E85 & Methanol Users

oneslowwdsm · May 7, 2015

For anyone running E85 or Methanol in their DSMs or people looking to run it, I encourage you to watch a good documentary called "PUMP." It is now on Netflix and available from other sources as well. Blew my mind.

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(trailer)

curt-s · May 7, 2015

"The movie that will change nothing."

We need better alternative fuels and manufacturing methods than those of e85, that's for sure.

oneslowwdsm · May 7, 2015

curt-s said:
"The movie that will change nothing."

We need better alternative fuels and manufacturing methods than those of e85, that's for sure.

Please explain. E85 and other biofuels could potentially break the oil monopoly.

curt-s · May 7, 2015

said everyone ever before they realized they too could have ultimate control when the demand is high enough. it's another rung on the same ladder. all the oil and gas companies started relatively small when they wanted to surplant the current method of energy production and consumption, then they get big and seize control of the market. with the help of, most obviously, incentives to the major manufacturers and utilizers...

and we need more efficient methods of production and renewal for biofuels so we can speed the next takeover and hostile grip on energy resources.

woot.

donniekak · May 7, 2015

Americans wouldn't be slaves to fuel prices if they didn't buy trucks to drive to a desk job 50 miles away.

The best thing that could happen to alternative fuels is $10 a gallon gasoline.

CrackedDSM · May 7, 2015

Add to the fact that if you filled all the farm land in America with corn for E85, it still wouldn't be enough to keep up with our consumption. Definitely need other alternatives. There was a bio-fuel made from some seaweed that looked amazing before it just kind of went under. I assume big oil made an offer, bought it, threw it in the closet.

I tell people all the time, the day crude oil dries up and the reserves are drained, will be the day they "miraculously" find the cure to fix it.

curt-s · May 7, 2015

If I remember correctly, corn is one of the least efficient sources for ethanol production.. but corn growin happens to be a major market player in the USA. One hand feeds another.

oneslowwdsm · May 8, 2015

CrackedDSM said:
Add to the fact that if you filled all the farm land in America with corn for E85, it still wouldn't be enough to keep up with our consumption. Definitely need other alternatives. There was a bio-fuel made from some seaweed that looked amazing before it just kind of went under. I assume big oil made an offer, bought it, threw it in the closet.

I tell people all the time, the day crude oil dries up and the reserves are drained, will be the day they "miraculously" find the cure to fix it.

Well the point is to have choice, not completly replace. Some states do not have anything but gasoline. If we had more people on ethanol, maybe just maybe we could become independent from foreign oil. Not to mention Ethanol is much better for the environment, which should eliminate the need for smog checks.

oneslowwdsm · May 8, 2015

donniekak said:
Americans wouldn't be slaves to fuel prices if they didn't buy trucks to drive to a desk job 50 miles away.

The best thing that could happen to alternative fuels is $10 a gallon gasoline.

Texas is THE most guilty of this but a lot of trucks are flex fuel anyways. It can be done but big oil wants to hold the monopoly as long as possible.

mitsubishikid · May 8, 2015

I've ran a cocktail mix of both fuel and E85 in my colt vista to pass ca smog It worked pretty good.
I feel it's a good alternative to fuel in some ways kinda hard to find stations sometimes though.

94allwheeldsm · May 8, 2015

I would love to see more alternative fuels. The time is now. It's 2015 for flips sake we have relied on fossil fuels for over 100 years. It's time to move on.

Colt4G63 also · May 8, 2015

Hogwash! In case nobody has been watching the news, the US is already pretty self sufficient, as the world's second largest crude oil producer. Secondly E85 is worse for the environment than gasoline because we have to clear cut more land to grow corn, the production requires a ton of energy, and burning it comes with it's own set of greenhouse gas producing chemicals. Just not all the same ones that gasoline produces. If you really want to save the world and spoil all our fun, we all need to start driving plug in electric cars.
Ps. When our food production is in direct competition with fuel production, we're sliding down a slippery slope.

1990TSIAWDTALON · May 8, 2015

Agreed, corn feeds our livestock which produces food, milk etc. I have seen the article on the biofuel made from seaweed and think it is a good alternative, but using all of our grain for ethanol production is detrimental for maintaining low prices in the grocery stores.

oneslowwdsm · May 8, 2015

Colt4G63 also said:
Hogwash! In case nobody has been watching the news, the US is already pretty self sufficient, as the world's second largest crude oil producer. Secondly E85 is worse for the environment than gasoline because we have to clear cut more land to grow corn, the production requires a ton of energy, and burning it comes with it's own set of greenhouse gas producing chemicals. Just not all the same ones that gasoline produces. If you really want to save the world and spoil all our fun, we all need to start driving plug in electric cars.
Ps. When our food production is in direct competition with fuel production, we're sliding down a slippery slope.

That's just not true. We import 9 million barrels of oil PER DAY. Canada being our biggest supplier and Saudi Arabia in second. We have over 1.5 BILLION bushels of corn in surplus every year, not including cane, grasses, and agricultural waste. Big oil is not stupid. If every town in the U.S. got a farm together with a distillation plant to produce at least half of the fuel that they use, it would seriously devastate oil companies. Also ethanol reduces c02 emissions by 34% compared to gasoline and new technology makes the production much safer as well. Again the idea is not to replace but create choice.

Colt4G63 also · May 8, 2015

Oh well maybe I'm just regurgitating lies that I saw on mainstream tv news, but the data shows domestic crude production on a massive upswing. As for E85 and it's Co2 emissions, does that take into account the rain forest disappearing to plant soy to run cars on? That rain forest is what used to turn the Co2 back into oxygen. They don't advertise those facts. They also don't count the added energy used to convert the biomass into fuel or the byproducts produced in the process..

They also claimed it's a "Clean Fuel" but it depends where you look. E85 vehicles reduce atmospheric levels of two carcinogens, benzene and butadiene, but increase two others, formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.

Colt4G63 also · May 8, 2015

Here's an interesting take on E85: According to Cornell University professor of agriculture David Pimentel, producing ethanol actually creates a net energy loss. According to his calculations, producing corn and processing it into 1 gallon (3.7 liters) of ethanol requires 131,000 BTUs of energy; but 1 gallon of ethanol contains only 77,000 BTUs [source:Health and Energy]. And since farmers are using fossil-fuel-powered equipment to plant, maintain and harvest the corn and are using fossil-fuel-powered machinery to process that corn into ethanol and then, in almost all cases, to ship the product to collection points via fuel-powered transport, the ethanol industry is actually burning large amounts of gasoline to produce this alternative fuel. That ethanol could end up containing less energy than the gasoline consumed to produce it.

Energy efficiency aside, those in Pimentel's camp actually don't see corn as a truly renewable energy source. Pimentel estimates that powering a car for a single year using ethanol would require 11 acres (44,515 square meters) of corn, space that can be used to feed at least seven people [source: Health and Energy]. Since corn fields in the United States take a while to replenish themselves, due to both soil erosion and irrigation issues, those acres would ultimately be out of commission for an extended period of time, meaning no corn for ethanol and no usable land for other food crops. To sustain an ethanol-based fuel industry, more and more farm land would have to be set aside for corn alone. The ultimate result could be a shortage of domestically grown food and higher prices at the supermarket for all sorts of produce.

Tigerinstincts · May 8, 2015

I knew there was talk of a new way tou could run your car without the use of comvential fuel and this was through the production of hydroxy gas(splitting water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen gas). Idk if the set up ever produced enough hydroxy gas to sustain an engine while running but I would love to see this explored more for cars as all we would have to do is fill our cars up with water instead if gas!

oneslowwdsm · May 8, 2015

Colt4G63 also said:
Oh well maybe I'm just regurgitating lies that I saw on mainstream tv news, but the data shows domestic crude production on a massive upswing. As for E85 and it's Co2 emissions, does that take into account the rain forest disappearing to plant soy to run cars on? That rain forest is what used to turn the Co2 back into oxygen. They don't advertise those facts. They also don't count the added energy used to convert the biomass into fuel or the byproducts produced in the process..

They also claimed it's a "Clean Fuel" but it depends where you look. E85 vehicles reduce atmospheric levels of two carcinogens, benzene and butadiene, but increase two others, formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.

Well ethanol can come from a variety of stock not just corn. As far as carcinogens, that's what emission standards are for and ethanol production is still in the beginning phases. Gasoline carcinogens however we know cause smog and polluted cities which in turn becomes dangerous to breathe. It's still relativley un-researched if E85 were the primary fuel of choice, how it would react with humans. In Brazil the primary fuel has been ethanol for the last decade at least.

Colt4G63 also said:
Here's an interesting take on E85: According to Cornell University professor of agriculture David Pimentel, producing ethanol actually creates a net energy loss. According to his calculations, producing corn and processing it into 1 gallon (3.7 liters) of ethanol requires 131,000 BTUs of energy; but 1 gallon of ethanol contains only 77,000 BTUs [source:Health and Energy]. And since farmers are using fossil-fuel-powered equipment to plant, maintain and harvest the corn and are using fossil-fuel-powered machinery to process that corn into ethanol and then, in almost all cases, to ship the product to collection points via fuel-powered transport, the ethanol industry is actually burning large amounts of gasoline to produce this alternative fuel. That ethanol could end up containing less energy than the gasoline consumed to produce it.

Energy efficiency aside, those in Pimentel's camp actually don't see corn as a truly renewable energy source. Pimentel estimates that powering a car for a single year using ethanol would require 11 acres (44,515 square meters) of corn, space that can be used to feed at least seven people [source: Health and Energy]. Since corn fields in the United States take a while to replenish themselves, due to both soil erosion and irrigation issues, those acres would ultimately be out of commission for an extended period of time, meaning no corn for ethanol and no usable land for other food crops. To sustain an ethanol-based fuel industry, more and more farm land would have to be set aside for corn alone. The ultimate result could be a shortage of domestically grown food and higher prices at the supermarket for all sorts of produce.

That's interesting because I have a different source claiming the opposite. BTW your health and energy source does not seem to work.

http://www.cleanairtrust.org/E85-Chemical-Properties-Production.html

-In the latest study, USDA states that the production of ethanol produces 34% more energy than what is utilized in planting and harvesting grains and purifying or distilling them into ethanol. It also concluded that fertilizer industry's low use of energy, increased yields of corn, and technologies in the conversion of fuel helped in the technical and economic ethanol production in the country.

-Apart from the 34% positive gain in energy, ethanol production uses mainly domestically accessible energy like natural gas and coal, which makes the production more economical. All this citations lead to USDA's finding that 1 Btu of liquid fuel utilized in ethanol production produces 6.34 Btu energy output. This simply means that the energy that ethanol produces is more than the energy used in harvesting and distilling corn to acquire ethanol.

I have a conspiracy theory that most deniers are somehow affiliated with oil companies. In this case, deniers have a lot to gain while people who do un-biased research really have nothing to gain in terms of profit.

Chumpaumpalumpa · May 8, 2015

Tigerinstincts said:
I knew there was talk of a new way tou could run your car without the use of comvential fuel and this was through the production of hydroxy gas(splitting water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen gas). Idk if the set up ever produced enough hydroxy gas to sustain an engine while running but I would love to see this explored more for cars as all we would have to do is fill our cars up with water instead if gas!

The fuel you speak of is Oxyhydrogen gas or HHO which is separated as 2H2O --> 2H2+ O2. It is already in stoich when separated and can be supplemented as well as run the engine completely. Orrrr even better, have a plasma plug with a water injector in it so you spray water in and ignite it at the same time. The idea is that the "spark" is so strong that it splits the water molecules and of course should burn at stoich (2:1). However, oxyhydrogen can burn when it is between about 4% and 95% hydrogen by volume. Anyways, using this method potentially means having no valves or valvetrain so no cams and thus a more compact and lightweight engine. Additionally, since you are creating it on demand, there is no tanks of hydrogen to explode, just water in the fuel tank. The most common electrolyte used for increased efficiency is KOH or Potassium Hydroxide which is not consumed in the electrolysis process. So it is safe and the only emission is essentially steam. Oh, and this technology has been around for around 100 years.

Bob_Gobblin · May 8, 2015

If every one stopped buying fuel for 3 days. Not a single drop was sold prices would drop. To where they should be. It has nothing to do with the government its the Fing Arabs.

curt-s · May 8, 2015

We're not Cornfed up here but doesn't ethanol also return worse mpg than traditional gasoline?

Gas won't react that fast to less demand, only more. That's why it jumps so quick but takes forever to fall, if ever. We are burning old stock too.

Chumpaumpalumpa said:
The fuel you speak of is Oxyhydrogen gas or HHO which is separated as 2H2O --> 2H2+ O2. It is already in stoich when separated and can be supplemented as well as run the engine completely. Orrrr even better, have a plasma plug with a water injector in it so you spray water in and ignite it at the same time. The idea is that the "spark" is so strong that it splits the water molecules and of course should burn at stoich (2:1). However, oxyhydrogen can burn when it is between about 4% and 95% hydrogen by volume. Anyways, using this method potentially means having no valves or valvetrain so no cams and thus a more compact and lightweight engine. Additionally, since you are creating it on demand, there is no tanks of hydrogen to explode, just water in the fuel tank. The most common electrolyte used for increased efficiency is KOH or Potassium Hydroxide which is not consumed in the electrolysis process. So it is safe and the only emission is essentially steam. Oh, and this technology has been around for around 100 years.

Sure, but as its not monopolizable, it won't ever be pushed and realized.
What's the specific output of that reaction? Can we get a Fiesta up a slope?

Chumpaumpalumpa · May 8, 2015

curt-s said:
Sure, but as its not monopolizable, it won't ever be pushed and realized.
What's the specific output of that reaction? Can we get a Fiesta up a slope?

True, which is why we will never see it. That is why it will have to be done by people for themselves. The combustion of Hydrogen releases more energy than gasoline. As far as the efficiency, it's somewhere in the 45% range for ICE, about a 15-20% increase. So even supplementing it can return power and MPG gains. It's about $100 to build an HHO generator, though none have been used in a performance application as of yet that I have seen. I think it should be, there are lots of good things that come from it and weight is about 25lbs. You get nice clean combustion chambers as you would with water injection because once the gas is ignited it turns back into water vapor. Producing enough Oxyhydrogen is easy. You need to be able produce approximately 1/4 to 1/2 LPM (liter per minute) of HHO Gas for each Liter of motor size to achieve optimal benefits as far as MPG. As far as performance, this has not been tested but I imagine as a supplement you would not need much more than 1LPM per Liter of displacement under WOT but I cannot say for sure.

oneslowwdsm · May 8, 2015

Bob_Gobblin said:
If every one stopped buying fuel for 3 days. Not a single drop was sold prices would drop. To where they should be. It has nothing to do with the government its the Fing Arabs.

Well I can't speak on insults or stereotyping BUT if you think that then all the more reason to support E85 and bio-fuels as we would be able break off ties with the middle east because let's face it, why else are we there?

curt-s said:
We're not Cornfed up here but doesn't ethanol also return worse mpg than traditional gasoline?
Gas won't react that fast to less demand, only more. That's why it jumps so quick but takes forever to fall, if ever. We are burning old stock too.
Sure, but as its not monopolizable, it won't ever be pushed and realized.
What's the specific output of that reaction? Can we get a Fiesta up a slope?

I saw ONE MPG less than pump 93. I average maybe 17-18 around town but it also depends on the tune. That beats the price of 93 significantly however is about even with 87. The pros far outweigh the cons. It just baffles me as to why it hasn't yet fully been exploited.

curt-s · May 8, 2015

well with manufacturers running conservative rich tunes for regular gas, I wonder what it is for flexfuel. im not talking about the .01% case for tuned vehicles, but the mass public. the stoich ratio is more rich out of the box for e85 so for untuned factory-tuned engines, what kind of numbers are we seeing vs gas?

mitsubishikid · May 8, 2015

^^ You make a good point, it does burn a lot quicker then conventional gasoline, I did notice this when I ran it in my colt vista, but I can't really complain, being that it was less then half the cost of regular low octane gasoline the car smelled like it was cooking corn.

And why are our troops fighting in the middle east? oh I can answer that, we all know the're there for the belly dancers LOL

", OF Course It's For The OIL, but it would be funny being a member of congress and seeing a bill right smack in front of you to sign off on a potentially long lasting conflict in a third world country, just for belly dancers, oh well stranger things have been seen [some signed] by government officials LOL

.

All kidding aside, it would seem oil is a big motivator and vary likely what we're all fighting over, but there could be some thing else in the shadows on the agenda, I won't pretend like I know what it is, but anything is possible.

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