97gsxIA said:

I would take what you say more seriously if you didn't make ridiculous statements like this...

Or use acronyms like "" or attach pictures to posts in order to insult another reputable DSMer's intelligence.

You're not setting a very good example for others or showing any intellectual capacity.

That said, I also have a Triple F, no mods to it, built w/ BSE and no oil pressure issues at the head or anywhere for that matter... Readings taken from an actual oil pressure gauge.

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Mr 160 posts you come off pretty judgemental here. There are comments here that would appear just as offensive to mere pics if you have read through this thread or perhaps others that have been posted by Keltalon. Hes contributed to dsmtuners immensely.

Lol amazing so you say these pics are a depiction of the man's intellectual capacity?
You apparently have not read his threads.
Get to know the people involved in the discussion before you draw final conclusions about folks.
This is nothing new between Kels and Landspeeddsm both very knowledgable dudes!

LandSpeed-DSM said:

Here's the thing - your buddy Kels here never actually ascertained there was a problem.

He just felt in his gut that oil pressure was "too low," based on a sending unit (known to be about as precise as a hand grenade) in a different spot compared to the other OFH, using different filters, etc.

This part is not subject to opinion. That's the situation.

I get wanting to support your friends, but this is doing no one any favors.

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Would'nt you be making an assumption by saying that he was basing his conclusions on a 6th sense or just a sending unit? Some of us know a little bit more about how Kels came to his conclusion apparently . I know guys who refuse to post on tuners who have come to the same conclusion as Kels as well but will not post because unfortunately they feel this forum is a joke which I for one dont agree. This forum for sure has helped me a ton meeting knowlegeable guys such as yourself,kels, Alex(Boostdriven),Justin,Snowboarder,etc.

ceedawg said:

First off there is nothing wrong with my motor as it was built with all brandnew parts by Daren of ffwd connection.
Im not trying to be a fan boy here but let me say that when I first primed my motor with the timing belt off and this ffofh filter just installed on the block(pre welded) my friend and I had to look twice as I was spinning the drill on the oil pump nut to make sure that oil was coming through the lifters . It was definitely coming through but at a slower rate and less volume compared to when I had Kels weld the hole for me.

Believe what you guys want but I know there is nothing wrong with my motor. But yes I noticed a difference when I primed the motor again with the welded ofh that alot more oil came out the lifters as well as the oil reaching the head faster compared pre welded.
I had used the same exact oil I had in the motor before taking the ofh off that I sent to Kels.

This is why it seems very reasonable to me about what Kels is saying about welding the hole and I will post my oil pressure as a result once I have the ecm link dialed in.

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So again, there was no measuring involved.

SaulHudson said:

So again, there was no measuring involved.

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Pretty much.

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Great you guys decreased what was being bypassed.. And what suggested to you the original configuration was going to be inadequate? Just a feeling, nothing tangible.

Did you obtain readings for any operating conditions that were beyond or below service limit for the engine or your turbo per their respective manufacturer's field manuals? (Like in my case, using an actual gauge on different parts of the oiling system)

You never determined if you actually had a problem, logically you can't claim to have fixed it.

That's what nearly everyone is trying to illustrate for you two.

SaulHudson said:

So again, there was no measuring involved.

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Dude the visual difference was very very very very obvious which has been told to you several times. Why dont you just try it for yourself which understandably you want to find out. You could physically see the difference just as obvious as you could tell the differnce between a cat and a dog was my personal experience.

Still missing the giant flaw in this line of rationalization.. no one is disputing that if you decrease or remove the relief orifice that flow out of the filter housing will increase. That's not a disagreement anyone has shared.

Rather, what lead you to conclude the initial unmodified operating condition would cause harm on such a commonly used mod that outside this thread no one has ever complained about?

How did you figure this to be a fix if you didn't quantify or qualify a problem?

Anyone? Buehler?

LandSpeed-DSM said:

Pretty much.

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Great you guys decreased what was being bypassed.. And what suggested to you the original configuration was going to be inadequate? Just a feeling, nothing tangible.

Did you obtain readings for any operating conditions that were beyond or below service limit for the engine or your turbo per their respective manufacturer's field manuals? (Like in my case, using an actual gauge on different parts of the oiling system)

You never determined if you actually had a problem, logically you can't claim to have fixed it.

That's what nearly everyone is trying to illustrate for you two.

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All I am telling you is that I personally saw more oil flowing to the top of the head as a result of the welding of the ofh. Thats what Im telling you and I have a kiggly hla If thats important to mention.. Once the car is running I will see what the psi is at idle and high rpms.
Again it would have been alot more conclusive for folks with a measuring device if that had been done. I would assume that the increase volume I saw getting to the head is a good thing also based on Kels findings.

You still have not answered my question concerning my findings which yes was done witnout measuring devices.

My conclusions are also based on others findings who dont care to post on this forum unfortunately which I pointed out to you previously.

Bottomline I do understand why there is a debate and why folks vehemently wish this was looked into more before being posted. I still have my own thoughts on this which obviously did not deter me from having Kels weld my housing.

ceedawg said:

All I am telling you is that I personally saw more oil flowing to the top of the head as a result of the welding of the ofh. Thats what Im telling you and I have a kiggly hla If thats important to mention.. Once the car is running I will see what the psi is at idle and high rpms.
Again it would have been alot more conclusive for folks with a measuring device if that had been done. I would assume that the increase volume I saw getting to the head is a good thing also based on Kels findings.

You still have not answered my question concerning my findings which yes was done witnout measuring devices.

My conclusions are also based on others findings who dont care to post on this forum unfortunately which I pointed out to you previously.

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You are still saying you got more oil. Great. You never actually knew you had a problem with your oil system. You oil could have been withing acceptable limits before and now it's too high for all you know.

Half the point of contesting this opinionated statement is so people don't modify their oil system without first knowing they have a problem when measured in a valued unit.

You still never identified a problem. If I shim my spring, deleted the oil squirters, etc. I have no doubt pressure would increase through the system.

But "why" is the part that doesn't make sense. What need called for this action?

"Hey that doesn't look like enough oil to me" is not a reasonable basis on which to such a grand claim as "the hole needs welding or you will spin bearings with an FFOFH" .. are we on the same page yet? Do you understand the objections now?

You didn't identify or diagnose a problem! You just made a change and received an expected result. That's why this is not a fix but rather misinformation that your other buddies should object to if they are consistent in their reservations and for some folks this is very possibly detrimental advice.

Thats the point everyone is trying to get across guys.

SaulHudson said:

You are still saying you got more oil. Great. You never actually knew you had a problem with your oil system. You oil could have been withing acceptable limits before and now it's too high for all you know.

Half the point of contesting this opinionated statement is so people don't modify their oil system without first knowing they have a problem when measured in a valued unit.

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Kels I believe has an aftermarket oil guage in his car wouldnt he have pehaps found out by now if his oil pressure was too high

Again I understand why the point is being contested but sometimes I feel you dont read peoples posts in there entirety before you post. People have a choice to do the mod or not. Just like porting their oil filter spring orifice or not.

LandSpeed-DSM said:

You still never identified a problem. If I shim my spring, deleted the oil squirters, etc. I have no doubt pressure would increase through the system.

But "why" is the part that doesn't make sense. What need called for this action?

"Hey that doesn't look like enough oil to me" is not a reasonable basis on which to such a grand claim as "the hole needs welding or you will spin bearings with an FFOFH" .. are we on the same page yet? Do you understand the objections now?

You didn't identify or diagnose a problem! You just made a change and received an expected result. That's why this is not a fix but rather misinformation that your other buddies should object to if they are consistent in their reservations and for some folks this is very possibly detrimental advice.

Thats the point everyone is trying to get across guys.

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The hole apparently bleeds the oil into the oil pan as a result starving the bottom end of oil especially at idle and at extremely high rpms was the findings of some folks.The welding of the hole apparently allows it to flow like a 1g ofh.

This thread is beat up bad. Its just not gonna sink in. The original post/video are understood but going back n forth will get no one anywhere. Kel, ive seen plenty of your posts and some of your videos and have a ton of respect for you and the work you've put in on your car but if this hasnt sunk in yet(the fact that there needs to be actual data to substantiate your claims), then im afraid all these posts are wasted. Mine as well.
Im perpetuating it now.... Anyway I think this ones had its day.
Until, that is, someone steps up and does this test. And i mean thoroughly. I would suggest to that person, whomever it may be, to open a thread and get input on how exactly to test this and what to measure/where to measure before and after. Just so there can be no doubt. We dont want any flat-earthers roaming around after its been done , just playin man.
And let me say it again: You have a BADASS car dude. ffofh, side ofh, #### upside down inside out ofh, i dont care! If what you did helped then thats great. Scientific or not. But we have to establish pragmatic thinking and quantifiable results.

I understand that it's easier to spin while priming. It's goin to be at pressures lower than operating. Do you not understand that at higher pressures that tiny little hole won't flow anymore oil because it becomes a restriction?

What you need to understand is that I've put many hours studying and cutting parts apart off the 4G engine to make them better. I've got mods and little tricks to keep these things goin under extreme conditions. I am just about done with figuring out keeping our engines alive at above 9000rpms without having to use a dry sump setup.

And I stated fact here with proof and numbers. But Aparently that's not enough. As I stated before, welding that dinky little hole doesn't do enough to justify making anything more reliable. You port out an ofh probably 50 times bigger than that stupid little hole to drop 10-15psi of oil pressure. How much do you think it's going to change?

Another thing ill bring up, it needs to be clear if these are 1g engines or 2g engine that have also had low pressure problems. Does the forward facing 7-bolt have the hole? 7-bolts alone have there own low oil pressure issues that are oil squirter related.

I'm gonna tell you that the engine that claim to have issues with bottom ends, the ofh was not the problem.

To add, I am testing this and will have logged results via dsmlink and will have an oil temp gauge into the pan for accurate results.

Wow, this thread makes my brain itch and has thoroughly convinced me to leave my FF housing the F alone.

LandSpeed-DSM said:

That's pretty childish.

Being civil, explaining the scientific method - an established process mind you not my opinions.. using data, etc. was all a waste on you, but fortunately future searchers will see what was presented and weigh it against "because I said so."

Why treat nearly every technical topic that you have a belief about in this manner? Once you have rationalized something to yourself do you ever re-evaluate things?

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This is apparently what the supporters of this 'mod' have been failing to realize the entire thread. Super frustrating to read through pages upon pages of this.

keltalon said:

the video is supporting evidence these haters refuse to see it as evidence are you kidding me! this is turning into a word game. I posted the video as big as your screen can hold and the haters still don't want to see it despite copying it in their post

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Not a word game at all, it really seems to be an intelligent discussion on their end, you can't seem to keep up your end of the bargain between you calling everyone 'haters' and basically refusing to listen to what they are trying to get across to you.

The best way to describe your 'evidence' is this: "Look at this video I took of my turbo. It looks like it makes way more boost than the old one, but I have no boost gauge. Therefore it makes more boost."

LandSpeed-DSM said:

Words do have definitions, you know.

Click to expand...

But this logic thing you speak of, it's just your way of confusing me with big words isn't it?

ARFWD said:

No he professionally popped off the oil cap and said. "yup that's good"

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Pretty much. Scientific method of taking a phone video.

ceedawg said:

The hole apparently bleeds the oil into the oil pan as a result starving the bottom end of oil especially at idle and at extremely high rpms was the findings of some folks.The welding of the hole apparently allows it to flow like a 1g ofh.

Click to expand...

This literally makes no sense at all. Re-read what you just wrote once. "bleeds oil into the pan and starves the bottom end of oil"

boost97gst said:

This thread is beat up bad. Its just not gonna sink in. The original post/video are understood but going back n forth will get no one anywhere. Kel, ive seen plenty of your posts and some of your videos and have a ton of respect for
And let me say it again: You have a BADASS car dude. ffofh, side ofh, #### upside down inside out ofh, i dont care! If what you did helped then thats great. Scientific or not. But we have to establish pragmatic thinking and quantifiable results.

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I gotcha! Thanks the car still smiling you stay tuned for more ground breaking records from this beast. Lol

Once again I leave this thread on this note. Thanks to the powers to be of the forum for bringing a feature of the boards to my attention that I never had to use but all these haters have been added to my ignore list you now can have this thread. when anyone on the boards can make over 500whp at 4800rpm with cyclone intake manifold then we can talk It nice to be able to read through the thread with all those blocked post!

keltalon said:

She packs a punch also

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keltalon said:

Once again I leave this thread on this note. Thanks to the powers to be of the forum for bringing a feature of the boards to my attention that I never had to use but all these haters have been added to my ignore list you now can have this thread. when anyone on the boards can make over 500whp at 4800rpm with cyclone intake manifold then we can talk It nice to be able to read through the thread with all those blocked post!

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You are an astoundingly provincial person.

Calling people "Haters" is the last refuge of the vain and ignorant when they've backed themselves into a corner.

I don't hate you or what you feel you've accomplished, I feel sorry for you.. that you are unable to look at things in an objective manner.

You haven't dealt with the content of the discussion. You've just posted non-sequiturs and touted some silly claim about an entirely irrelevant intake manifold "record."

Excessive pride is silly like that though.

Because the main thing you are failing to take away is that this discussion and clarification is not about YOU it's about those among us just getting started that are trying to research.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's hard to provide that when you are unfamiliar with the definition.

When someone has demonstrated to me an error in my understanding, I will accept it and have done so. For example, a block return to the head in a past discussion with bastard. I didn't get pissy about it and post unrelated pictures. I walked out to my garage, grabbed a spare head and checked it out. He was correct and I acknowledged it.

Acknowledging mistakes is not weakness or defeat, unless you've put on such a ridiculous display as in this thread. If a professor points out a glaring flaw in your line of reasoning, do you call them a "hater" also?

It's unfortunate this thread progressed to the point it has before others were able to do some independent testing of this. Keltalon has presented a reasonable though unproven hypothesis, let it stand at that.

Other members of the community have indicated their intention to further this "research". I hope they do and present their findings for the community. With a little patience 6 pages ago I think some bad feelings may have been avoided.

Another thing to add. That hole has restriction to work around anyways. Its the gasket. Ill have results very soon. Goin an extra step farther with the test though.

ARFWD said:

Stock is pre filter forward facing is post filter. This is why it appears to have lower pressure when installing the forward housing.

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I understand that. I was just thinking of all the people that are doing these oil relief porting jobs that are using the stock DSM housings because they are measuring pressure pre filter. Then think, my oil pressure is way too high, when they really should be taking the reading post filter after the pressure drop...

Sp1kE said:

I understand that. I was just thinking of all the people that are doing these oil relief porting jobs that are using the stock DSM housings because they are measuring pressure pre filter. Then think, my oil pressure is way too high, when they really should be taking the reading post filter after the pressure drop...

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Ahh, now we're getting it.

Which is part of why this discussion went down the path it did.

Yet, for some reason when several people pointed out these glaring logical flaws you decided to run to his defense, posting this steaming pile:

Sp1kE said:

Why are you guys being such d-bags to the OP?

He found an issue, and he addressed it.
Pretty much the same thing as a boost leak. It will take longer to reach the desired pressure, but sooner is better

There are no exact numbers to go along with it, but that hole is limiting the pressure when the relief piston has not opened.
Could be 1psi at idle, could be 5+?
Instead of correcting terminology and writing super long scientific jibberjabber posts, go out there with a pressure gauge and test the before and after.

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That's the rub.

Among other massive problems with what's been claimed by the topic starter here and in other threads.. is that they aren't even accounting for where the motherf*cking stock "sensor" goes in the first place between the different housings. Let alone its dubious accuracy which I covered in an earlier post that compared it to an actual calibrated sensor.

Nor considering the different filters used, or what the actual pressures were, or really anything pertinent to making objective measures.

They have no clue if they identified a "problem," which is why they can't claim to have fixed it.. because they can't show anything was objectively "broken." To make the stretch that this is actual cause of spun bearings is even more loony-tunes.

Yet you still called us "d-bags?"

We weren't going on tangents about intake manifolds, posting ad-hominems or pictures of crack pipes.

We were dealing with the content its self.

Now that you have joined the rest of the thinking adults in this discussion, I am offering a two-for-one deal on limited edition Anti-Tiger(TM) Rocks.

I even showed how you would take pressure readings and apply that information practically earlier in this thread:

LandSpeed-DSM said:

I shared this in another oil gauge and pressure related thread a couple days ago:

LandSpeed-DSM said:

A proper oil pressure gauge is a wise investment for any car, stock or modified. Spend the money on a reputable brand, and with a little forethought you can order some lines, fittings and caps you'll be able to take pressure at several spots by just moving the sending unit around as you please.

You can then check from the OFH, tee'd into your turbo feed, or the head.

When everything went back together last spring and the HX52 went on for the first time, the new oil pressure sensor was on the turbo feed with the stock gauge sender in the factory spot. So when we primed the pump with a drill we could verify pressure was reaching the turbo. Then made sure that turbo oil pressure was both steady and within manufacturer spec on the thicker oil I chose for this setup. (Cold start max, idle min, loaded min, and hot max)

After a few days to get a baseline on the turbo line, pulled the sensor and plugged the tee then moved it over to where the 1G factory turbo feed line hooks up. Used this to check on the Kiggly HLA for a few days, and the onto an open port on the OFH (Aircooled '90 OFH) to see what the actual pressure is vs stock gauge. The stock gauge might as well just a light that just turns on, off and dims or brightens a bit. Barely moves when the pressure swings 10-15psi

Then in late November when the temperature dropped into the teens over in the weeks before I put her away I would get a puff of blue smoke on letting off the throttle from high rpm. Sensor on the OFH was giving me upwards of 90-100psi, decided to check the the turbo feed which was 85psi at the same rpm. Spec hot max is ~75psi per the Holset FSM. Switched to a 5w40 from the 20w50, pressure went down but still met the minimums. Put the sensor back on the OFH and left it there.

Most decent gauge kits will cost > $100, fittings/caps maybe $50 depending on your setup. It's worth it. The only lines I bought were for the feed, which I needed anyways(old pic):

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Opening the relief valve at the pump (the source of flow and thus pressure) will drop pressure across the entire system. The drop will be greater farther down the line. That part is not really up for debate, it's the same for any fluid system and that concept applies to electrical systems to.. "Resistance."

Here's some diagrams of our oiling system with different types of OFH, notice the head is the end of the line:

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You can easily test pressure in the head through two spots, at the HLA galleys and the (1G) stock turbo feed port. Which I should mention in testing the HLA, I actually used the HLA galley and then moved to the turbo feed port.

Again, the relief is directly after the pump on these OFH, not just the 1990. It's the same principal used in several fuel systems. The pressure regulator/relief is directly after the pump to limit max system pressure.

If you drop the spring rate at the relief, you will have decreased pressure at the head and by more than what you saw at the OFH because of pumping losses.

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Where he made his observation of perceived "inadequate flow/pressure," at the head through the oil cap.. is after a separate valve body (HLA) that intentionally restricts how much oil is provided to the lifters and cam journals.

Well I still think that the hole should be plugged.
Just a question, of how must of a boost in pressure does it actually provide at idle? A measly unhelpful 0.5psi, or 5+psi.

Anti-Tiger rocks???
racist remark, or simpsons reference?

Sp1kE said:

Well I still think that the hole should be plugged.
Just a question, of how must of a boost in pressure does it actually provide at idle? A measly unhelpful 0.5psi, or 5+psi.

Anti-Tiger rocks???
racist remark, or simpsons reference?

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Well, here's the thing "feeling" and what you see with your eyes are notoriously unreliable. It's also not anything you should be using to base claims on.

Kel and Cee can't answer the change in pressure because they never measured whether they should have plugged it in the first place.

No one who builds these engines for a living has ever mentioned any issues with low pressure associated with the FFOFH, that goes to include the ones that don't sell FFOFHs either.

In fact I've never come across any post here, on Link, NABR.. anywhere reporting trouble with low pressure on a build with an FFOFH and any corroborating evidence towards a link between the two.

Conversely: You do realize that too much pressure can cause problems as well? Right? There is a reason the factory specs oil weight by climate and bearing tolerances?

The same reason both JB and BB CHRA turbo manufacturers have spec ranges for both min/max pressure and flow under different operating conditions?

The one that also lead to the factory including an HLA?

Feelings and Eye-witness testimony are just as useless in a technical discussion as they are in Court.

As I mentioned a couple pages back:

You would be better able to tailor your pressure vs. oil weight requirements with that hole present because to change or alter pressure, you now have two options:
- Shimming or cutting the piston spring as necessary, or installing a different one (JNZ unit for example)
- Threading/countersinking the FFOFH's relief hole for something like nitrous jets or similar orifices.

Click to expand...

Every setup is different. It's why some people have to port the relief regardless of OFH type, a much more common mod.

Just try to use some semblance of critical thinking.

/Simpsons reference.. but feel free to start a separate discussion elsewhere on how that could possibly be racist?

Well I finally got around to swapping out my springs and retainers in the car last night. So ill be firing up my car after I get the cams in and button it all up. Ill be testing these pressures.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that my oil readings are post filter. So my above 75psi pressures are gonna be a bit higher than that. I also didn't realize until this thread popped up that the forward housing was post filter. That being said I do have a significant loss from the gauge on the housing, to the head where the turbo feeds.

ARFWD said:

Well I finally got around to swapping out my springs and retainers in the car last night. So ill be firing up my car after I get the cams in and button it all up. Ill be testing these pressures.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that my oil readings are post filter. So my above 75psi pressures are gonna be a bit higher than that. I also didn't realize until this thread popped up that the forward housing was post filter. That being said I do have a significant loss from the gauge on the housing, to the head where the turbo feeds.

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As do I, pumping losses are considerable through the block.

At the HLA galleys with the Kiggly unit, I was getting steady upper teens across the board in the summer/fall on VR1 20w50. That valve is set to keep it around ~15psi and does not regulate via by-passing excess to the head like the stock USDM HLA.

The jdm one is just like the ofh. But that cause the issue or it pissing oil into the head. It's beter than the stock one that is just a relief hole. What would make the JDM one work good is if it was modified and the drain back was straight to the pan. Then you'd be able to adjust the pressure to what you want.

ARFWD said:

The jdm one is just like the ofh. But that cause the issue or it pissing oil into the head. It's beter than the stock one that is just a relief hole. What would make the JDM one work good is if it was modified and the drain back was straight to the pan. Then you'd be able to adjust the pressure to what you want.

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I've not played with it, but it looks like you may be able to adjust the spring pre-load on the Kiggly unit by turning the fastener in/out.

The Kiggly HLA does not dump the bypassed oil into the head, only the oil that pushes the valve open to get past goes through the lifter galleys this way.

so what size diameter hole should we drill to acheive these lower oil pressure results?

how much unmetered oil should we be leaking back into the oil pan?

is the mighty max ffofh gasket the same part number as the talon ofh?

is there anywhere else in the oil system we should drill a similar hole?

how much of a boost leak causes a tuning issue? is a unmetered boost leak acceptable?
how much of a oil leak causes a turning issue? is a unmetered oil leak acceptable?

as paranoid as we all are about these engines, im suprised that some think this leak is okay. if a dohc 4g63 had this hole in the stock ofh, maybe then this would be worth debating.