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2G Ethanol DSM won't start, floods.

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Robotech

Proven Member
148
14
Aug 28, 2014
Millers Falls, Massachusetts
I unfortunately bought Phunny's 600 whp Ethanol 1999 DSM. I bought the car in July and it had a wicked case of lifter knock and it took me nearly 2 months to get to it (car just sat on my lift) since I work 70 hours a week on average. Anyways I got to it, replaced the lifters following a procedure someone outlined on this site, and have tried to start it. It seems like it wants to start because it starts to pop slightly. When I pull the plugs, cylinder 1 and 4 have enough liquid that it pools in the cylinder and is dripping off of the plug, while 2 and 3 appear to be more dry. The gas gauge was showing the warning light that it was out of gas. I've since put in 5 fresh gallons of E85.

The only other thing I did was to take off the serpentine belts and pull the harmonic balancer to make sure that the timing was set properly, which it was.

Here is a video of what it does:
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So my questions are: (1)Do you think this is case of bad ethanol?

(2) Could this be related to my lifter job? If so, how?

(3) Can I spray starter fluid into the throttle body or can you not do that with a turbo car?

(4) How do you drain the fuel system on a DSM in case it is bad ethanol?


I have to confess I'm new to turbo cars and new to the DSM scene. I would ask Phunny some of these questions but he sold me the car and then vanished and won't answer email, phone, texts, etc.

Thank you my friends,
David
 
Are you bleeding the lifters down right? Sounds like the lifters are pumped up and hanging some valves open. I read to just put the lifters in, you really can't prime them and don't need to.
 
I checked the firing order, it was correct.[DOUBLEPOST=1411958769][/DOUBLEPOST]Yes i bled the lifters after I put oil into them. I made sure no more oil came out of them and I was able to compress them by hand (which you had to do in order to install them).

So if the lifters are hanging open the valve, then wouldn't they hit the cyclinder? I didn't hear any noises and I've turned it by hand at least literally a dozen of times to make sure that the valves wouldn't hit the cyclinders. If they were stuck open then what happens? Also wouldn't the lifters clear themselves after having the engine turn over so many times?
 
The piston could possibly hit the valves but it sounds like you did the lifter install right. I have heard people letting the lifters sit over night before starting. Why are only two plugs wet? Maybe you should pull the rail and inj, try to start it and watch to see them actually spray. Have you verified spark? Oh and that battery sounds kinda weak, so does the compression. Might wanna do a compression test to see.
 
I think the lifters were done ok. ALthough you brought up an interesting thought... if I did a compression check, that should tell me if the valves are open right? During the compression stroke I should get no compression if the valves are open or very little I'd assume?

I have two plugs that are soaked and two pistons that are full of ethanol, but two that are not, however in the video it is popping on at least one cyclinder, which is probably why the two center cyclinders ARE firing and are burning up the fuel there which would explain why they are more dry. At least that is a theory.[DOUBLEPOST=1412020583][/DOUBLEPOST]My friend is an engine guy but has no experience with OHV engines. He suggests though that it could be a lifter pump up issue. These lifters are supposed to get oil in them right? Is it a possiblity that the lifters aren't getting oil and causing the valve not to open properly?
 
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I think I know what is wrong.... I bought GSC Zero-tick lifters. I called them up today and they told me that their lifters are 20 thousands taller than OEM which is their secret to prevent lifter ticking. However, if the valves are slightly taller than stock, this will essentially mean that lifter keeps the valve open up to 20 thousands! Thus you don't get compression. They said that several other customers have run into this and have had to grind down the lifters 20 thousands and then they worked! At least there is a logical explanation...
 
It may be logical but it is not correct.
What is taller than stock mean, that should have been corrected at the machine shop your valve train geometry would not be correct.
Go back to your old lifters and see what happens.
 
This engine and car have been raced for a while. I didn't design this engine, Phunny did. I'll look at this tonight and see what I have going on. Worse case I will see about doing a leak down test to see exactly which valve is giving me problems.
I thank all of you for your valuable information, this has been a great learning experience for me. At least I feel a lot less frustrated now that I'm understanding the dynamics of how this engine functions and how to troubleshoot this issue.
 
Are you sure the injectors on those cylinders aren't stuck open?

I also ran in to and issue recently where the diaphram in my AFPR went and was pushing fuel through the vacuum line flooding it.
However, that produced fouled plugs on all cylinders.
 
I have found the answer to this problem. I checked compression: 12, 110, 12, 10. I have three of the four cyclinders that have lifters that are keeping the valves open. I put a leak tester on it too and even the one with 110 psi was showing nearly 70% loss, so one of the lifters must be too full of oil.
I looked at the lifters carefully when I turned the engine by hand and found that many of them are not going down at all, they are just staying at exactly the same position. The ones that work properly are moving up and down and are squirting out oil properly.
Very odd that I really did prime these lifters properly and drain out the oil afterwards, but they are not working. I do wonder if they are airlocked. I don't understand what causes the oil to be released from the lifter after it goes into it, I know the check valve on top is supposed to do that, but if I push a pin in from the outside, how then does the check valve open from the inside?
 
WOOHOO!! I got rid of my GSC zero-work lifters and put in some Top Line 99 dollar set of lifters and the engine fired right up! Did a compression test and I'm getting 180psi on 3 cyclinders and 200psi on the fourth, which is excellent from what I understand. I was just so happy to hear the engine fire up again after over two months of sitting there!
I want to thank you all for your help that you offered me, it was invaluable since it lead me down the path to figure out what was wrong and how to fix it :)
Sincerely,
David
 
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