It has a 1g manifold because the 6 bolt is a 1g motor so the whole motor was swapped, you cant just swap a 1g manifold to a 2g head because ethe ports are different on the head. These cars do not have a MAP sensor , that plug that is not connected is for the MDP sensor which is not there because there is no place for it on the 1g manifold. it is part of the EGR system and not having it does not affect how the car runs but it can cause a cel.

This is not a vacuum line its a cable for the cruise control.

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oneslowwdsm · Nov 25, 2015

Man I'm astonished people actually took the time to answer your every question when the answers are a simple Google search away. Can't be lazy owning a DSM, these cars require effort.

Take a look here for some good write-ups:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forum/frequently-answered-dsm-questions.44/

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

See underlined,

synthetek said:
It has a 1g manifold because the 6 bolt is a 1g motor so the whole motor was swapped, you cant just swap a 1g manifold to a 2g head because ethe ports are different on the head.

You can swap a 1g manifold to a 2g head. The ports are different but it will bolt up.

These cars do not have a MAP sensor , that plug that is not connected is for the MDP sensor which is not there because there is no place for it on the 1g manifold. it is part of the EGR system and not having it does not affect how the car runs but it can cause a cel.

Hate to disagree, 97 DSM has a map sensor right where that plug lays and has the same color code wires. Your ECU is looking for it.

This is not a vacuum line its a cable for the cruise control.

Agreed, my mistake here.

Mello · Nov 25, 2015

MDP sensor, no MAP. This is why some folks are "DSM Wiseman" & others are not.

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

YOU GUYS ROCK. Knew I could count on you.
I will take my time reading threw all of this.

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

And now the fight begins.

Mello why are being so flipping rude about something so stupid?

Mitsubishi calls it and MDP. Fine, the more common nickname is a MAP which when we swap to a different manifold is often run in its place. Like an OMNI MAP or a remote adaptor. The sensor does a lot more than just contribute to EGR, it's like a downstream air sensor and again, the ECU is looking for it.

So Bobbert you have a choice with this. Hook it up or leave it to dangle.

synthetek · Nov 25, 2015

YUPOK said:
Mitsubishi calls it and MDP. Fine,

The stock ECU only uses it for emissions and not A/F it tells the ECU if the EGR is functioning and if not it triggers a CEL. It is not a true MAP sensor and that's why you need to upgrade to a GM or Omni type MAP sensor if you have an engine management system that supports using a MAP for logging boost , speed density etc... The engine will run the same without it.

YUPOK said:
the more common nickname is a MAP which when we swap to a different manifold is often run in its place. Like an OMNI MAP or a remote adaptor. The sensor does a lot more than just contribute to EGR, it's like a downstream air sensor and again, the ECU is looking for it.

An Omni or aftermarket sensor can not be run in place of the MDP it functions different and you would still get a CEL unless you have ECM link or a way to disable the CEL and use the aftermarket sensor.

YUPOK said:
The sensor does a lot more than just contribute to EGR, it's like a downstream air sensor and again, the ECU is looking for it.

The downstream O2 sensor is only for emissions as well, it triggers a CEL if the catalytic converter is missing or working below efficiency but the CEL is the only negative side effect of not having the downstream O2 or removing the cat.

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

I agree it will run the same but it's also a fail safe. Agreed it's primarily to check the EGR which in this case is gone, but it's also a very simple dummy pressure sensor. Why run the risk? It's an easy modification to prevent CEL and add piece of mind. Arguably looks better than a dangling plug.

Could be run either way but the big theme on Tuners when a mystery car comes thru the forums is to bring the car back to stock and build your way back up. This process of elimination will help when other problems pop up down the road. So yes it is not necessary but since this is a basket case car with a new DSM owner take it in steps. Once he gets a tuning package and more info on the setup and fixes the running rich problem then he can go to a MAP sensor and maybe speed density if he likes.

When I'm wrong I'll admit it but I had a good reason to suggest this.

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

synthetek said:
Its for the battery tie down

Its not OK unless you have a GM Maf or speed density.

GM MAF? As in General Motors? There is a maf sensor hooked up to intake

Its a real MHI turbo but you need to find the numbers stamped Where exactly on turbo? on it to find out exactly what it is , That manifold can bolt up any Mitsubishi flanged turbo , 14b , 16g , 20g if I have a 16g wouldn't this be the next cheapest logical step to amen a little more power? , etc... But cheap tubular manifolds (which that looks like) are prone to cracking. Looks okay right now

They look like they are probably EVO yellow top 510cc injectors.

probably? would I need to pull fuel rail for confirmation from you guys?

Its the transistor pack for the ignition and its loose because you have a 2g wiring harness and 1g manifold so they don't mount in the same spot.

If it doesn't hook up in the same spot is it ok loose? I mean its not hooked up at all?

That is cruise control and its a cable , not a vacuum line.

yep that would make sense.

synthetek · Nov 25, 2015

Bobbert Oswalder said:
GM MAF? As in General Motors? There is a maf sensor hooked up to intake

Yes if you have a GM (General motors) MAF and MAF Translator or ecmlink you can run it vented. It looks like you have a stock maf

Bobbert Oswalder said:
If it doesn't hook up in the same spot is it ok loose? I mean its not hooked up at all?

It should be bolted down , if you search you should be able to find things others have done when not using the stock manifold.

Bobbert Oswalder said:
Where exactly on turbo? on it to find out exactly what it is , That manifold can bolt up any Mitsubishi flanged turbo , 14b , 16g , 20g if I have a 16g wouldn't this be the next cheapest logical step to amen a little more power?

At this point its probably not making all the power it can on the current turbo, you should fix all the problems first. See pic below, that's where the #s should be to identify the turbo. From the looks of the side of the flange in your pic it does look to me like its an EVO III 16g.

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Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

Hm, don't know where to start. Want to start a quick noobie thread. Came from an Evo x which I did bolt on, tune and turbo, gauges... So I know all the basics and am not new to this game.

Recently bought a 97 tsi awd manual talon after I sold evo. I'm looking for someone to give me quick/dirty answers for the dsm platform without having to go threw pages and pages of idiots arguing back and forth.
Understood, but these cars are older and trickier than your EVO.

-I was told car came with a evo 3 16g. how to check? On the compressor cover will be a serial number like 49178-01450 or 4917801470. The one pic you have shows cast TDO5h so it is at least and MHI turbo.

-Car comes with a 6 bolt swap (i was told) that something to do with 7 bolt not having a ckps which cause a CEL. Can anyone confirm that a swap would cause a CEL? Yup, the 7 bolts have a crank sensor and need to be wired correctly to not throw a CEL. Count the bolts on the flywheel to verify 6 or 7. as easy as pulling inspection cover and confirming or is it more involved?

-Would a 16g be considered a stock frame turbo for a dsm? I don't know if there is such a thing or if it is t3.
Nope, and Nope. Biggest stock turbo was the 14B in the 1g's. 2G's use a T25 or T28. Not T3's. so this would still be cheaper keeping this mani and running something that bolts up to it like a 20g

-Whats the the most power that the 6 bolt with stock t case, diffs and tranny can handle without being built safely. Yes I know 'safely'. 350 HP. But the tranny will fail with stock power. wheel hp? f***. even if i dont launch and drive normally? the spd is that much of a POS? what about diffs and t case?

-Would I need a bigger turbo and which turbo are dsm guys running now adays. altitude is 2100ft with avail. 91 and 94 oct. when do dsms need injectors, pump... it comes with 510cc yellow top evo 3 injectors, i think a full 3" tbe, intake, bov via with tubular mani. 510 injectors are ok if it is a 16G and you do need to upgrade the fuel pump if it's not done already. I see an AFPR in there so that's good. If it is a 16G run it they are good turbos and most of us run them as a stage 2 build which it seems yours is at. BUT you need tuning software to run this. what fp do you guys run if i dont have one. I'm guessing a wally 255?

-The guy I bought it from says its running rich and needs a tune. Under full boost it hits surge/fuel cut SUPER HARD, and even stalls the car. Its like it hits a brick wall. We tuned either threw a POS access port or tractrix obd2 cable with boost and serial data logging 02 wideband. What is my CHEAPEST/FASTEST least hassle way to tune this thing. E tunes doable? I've heard of dsm link, ecuflash, megasquirt, eprom, sending in my ecu. someone clarify this all for me please ECM LINK go on website and start reading. f***. this is my biggest mind block. is there no other feasible option other that ecm link?

-Now for the frankenstein part. It has wires not hooked up and random sh** in the pictures. Also supposedly has a 1g swapped in intake mani. Why?

Yes looks like a 1G intake manifold. They flow better hence the swap.
Pic of the plug you are holding is the ingnitor pack. They usually bolt to the stock manifold which has been swapped. Hence it laying there. You can mount this wherever convenient. mine is on the firewall.
The other 3 prong plug is for the MAP sensor which apparently is gone and contributing to your issues.so recommend i do what about this? these cars had a factory map sensor??????

Any and all hints are helpful. Ive played this game before and know my X but dont want to do all the research again for the 2g reading threw what every 16yo kid thinks is good. Thanks guys
See in RED

I'm not 16.

These are not an EVOX. You have entered a dark and scary world. (welcome to the dark side). Everything is complicated and mixed matched. We enjoy the hell these cars put us though.

Cruise Control Vac Line[/QUOTE]

Pic 1- what is that fourth bolt on the strut tower. Not on the other strut tower
It's for the battery tie down bracket which is not there.

2- so yea, as long as it doesn't leak is running VTA ok on talons? Im assuming yes since theres no MAP sensors? See above. You can run a remote MAP. i need map or can cut that out and only run maf?

3-what mani? What turbo would bolt up to that to make safe power levels Find out what it is first. i thought we established its a 16g.

4-real mhi?
Seems so.
5-stock evo injectors?
Seems so.
6-why is that loose and what is it, do I need it, is there a aftermarket one hooked up...
See above
7- pic of rats nest
Thanks you're welcome
8-what is that weird looking thick vacuum line running from left to right to that bo
See in RED

I'm not 16.

These are not an EVOX. You have entered a dark and scary world. (welcome to the dark side). Everything is complicated and mixed matched. We enjoy the hell these cars put us though.

well f***. that sucks.

Cruise Control Vac Line[/QUOTE]

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

synthetek said:
It has a 1g manifold because the 6 bolt is a 1g motor so the whole motor was swapped, you cant just swap a 1g manifold to a 2g head because ethe ports are different on the head. These cars do not have a MAP sensor , that plug that is not connected is for the MDP sensor which is not there because there is no place for it on the 1g manifold. it is part of the EGR system and not having it does not affect how the car runs but it can cause a cel.
so in short picture 6 both of those things loose like that can stay as is? i dont care about CEL

This is not a vacuum line its a cable for the cruise control.
thanks looked aftermarket for some reason
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Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

YUPOK said:
And now the fight begins.

Mello why are being so flipping rude about something so stupid?

Mitsubishi calls it and MDP. Fine, the more common nickname is a MAP which when we swap to a different manifold is often run in its place. Like an OMNI MAP or a remote adaptor. The sensor does a lot more than just contribute to EGR, it's like a downstream air sensor and again, the ECU is looking for it.

So Bobbert you have a choice with this. Hook it up or leave it to dangle.

so uh in short can i safely run the motor by leaving it dangle?

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

synthetek said:
Yes if you have a GM (General motors) i am mystified. why Gm? this is a dodge mitsu. out of what gm car? MAF and MAF Translator or ecmlink so ecm link could then deal with this. ok you can run it vented. It looks like you have a stock maf ill grab a pic although i believe it was a K and N maf (if thats a thing)

It should be bolted down just for safety? or because doing it properly? i just want the thing to run , if you search you should be able to find things others have done when not using the stock manifold.

At this point its probably not making all the power it can on the current turbo, you should fix all the problems first. See pic below, that's where the #s should be to identify the turbo. From the looks of the side of the flange in your pic it does look to me like its an EVO III 16g.

i will do as such thanks
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synthetek · Nov 25, 2015

Bobbert Oswalder said:
so uh in short can i safely run the motor by leaving it dangle?

Yes , you probably have other emissions stuff not hooked up anyway since you have a 1g motor.

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

Not to go off on too much of a tangent I'll help to further explain the MDP. The stock mitsu MDP does 2 things. It primarily senses EGR valve operation but also has a very simple dummy pressure sensor. The MDP sends data to ECU. The ECU compares this data with the MAF. Simply put the MAF is an upstream sensor and the MDP is downstream. The MAF depends on the MDP but the MDP not on the MAF. If the MAF is unplugged the computer freaks and goes to limp mode because it can no longer compare data between the two sensors (and it lost data from other things but we won't go there now). However if the MDP is pulled it goes to null and the computer only reads from the MAF without throwing a CEL. The risk is if the two sensors are working correctly and let's say an upper inter cooler pipe blows this creates a sense in pressure drop and throws a CEL (turbo still spooling so MAF senses vacuum flow but MDP sees nothing). Again the MDP sensor is not sensitive, it reads extremes.

Upgrading to MAP and speed density setup will eliminate the MAF and increase the sensitivity of the sensor on the intake manifold. Using Link, the software is smart enough to measure the pressure with accuracy at the manifold. It no longer cares about the upstream, just what's going into the combustion chamber.

For the sake of getting this car running right and having peace of mind, I suggested hooking back up, or you can leave it out. Choice is yours.

Bobbert Oswalder · Nov 25, 2015

no for the kicker retard question. this couldn't be done by wideband down the line.

great explanation btw.

so back to tuning. i did a bit of reading will be checking tonight if its eprom and socketed. if it is what do i need to tune? boost and wideband serial data logging? and then e tune it with ecu flasH?

Mello · Nov 25, 2015

OP - Listen to the Wiseman.

MDP only does this.

The manifold differential pressure sensor is located in the intake manifold plenum. This sensor detects variations in the manifold negativie pressure when the EGR solenoid is momentarily operated. If the manifold negative pressure, the EGR system is normal.

Limp mode is hard coded in the ECU.

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

Yup, we use GM MAF sensors.

Most common they come off the GM V6 vortex engines. They are less restrictive than the stock MAF and can be put in line with the upper inter cooler pipe.

You will find that we use whatever we can get our hands on to make our cars look and run different. Including parts from GM, VW, Toyota etc. etc.

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

Mello should try to be respectful.

synthetek said:
The stock ECU only uses it for emissions and not A/F it tells the ECU if the EGR is functioning and if not it triggers a CEL. It is not a true MAP sensor and that's why you need to upgrade to a GM or Omni type MAP sensor if you have an engine management system that supports using a MAP for logging boost , speed density etc... The engine will run the same without it.

Not a true MAP but it does
Sense and relay to the ECU.

An Omni or aftermarket sensor can not be run in place of the MDP it functions different and you would still get a CEL unless you have ECM link or a way to disable the CEL and use the aftermarket sensor.

Using Link it's run in its place or you can use an adaptor where the MDP sensor is mounted to a block with a vac port and connected to manifold vac simulating a 2G setup.

The ECM LINK software uses the MDP connector to connect to the computer because it is already setup like a MAP.

http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/gm3barinstall

Limp mode still needs a trigger from a variation between 2 set limits. MAF and MDP data for example.

Link uses the more sensitive sensor to set high low limits (variation)

YUPOK · Nov 25, 2015

Bobbert Oswalder said:
no for the kicker retard question. this couldn't be done by wideband down the line.

Wideband is a post combustion air fuel sensor or a more sensitive 02 sensor that is looking for rich and lean mixture and can also be incorporated to Link. The MAF MAP sensors are for pre combustion.

great explanation btw.

Thanks I try to help.

so back to tuning. i did a bit of reading will be checking tonight if its eprom and socketed. if it is what do i need to tune? boost and wideband serial data logging? and then e tune it with ecu flasH?

You can now install Link on a non-EPROM ECU. They had a breakthrough on that recently.

Once you have Link, start small and work your way up. The main thing is you need to tell the ECU your running different injectors. Then work on all the base steps,timing, TPS, fuel pressure etc. then work on wide band to further tune and as discussed go to speed density. These cars are picky, you need to work your way up without skipping steps.

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2G Bought used frankenstein 97tsi. What are parts?

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