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Torque vs horsepower?

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AWDforthewin

Proven Member
116
0
Feb 28, 2014
Springfield, Oregon
Okay guys I have a 95 gsx that I wish to daily drive currently finishing getting my parts as follows

Hx35 dsm housing
Ported FP race manifold
STM o2 housing atmo dump tube
Tial 38mm WG on O2 housing
ECM link v3
Walbro 255
FIC injectors? Idk what size
Regulator for fuel
Maybe cams?
Full 3" exhaust cattless

Now this would be on a stock rebuilt motor

I don't want the hx35 to be super laggy so want to run about 20-25 psi and make around 400 hp maybe a little more since it's only on a stock motor... I heard this is possible as long as I keep my torque numbers a little lower?

Opinions?
Also what size of injectors would you recommend?
What good would a fuel pimp rewire do?
And if I left anything out of my list feel free to recommend I may have forgot things I'm tired LOL sorry for all the questions !
 
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AWDforthewin said:
1G Eclipse94928 said:
get some 272's for an aggressive cam or 280's less aggressive cam. (brand) Oh and just be careful, to max the hx35 you could grenade the bottom end, like someone else said.[/QUOTE

That means my 264/272 is probably far to aggressive for my motor correct?

What about exhaust sound compared between 272 or 280 cams is there a faster or slower rumble the reason I like the 264/272 cams is the exhaust sounds is oh so sexy
Click to expand...

No It depends on what brand of cam some are more aggressive, if you get a aggressive brand get a 272, if you get like a crower cam get the 280. 264/272 combo on dyno has been really unimpressive from what i've seen.
Click to expand...
 
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Like I said , give a few different vendors a call , a quick search will find you the reputable ones in out community like STM, Forced Performance, Magnus... Just to name a few. These guys will be able to tell you a lot more than the people who have only ran 1 or 2 different cam setups.
 
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AWDforthewin said:
Okay guys I have a 95 gsx that I wish to daily drive currently finishing getting my parts as follows

Hx35 dsm housing
Ported FP race manifold
STM o2 housing atmo dump tube
Tial 38mm WG on O2 housing
ECM link v3
Walbro 255
FIC injectors? Idk what size
Regulator for fuel
Maybe cams?
Full 3" exhaust cattless

Now this would be on a stock rebuilt motor

I don't want the hx35 to be super laggy so want to run about 20-25 psi and make around 400 hp maybe a little more since it's only on a stock motor... I heard this is possible as long as I keep my torque numbers a little lower?

Opinions?
Also what size of injectors would you recommend?
What good would a fuel pimp rewire do?
And if I left anything out of my list feel free to recommend I may have forgot things I'm tired LOL sorry for all the questions !
Click to expand...

This is a loaded question and you will get many different answers! Most of us started with this basic upgraded path provided by the forum and it put each of us in the right direction http://www.dsmtuners.com/sub.php?page=tech. I am very surprised that it has not been posted for you so that you will have an idea on where to start to achieve your desired hp goal. I read in one post above that "horsepower is torque" this is not correct and is just too broad of an answer for anyone to really understand horsepower vs torque.

Plain and simple torque is how hard horsepower is working at a given rpm is the correct answer!

Here you will find the recommendation path to certain hp levels please review and study! My next suggestion is go to the dyno challenge page and look at those profiles that has already achieved the horse ower you want to target and Pm those members and ask them questions about your concerns and their recommendations you will be surprised how much you will find out that will help you in making your deceision! :thumb: http://www.dsmtuners.com/2g-dsm-turbo-upgrade-pathaa Keep us posted on your progress!
 
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Let's sort this out one piece at a time.

Torque is an instaneous force measurement, we get it from cylinder pressure acting on the piston which is attached to the crank. The crank is basically just a driveshaft with levers on it. This pressure acting on the cylinder accelerates the crank at a tangent (the lever) and creates a rotation, more accurately this is described as an angular acceleration.

Horsepower is mathematically derived from torque. Literally - without torque there is no "horsepower." Horsepower is "Torque per unit time."

This is basic high school physics. Now, moving on:

If your goal is 400-425whp, there are many ways to get there. You don't necessarily need big cams, a built head, etc. To do it.

Consider that on stock head/cams/manifold setups, peak power typically comes at around 6500rpm before falling off. The formula describing the (fixed) relationship between torque and power will tell you 425whp @ 6500rpm will only require ~345wtq. To compare:

425whp @ 5500rpm = 406wtq
425whp @ 7500rpm = 298wtq

My first concern would be your short block, if you have a '95 model. It's my opinion that at this point, the vast majority of transition year engines that were prone to "crankwalk" and other issues already have. If you have determined it's healthy and take some precautions (Head studs, BSE, oil squirter delete/replacement, etc.) There's no reason you can't attempt this on your stock block.

Heat and pressure are both the key to making power and the enemy of your stock rotating assembly. Striking a balance is a where you will find success. My opinion and experience on stock block builds, like the one I'm currently running, is that they are more tolerant to increased engine speed than heat. To a point, at least.

So my approach would be to aim for peak power at 6500-7500 rpm at lower boost then trying to use massive midrange torque to hit your goal at lower rpm.

On a tight budget, I'd be putting that 7 blade HX35 in an open T3 .70A/R hung from an ERL manifold with a 38mm gate dumped and 3" downpipe.

On the intake side - a decent 3" FMIC, FP intake pipe, you could stick with the stock intake manifold but a used "street" SMIM (old Magnus or similar) would not hurt, adjustable gears on stock cams retarded a few degrees as needed or HKS 264s and V3 SD.

Ideally on E85, but pump 93 should pull it off as well. Building some redundancy and room to grow into your fuel system can pay dividends in the long run.
 
Upvote0
LandSpeed-DSM said:
Let's sort this out one piece at a time. Torque is an instaneous force measurement, we get it from cylinder pressure acting on the piston which is attached to the crank. The crank is basically just a driveshaft with levers on it. This pressure acting on the cylinder accelerates the crank at a tangent (the lever) and creates a rotation, more accurately this is described as an angular acceleration. Horsepower is mathematically derived from torque. Literally - without torque there is no "horsepower." Horsepower is "Torque per unit time." This is basic high school physics. Now, moving on: If your goal is 400-425whp, there are many ways to get there. You don't necessarily need big cams, a built head, etc. To do it. Consider that on stock head/cams/manifold setups, peak power typically comes at around 6500rpm before falling off. The formula describing the (fixed) relationship between torque and power will tell you 425whp @ 6500rpm will only require ~345wtq. To compare: 425whp @ 5500rpm = 406wtq 425whp @ 7500rpm = 298wtq My first concern would be your short block, if you have a '95 model. It's my opinion that at this point, the vast majority of transition year engines that were prone to "crankwalk" and other issues already have. If you have determined it's healthy and take some precautions (Head studs, BSE, oil squirter delete/replacement, etc.) There's no reason you can't attempt this on your stock block. Heat and pressure are both the key to making power and the enemy of your stock rotating assembly. Striking a balance is a where you will find success. My opinion and experience on stock block builds, like the one I'm currently running, is that they are more tolerant to increased engine speed than heat. To a point, at least. So my approach would be to aim for peak power at 6500-7500 rpm at lower boost then trying to use massive midrange torque to hit your goal at lower rpm. On a tight budget, I'd be putting that 7 blade HX35 in an open T3 .70A/R hung from an ERL manifold with a 38mm gate dumped and 3" downpipe. On the intake side - a decent 3" FMIC, FP intake pipe, you could stick with the stock intake manifold but a used "street" SMIM (old Magnus or similar) would not hurt, adjustable gears on stock cams retarded a few degrees as needed or HKS 264s and V3 SD. Ideally on E85, but pump 93 should pull it off as well. Building some redundancy and room to grow into your fuel system can pay dividends in the long run.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for all the info and not sure if it effects what you said but i will rarely drag this car probably 2 times a year for fun but I would rather get from 0-100 fast that 0-180 eventually
 
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AWDforthewin said:
Thanks a lot for all the info and not sure if it effects what you said but i will rarely drag this car probably 2 times a year for fun but I would rather get from 0-100 fast that 0-180 eventually
Click to expand...

To get to 180mph at all will require about 390-410whp in a 1GB, 2Gs have just about the same "Cd x Area" and it's been confirmed that ~530whp will just clear 200mph. But it requires considerable real estate. With "only ~400whp, it may take 2 miles of table flat level road. Unless you are planning on a 7 second quarter mile, in which case you'll need to just about triple that power and figure out how to put it to the pavement.

So you need to design your setup to make the required power through the RPM your particular transmission/tire combo hits your target speed in the lowest feasible gear. Because of variables like atmospheric or track conditions, plan on having more power at a higher rpm than is strictly required "on paper."

Even doing 180mph in a standing (full) mile car is going to take a minimum of around ~660whp. Casey's 1G Mile car was making about 775whp on his 196mph pass with mild aero work, for example.

So where are you planning to go 100mph, let alone 180mph? The distance you have to work with and the weight of the car are big issues, magnified on shorter courses.

Mind you, if it's not on a track you can consider this conversation over.
 
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You will need to get in touch with the SCTA if you're in California, and start saving now for your safety equipment to pass tech. It can cost as much as the performance bits in some categories. You have to tech for the current record. The two most common classes I've seen DSMs/Galants run under are:

G/PS - 227.080mph
F/PS - 236.599mph
G/BGT - 211.071
F/BGT - 224.458

Full cage, fire suppression and suit, parachute, roof rails, inertia switches, etc. all required. I'm 6 years in and still several more to go before I'll get to run my first sanctioned 200mph pass outside of a mile or half-mile "fun run" like the Chicago Half-mile Shootout in June and October.

Aiming for October, probably not going to have the boost high enough to break 180mph though.

Even that might be ambitious.
 
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LandSpeed-DSM said:
You will need to get in touch with the SCTA if you're in California, and start saving now for your safety equipment to pass tech. It can cost as much as the performance bits in some categories. You have to tech for the current record. The two most common classes I've seen DSMs/Galants run under are:

G/PS - 227.080mph
F/PS - 236.599mph
G/BGT - 211.071
F/BGT - 224.458

Full cage, fire suppression and suit, parachute, roof rails, inertia switches, etc. all required. I'm 6 years in and still several more to go before I'll get to run my first sanctioned 200mph pass outside of a mile or half-mile "fun run" like the Chicago Half-mile Shootout in June and October.

Aiming for October, probably not going to have the boost high enough to break 180mph though.

Even that might be ambitious.
Click to expand...

Yes great point, and thanks for the classes so I can do more research! Even though some of the requirements I don't want, I would without a doubt have my cage and skid plate for rallying done before attempting it, but roof rails and inertia switches sound above my tech level which makes my pockets worry. :hmm:
 
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1G Eclipse94928 said:
Yes great point, and thanks for the classes so I can do more research! Even though some of the requirements I don't want, I would without a doubt have my cage and skid plate for rallying done before attempting it, but roof rails and inertia switches sound above my tech level which makes my pockets worry. :hmm:
Click to expand...

You can get inertia switches for like $35 each at auto parts stores. Roof rails disturb flow over the roof if you get loose and wind up sideways. They can help keep you going straight to an extent also.

Both are affordable and important for cars at speed.
 
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LandSpeed-DSM said:
To get to 180mph at all will require about 390-410whp in a 1GB, 2Gs have just about the same "Cd x Area" and it's been confirmed that ~530whp will just clear 200mph. But it requires considerable real estate. With "only ~400whp, it may take 2 miles of table flat level road. Unless you are planning on a 7 second quarter mile, in which case you'll need to just about triple that power and figure out how to put it to the pavement. So you need to design your setup to make the required power through the RPM your particular transmission/tire combo hits your target speed in the lowest feasible gear. Because of variables like atmospheric or track conditions, plan on having more power at a higher rpm than is strictly required "on paper." Even doing 180mph in a standing (full) mile car is going to take a minimum of around ~660whp. Casey's 1G Mile car was making about 775whp on his 196mph pass with mild aero work, for example. So where are you planning to go 100mph, let alone 180mph? The distance you have to work with and the weight of the car are big issues, magnified on shorter courses. Mind you, if it's not on a track you can consider this conversation over.
Click to expand...

When I said that I mean I would rather have faster acceleration over speed if I had to choose because nowhere will I ever go over 100mhp so I would rather be able to have a "quick" car over a slower "fast" car if that makes any sense.
 
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AWDforthewin said:
When I said that I mean I would rather have faster acceleration over speed if I had to choose because nowhere will I ever go over 100mhp so I would rather be able to have a "quick" car over a slower "fast" car if that makes any sense.
Click to expand...

Determine a tangible goal in order for us to help you. You want to be "quick" and want to make ~400whp but are worried about making too much torque in order to keep the stock 7-bolt intact.

Solution: Build a car that makes peak torque at high rpm and learn to drive in the power band.

I'm fairly certain you would agree that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are both quick and fast? The new 458 and Murcielago both make peak torque at or after 6000rpm. I'm setup the same way, and it's a blast.

It's always been the concept with these super cars everyone fawns over. These cars are just driven differently. This isn't like some lumbering boat of 60s American steel that makes all it's grunt up front and needs to be shifting at 4500rpm.

But then you say you're never going to do 100mph, which I appreciate if this thing is going to be a 100% Street machine. So why do you feel you want/need 400-425whp? Wouldn't something like a 14B or 16G with the boost turned up be more appropriate? Stick to making ~300-350wtq as soon as possible and scoot around town.

What fuel will you be running? A lot depends on this.
 
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That's some good advice. You would very likely be more pleased with a smaller turbo for street use. With that hx35 there's going to be a fair amount of lag, by the time it spools up you'll have to start slowing down on the streets.

Not saying your plan isn't feasible , you just have to think of all aspects. You have to think "do I want this thing to rip when I hit the gas , or do I want to wait before I get slammed back in the seat."

The feeling of that big turbo is fun once you hit boost, but for a streetable car quicker spool time is , in my opinion, always a plus.

Say your driving down the highway , and need to accelerate quickly to get around a car in front of you. Unless you drive around on the highway at 4500 RPMs, it's gonna be a few seconds until that power hits , and when it does you'll be accelerating so quickly you'll likely need to slow down on the street to keep the local authorities on your good side.

Remember you could always run a smaller turbo - with the supporting mods of a big turbo. If you feel like you just need something that'll throw you back a little harder , throw that hx35 on , make sure to re tune it, and have fun.
Not trying to tear down your plans just trying to help you enjoy your ride to its fullest potential.

Like Chris said , your fuel selection is a very important piece in how your car will run and behave depending on boost levels, turbo selection , and the tune.
 
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1G Eclipse94928 said:
Woh, I've wanted to know that landspeed, always wanted a eclipse that could do 200mph, now its time to get an hy35 and visit the longest drag strip I can find. :D
Click to expand...

It's a good thing you have AWD as well :rolleyes: You should hit that 200 mph mark way before LandSpeed hits his 180 mph goal with his inferior FWD and all. :p
 
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Thank you all for the info I would like to just run pump gas but I do have access to e85 just a little harder to get.

And I'm okay with some lag I like a little bit because people that don't know about cars don't expect it after you hit the gas!
 
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Codym, a 20g isn't going to take till 4500 to spool. My b16g with obx manifold spools to my full boost (18psi) by 3100 rpms, and it comes on so hard that low in the range that it torque steers me almost out of my lane in 1, 2 and 3. Sure if I'm in 5th and drop to 4th and gun it that's fine, or just gunning it in 5th (since cruising speed usually = around 3000 rpms).

The bigger point of this whole thing, is he is going to be tapping out a 16g just trying to atain his goal, and it will be running at max output every time he gets to his boost pressure which will need to be mid-high 20's to get the air flow he needs. Hes better off with a good 20g or a turbo of similar size... its not like its an hx52 or some other t4 monster.

And I'm curious where you got these spool numbers on mitsu turbos and housings? Hx35's and 40's are hitting full boost in the mid 20's before 4k...
 
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AWDforthewin said:
When I said that I mean I would rather have faster acceleration over speed if I had to choose because nowhere will I ever go over 100mhp so I would rather be able to have a "quick" car over a slower "fast" car if that makes any sense.
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense to me..:thumb:
 
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Beaubo said:
It's a good thing you have AWD as well :rolleyes: You should hit that 200 mph mark way before LandSpeed hits his 180 mph goal with his inferior FWD and all. :p
Click to expand...

I agree 100 percent. IMO his car is not a good representative of the fwd community.
 
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