I thought I'd share my experience here. I had both my PCV and my breather vented to atmosphere and it was TERRIBLE. My car wouldn't idle well, I would stall, and my car would lean out terrible at throttle tip in. It was impossible for me to tune these symptoms out with link... I added my PCV back into the system and the problems cleared up. Now I'm not sure if the crank pressure were the root cause of the issues but adding the valve back in DEFINITELY helped. I still need to add the breather back into the system but removing the PCV and breather definitely seem to do more harm than good.

Kapok6 said:

But this got me thinking, how are guys getting away with running just two lines to a vented catch can with no connection to a vacuum source and not having ventilation issues? For instance the guys with forward facing turbos and no intake pipes or filters? Is crank case pressure not an issue if you have good ring seal, and as such, have no need to run a line to a vacuum source?

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TexasTurbo said:

If you're running a street legal street car, then hook your PCV up properly, possibly opening up the flow more than the factory has done and drive your car. If you don't want oil vapor lowering your octane then filter it out. The system needs vacuum on it, period..... PERIOD. However you get that introduced is up to you. Argue it if you want because so and so super hero dsm guy hasn't been running his properly either. He is, likely, very well aware of the issues it causes and may not care. I would stop comparing yourself to other people and speaking for those you don't know personally. Your car isn't their car and you're not them.

Race car - who cares.
Non race car - hook it up properly aka. don't vent to atmosphere. Incorporate a can in the system if you need it.

I've offered you an answer already about how the guys with no intake pipe are getting vacuum in their system. Look the other way and pretend that no dsm has a vacuum pump installed on it, I dunno. I think you guys just like to debate.... badly.

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Everything TexasTurbo stated here is spot on, but I'll toss in a few random thoughts just for giggles.

1). Some (if not most) of the big-power guys DO have crankcase issues, but it's not a major concern to them in the grand scheme of things. One point that a lot of people on this forum don't understand is that there is a huge difference between us mortals, and the very small number of those "big power" cars that people normally think of. Those guys change engines and engine components more often than some of you change underwear. This alone means that the issues you deal with have very little in common with the ones they deal with.

As an example, several years ago I designed and built an open catch can for one of those ^ big power cars that makes well over 1000whp. One of the design parameters was that the engine normally pushes over a liter of liquid oil through two -10 VC outlets in a single pass, so the baffling and capacity had to take that into consideration. A liter of oil (at least) in a single pass out of the head...that is normal for this car due to the engine tolerancing and his setup.

Now jump forward a couple years to last year's shootout. I met someone who was also making (or attempting to make) around 900-1000whp, and was also running two -10s into a generic open can. His engine bay and the passenger side of his windshield was covered in oil, and he was trying to figure out why he had so much blow-by and how to fix it.

My point is, what is perfectly normal on one car may seem completely wrong on another. You have to keep perspective on what it is you are trying to accomplish, and the vehicle you are working with.

2). Anything in the intake charge that isn't fuel or oxygen affects the AFR and can cause problems...no matter how it gets there. Whether it is oil in the IC, oil bypassing a PCV valve and entering the intake, or oil blowing past the rings and being burned...the result is the same. The ability of a CC ventilation system to prevent contaminants from entering the engine should be a major factor in your decision on how to set it up.

3). Exhaust scavenging systems have been tested on DSMs, and the results show that they just aren't that effective. We aren't running NA V8's here; the factory engineers used the turbo inlet for a reason.

(On a related note, it's also possible for exhaust scavenging systems to cause widebands to read erroneously depending on how they are set up. Think about it. )

Calan said:

Everything TexasTurbo has stated in this thread is spot on, but I'll toss in a few random thoughts just for giggles.

1). Some of the big-power guys DO have crankcase issues, but it's not a major concern to them in the grand scheme of things. One point that a lot of people on this forum don't understand is that there is a huge difference between us mortals, and the very small number of those "big power" cars that people normally think of. Those guys change engines and engine components more often than some of you change underwear. This alone means that the issues you deal with have very little in common with the ones they deal with.

As an example, I designed and built an open catch can for one of those ^ big power cars that makes well over 1000whp. One of the design parameters was that the engine normally pushes over a liter of liquid oil through two -10 VC outlets in a single pass, so the baffling and capacity had to take that into consideration. A liter of oil (at least) in a single pass out of the head...that is normal for this car due to the engine tolerancing and his setup. My point is, what is perfectly normal on one car may seem completely wrong on another. You have to keep perspective on what it is you are trying to accomplish, and the vehicle you are working with.

2). Anything in the intake charge that isn't fuel or oxygen affects the AFR and can cause problems...no matter how it gets there. Whether it is oil in the IC, oil bypassing a PCV valve and entering the intake, or oil blowing past the rings and being burned...the result is the same. The ability of a CC ventilation system to prevent this should be a major factor in your decision on how to set it up.

3). Exhaust scavenging systems have been tested on DSMs, and the results show that they just aren't that effective. We aren't running NA V8's here; the factory engineers used the turbo inlet for a reason.

On a related note, it's also possible for exhaust scavenging systems to cause widebands to read erroneously depending on how they are set up. Think about it.

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing TexasTurbo's reasoning that a "properly" setup PCV/Cankcase evac system is essential for most cars. I would agree some kind of system needs to be in place. Hence why I have one of your catch cans with 2 lines from the VC into it, and one out from it to the turbo intake pipe. I was also eyeballing one of your V1 cans for the line I have leading the stock PCV to the intake manifold, which I will contact you about outside of this thread. Again, kind of a hybrid system between what Paul set up and what Jack did. The car idle's and drives beautifully with the lines ran this way, I just need to get a can for the line from the PCV to the IM.

TexasTurbo said multiple times that big HP DSM guys were running vac pumps. I also never denied that as a possibility. Simply asked who he could cite as doing so for the purpose of me reaching out to them to try to get more details on the setup. If they aren't online/on this forum, a phone # or e-mail address would have sufficed, but of course, no information was provided in that regard, just speculation.

As for exhaust scavenging, I would venture to guess the reason it works well on V8's, diesels, and high HP supras is due to more exhaust flow, creating enough pull for the the exhaust gas to pull pressure from the crankcase. Correct me if I am wrong on that interpretation.

In regards to a scavenging system affecting AFR's, the only way I would think that possible is if the o2 sensor was placed AFTER the the scavenging system port on the down pipe, which mine would not if I were to do that as my o2 sensor is placed in the stock location. (Though I currently don't have any intention of running a system set up like this, it needed to be mentioned as it is an "option").

When you say, "think about it", I have thought about how these systems work and different ways to configure them for a few years now having read through your posts, Paul's posts, and posts on other forums/sites pertaining to numerous applications; so yes, I have thought about it.

I can't help but feel like Calan is a personal friend of TexasTurbo.

You admit, 2 cars post 800whp don't run vacuum pumps but just catch cans.

There isn't going to be an argument here whether they work or not, the argument is that a DSM with a vacuump pump is rarer than a black unicorn with wings on Halloween.

Back when I read hotrod magazines and was learning about "big power", vacuum pumps we're used on cars that had such whopper cams that they couldn't operate even vacuum assisted brakes so people started installing them on motors. Eventually people started using them on dry sump systems etc.

Now a days people that plan on using pumps almost always have gigantic power in their eyes or some spectacular build like low drag rings, or dry sump, or 1000+HP.

As you showed Calan, big power simply doesn't care, or they care enough to catch the oil and probably reuse it, but that's besides the point. To me it looks like the spirit of what Kapok is looking for, is driving his big power DSM longer than 1/4 mile at a time while not loosing all the oil in the motor.

And answers from TexasTurbo are just trolling answers that don't contribute to the actual question, and are trolling in nature anyways.

Do we really expect Kapok to mount a $700 vacuum pump system on his car and remove his a/c while we daily drives in humid Texas ?? The solution would work, but it is obviously not what Kapok wants so why keep talking about it and then have mods step in ??

An answe I've been think about for days is remote dry sump for his vehicle I just don't think he would feel comfortable with that.

Kapok6 said:

When you say, "think about it", I have thought about how these systems work and different ways to configure them for a few years now having read through your posts, Paul's posts, and posts on other forums/sites pertaining to numerous applications; so yes, I have thought about it.

Click to expand...

Didn't mean that to sound sarcastic, if it did. It was just a general "think about it" comment directed at the general public.

You are correct...placement of the sensor in relation to the scavenging port is important.

hakcenter said:

I can't help but feel like Calan is a personal friend of Jon.

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I have no idea who TexasTurbo is. In fact, I just asked another staff member who he is not 10 minutes ago.

I would like to though. He seems to be very knowledgeable and has been 100% correct in every statement he's made. And FWIW, I just see discussion here...not trolling.

Somewhat.


But, I think we've gotten your answer Ryan. For guys without an intake pipe, insert the sunglasses meme of 'deal with it'. For street cars, a proper catch can setup like yours.


I was the one that was skeptical about how useful a catch-can setup/properly ventilated crankcase was, but richard33, Kapok6, and your thread on the PCV system, Mr. Calan, set the record straight. I never really understood the sudden burst of needing a complicated catch can setup lately as I've gone fast before with just the little fuel filter in the vent line on a stock system, but always dealt with the dipstick blowing out and few other things. So I'm glad for this thread and the others because this is relevant for sure to my built 4G64 that's going to be assembled and broken in soon. My only gripe is having to make the valvecover ugly with those fittings being welded on now.

Oh I'm sure.

So how many big power dsms have you seen with real pumps ? I'd imagine probably zero, I certainly haven't seen any.

The whole electronic smog pump crap, really blows since they end up burning out cause they weren't designed for continuous use either. Just wondering what is really an option.

CrackedDSM said:

Somewhat.


But, I think we've gotten your answer Ryan. For guys without an intake pipe, insert the sunglasses meme of 'deal with it'. For street cars, a proper catch can setup like yours.


I was the one that was skeptical about how useful a catch-can setup/properly ventilated crankcase was, but richard33, Kapok6, and your thread on the PCV system, Mr. Calan, set the record straight. I never really understood the sudden burst of needing a complicated catch can setup lately as I've gone fast before with just the little fuel filter in the vent line on a stock system, but always dealt with the dipstick blowing out and few other things. So I'm glad for this thread and the others because this is relevant for sure to my built 4G64 that's going to be assembled and broken in soon. My only gripe is having to make the valvecover ugly with those fittings being welded on now.

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I don't know if it would provide enough area for air flow, but you could also tap the back of the block like Dale Morss showed, have that lead to catch can, then catch can to turbo. That would eliminate the the fittings on the VC if it was able to pull enough. I tapped the back of my block and plugged it so there is a port there in case I ever need to incorporate it.

hakcenter said:

Oh I'm sure.

So how many big power dsms have you seen with real pumps ?

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I don't know what "Oh I'm sure" means, and if your question is directed at me or the previous poster, but I personally have not seen a vac pump on a DSM.

Kapok6 said:

I don't know if it would provide enough area for air flow, but you could also tap the back of the block like Dale Morss showed, have that lead to catch can, then catch can to turbo. That would eliminate the the fittings on the VC if it was able to pull enough. I tapped the back of my block and plugged it so there is a port there in case I ever need to incorporate it.

Click to expand...

I've seen some people running block vents with some success, but always on an OTA setup where you need all the available cross-sectional area you can get for air to escape. I've also seen some that just provided another hole for oil to flow out of. I believe that venting the block, front cover, etc. requires some type of custom baffling to be done properly.

As a disclaimer, that ^ comes from discussion with others. I have personally never ran a block vent on a DSM, or had the need to.

That seems like it would be effective at removing the crank case and you can change the size of the orifice and alert the amount of vacuum if needed. Where about did you tap, maybe a pic if possible. But I hear you so with proper baffling and filtering you should be able to keep most of the oil out of the charge air. This is a important and often overlooked area for us street cars so good look on all the info guys.

No disrespect intended towards anyone here, but many, MANY people tend to jump on a bandwagon for no apparent reason...and the topic of CC ventilation seems to have that in spades. I get tons of emails and PM's with questions about everything from adding ports to the block or weird convoluted "revolutionary" routing setups, to running huge ass lines from every orifice possible to some $20 catch can. In everyone one of these cases (and I mean EVERY ONE), not one person has actually measured their crankcase pressure to see what it is.

It's always the same: "It seems like this would work..." or "I think I may need this...".

I've run the exact same setup on a loosely built 475-500whp daily-driven, 2.3L stroker for about 40,000 miles now: just two -8's off the VC into a VS3 can, and a -10 to the turbo inlet. That's it.

This is what my CC pressure typically looks like during a full WOT pull. I also have no issues with oil contamination, as you can see by my AFR's staying well within 1% of target.



Again, not aimed at anyone specific....

Before you go off and invent some crazy solution to a problem that may not even exist, MEASURE YOUR CC PRESSURE. Then, design a system that fixes YOUR issues.... not potential issues that someone else may or may not have. In most cases, a simple setup done correctly is all you need.

See attached pics.

My block.

For the record, I am NOT advocating using the block vent. I am NOT currently utilizing mine. I simply put the vent in place while building the motor in CASE I needed it as it would be impossible to do with the motor in the car.

Here is a thread explaining more. http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-how-tos-installations/675748-4g63-block-vent.html

At some point I intend to check the crank case pressure, as well as tapping the line between the catch can and the intake pipe to see how much vac is actually being pulled by the turbo.

Out of curiosity, you said everything was working fine. Why are you wanting to eliminate the turbo inlet? Are you going to a forward facing setup?

Calan said:

Out of curiosity, you said everything was working fine. Why are you wanting to eliminate the turbo inlet? Are you going to a forward facing setup?

Click to expand...

It was more out of curiosity. Some of the fastest 4g63's I have seen, or turbo cars in general, have no intake pipe, or no filter for that matter. I was curious as to how they got away with it. I was thinking, "how are these guys not blowing dipsticks and oil out everywhere?" The general consensus seems to be, who cares because racecar. I just didn't know if there was an alternative method these guys were using to alleviate these issues. I'm not saying I necessarily want to do it to my current street car, as that would be unwise IMHO, but like I said above, just trying to grasp how different setups work for different applications.

Ahhh... gotcha

Calan said:

No disrespect intended towards anyone here, but many, MANY people tend to jump on a bandwagon for no apparent reason...and the topic of CC ventilation seems to have that in spades. I get tons of emails and PM's with questions about everything from adding ports to the block or weird convoluted "revolutionary" routing setups, to running huge ass lines from every orifice possible to some $20 catch can. In everyone one of these cases (and I mean EVERY ONE), not one person has actually measured their crankcase pressure to see what it is.

It's always the same: "It seems like this would work..." or "I think I may need this...".

I've run the exact same setup on a loosely built 475-500whp daily-driven, 2.3L stroker for about 40,000 miles now: just two -8's off the VC into a VS3 can, and a -10 to the turbo inlet. That's it.

This is what my CC pressure typically looks like during a full WOT pull. I also have no issues with oil contamination, as you can see by my AFR's staying well within 1% of target.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Again, not aimed at anyone specific....

Before you go off and invent some crazy solution to a problem that may not even exist, MEASURE YOUR CC PRESSURE. Then, design a system that fixes YOUR issues.... not potential issues that someone else may or may not have. In most cases, a simple setup done correctly is all you need.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much exactly what I was wondering, but my FB post attracted a troll so I never really got a specific answer that I was going for. I really don't plan to push the setup any crazy amount so I'll measure it just for giggles, but I think dual -8an and a -10an to the intake pipe will be just what I'm after.

There is some good discussion here, but I am going to clean up some of the personal stuff and trash talking. Please leave that on your FB pages.

Don't take it personally if your post (or part of it) goes *poof*.

Anyone have any info on magnus's dry sump ?
http://magnusmotorsports.com/products/dry-sump-products-services/magnus-4g63-dry-sump-full-kit/

Off topic - about the drysump.... The oil pump doesn't have anything to do with crank case ventilation. Blow by is blow by no matter how your oiling system is setup.

Edit: it also appears that there's an entire page on the link you posted with information about that dry sump kit.

TexasTurbo said:

Off topic - about the drysump.... The oil pump doesn't have anything to do with crank case ventilation. Blow by is blow by no matter how your oiling system is setup.

Edit: it also appears that there's an entire page on the link you posted with information about that dry sump kit.

Click to expand...

Dry sumps pull vacuum in the crankcase just so you know. They don't evacuate it but that's not what I'm asking right now.

Magnus quoted vacuum up to 20psi of boost.

I would rather hear from anyone that has seen one to see if it does what it says it does though.

hakcenter said:

Anyone have any info on magnus's dry sump ?
http://magnusmotorsports.com/products/dry-sump-products-services/magnus-4g63-dry-sump-full-kit/

Click to expand...

Being what it is from who it is, I have no doubt it does what they claim. I got a good look at it last year at the SO, and it is a quality piece as expected. But IMO... that is a shit ton more CC vacuum than 99% of us would ever need or want.

If you have the need for a dry sump oiling system and can afford it, then I'm sure the built in scavenging on Marco's pump would be excellent. If your asking about using a dedicated $5,500 system for CC ventilation, you're a bit off your rocker.

Makes me wonder though. They talked about a cam driven one for basically anything but drag racing.

Talk about a cool system though. Reminds me of boats with cam driven water pumps (I have one with that). I didn't see a dollar sign though unless I missed it..

Yeah, price is at the very bottom of the page.