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RWD 4G63 Subframe mod?

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Phantom DSM said:
ROFL Lmao

Well OP, another shell to start with and some mods and i can guarantee you will go faster than this "rwd" car. not much of a car anymore. Seriously dude, i can see this thread getting deleted , since there has been no positive progress or safety precaution. What if some kid saw this thread and attempted this as if its possible. You are promoting botchery as if it is an option to drive on the street and be "ok" about it. This is not the movies where the underdog overcomes all odds story..:cry::toobad:
Click to expand...

There hasnt been any positive progress since he started the build.
 
DSM's 4 life said:
Not that it matters but I can build a house....
Click to expand...

No wonder you used fence tubing to build the firewall bars. Did you also built this header using water piping ?? LMFAO...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 
gabytech said:
No wonder you used fence tubing to build the firewall bars. Did you also built this header using water piping ?? LMFAO...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
Click to expand...

I have never seen anything like that! Hahahahahahaha:aha:

DSM's 4 life said:
Not that it matters but I can build a house....
Click to expand...

I'll give you 5000$, can you build me a house?
 
Ok I just read this whole thread. I originally liked the idea because my first love is the 460 ford. I was working on these long before the 4g. Honestly I still would like to go back and use my turbo/efi knowledge to hot rod one dsm style. The main thing about those engines is that they are very big and very strong. The head flow is meh by modern standards but they will suck up nitrous or boost like nobodies business and spit out ungodly amounts of torque.

I also have stared at a combination of gutted 1g and a 460. The thing is I really want to put one in a 69 torino. I still like the 4g too much to redesign a car that already has a bad ass powerplant.

That being said, the torino is one of the first ford unibodies and the shock towers don't play nice with the big block either. Aside from the driveshaft tunnel ordeal you acutally have to do allot of the same work for clearance and chassis reinforcement that you are dealing with now on a torino. So I am saying this isn't such a crazy idea at all compared to what other people have done and think is commonplace in a different group.

I think you should finish it and do it with the big block. You are gonna feel like shit if you give up. Allot of the guys on here are right, some of the ways you have decided to do things are not so great. That is how most people learn to do most things though. I mean just for everything in life. You are just being more public about it and catching way more shit for it. Just have the wisdom and confidence to drop the pride where it is only working against you. You have the will and the basic skills to build this a way that it will work. While it sucks right now, you also now have the attention and interest of many knowledgeable people whose advice most people would ordinarily not have if they were not so plublic about such a project.

My favorite thing about fabrication and metal work is this, almost nothing is ever ruined. Just cut it up and reweld it. It is literally metal crafting, you think a clay sculptor is worried if they don't like the look of a certain part of a project they just worked on? They just do it again. Nothing is lost here and nothing is ruined, there are things you could make better.

My first thought about the subframe location and steering was mustang 2. You did that. My next thought was frame rails and driveshaft tunnel modification.

There are allot of guys making big block torque in these cars. Also unlike fox bodies no one seems to add frame rail connectors. A good cage obviously adds allot to the structure without them. This means 2 things,

1. You can obviously get away with not having full frame rails to the back, you just need to tie them into the unibody structure in a meaningful way.

2. You need the unibody. The whole structure of that car is the body of it, you don't need to build a whole tube frame car but you do need to weld a decent tunnel back in to tie this all together. You already had the idea right with the mustang 2 front end. Get parts from a car that already works with this engine/trans. Go cut the tunnel out of a fox or something rwd unibody and graft it in.

If you you tie that back in with the rest of the dsm unibody and tie the frame rails into that (I would definitely run them back father into the floor) I think it will work.

Just get that set up and running. Get a custom driveshaft to the stock rear and try it out. There's allot of fast high power drag cars on stock 4 bolt rears damn near doing wheel stands. I bet it will not break as easily as you might think. If you do break it then everything else is working very well and you can back half the car which will be much simpler than what you have already done. You will also have the frame rails you can tie the 4 link/ladder bar into for a straight axle.
 
Could this possibly be the most epic, intense, and prolonged troll ever?

Probably not.
 
XLR8 said:
Could this possibly be the most epic, intense, and prolonged troll ever?

Probably not.
Click to expand...

Im guessin its his friend. Or just another idiot on the good ol dsmtuners.

TimIacobucci said:
Ok I just read this whole thread. I originally liked the idea because my first love is the 460 ford. I was working on these long before the 4g. Honestly I still would like to go back and use my turbo/efi knowledge to hot rod one dsm style. The main thing about those engines is that they are very big and very strong. The head flow is meh by modern standards but they will suck up nitrous or boost like nobodies business and spit out ungodly amounts of torque.

I also have stared at a combination of gutted 1g and a 460. The thing is I really want to put one in a 69 torino. I still like the 4g too much to redesign a car that already has a bad ass powerplant.

That being said, the torino is one of the first ford unibodies and the shock towers don't play nice with the big block either. Aside from the driveshaft tunnel ordeal you acutally have to do allot of the same work for clearance and chassis reinforcement that you are dealing with now on a torino. So I am saying this isn't such a crazy idea at all compared to what other people have done and think is commonplace in a different group.

I think you should finish it and do it with the big block. You are gonna feel like shit if you give up. Allot of the guys on here are right, some of the ways you have decided to do things are not so great. That is how most people learn to do most things though. I mean just for everything in life. You are just being more public about it and catching way more shit for it. Just have the wisdom and confidence to drop the pride where it is only working against you. You have the will and the basic skills to build this a way that it will work. While it sucks right now, you also now have the attention and interest of many knowledgeable people whose advice most people would ordinarily not have if they were not so plublic about such a project.

My favorite thing about fabrication and metal work is this, almost nothing is ever ruined. Just cut it up and reweld it. It is literally metal crafting, you think a clay sculptor is worried if they don't like the look of a certain part of a project they just worked on? They just do it again. Nothing is lost here and nothing is ruined, there are things you could make better.

My first thought about the subframe location and steering was mustang 2. You did that. My next thought was frame rails and driveshaft tunnel modification.

There are allot of guys making big block torque in these cars. Also unlike fox bodies no one seems to add frame rail connectors. A good cage obviously adds allot to the structure without them. This means 2 things,

1. You can obviously get away with not having full frame rails to the back, you just need to tie them into the unibody structure in a meaningful way.

2. You need the unibody. The whole structure of that car is the body of it, you don't need to build a whole tube frame car but you do need to weld a decent tunnel back in to tie this all together. You already had the idea right with the mustang 2 front end. Get parts from a car that already works with this engine/trans. Go cut the tunnel out of a fox or something rwd unibody and graft it in.

If you you tie that back in with the rest of the dsm unibody and tie the frame rails into that (I would definitely run them back father into the floor) I think it will work.

Just get that set up and running. Get a custom driveshaft to the stock rear and try it out. There's allot of fast high power drag cars on stock 4 bolt rears damn near doing wheel stands. I bet it will not break as easily as you might think. If you do break it then everything else is working very well and you can back half the car which will be much simpler than what you have already done. You will also have the frame rails you can tie the 4 link/ladder bar into for a straight axle.
Click to expand...

Out of ALL the ppl here that are have A LOT of knowledge, i guarantee that this will be the comment that he listens to. Good job sir, u are successful in becoming just as much of an idiot as the op. :thumb:
 
Last edited:
TimIacobucci said:
Ok I just read this whole thread. I originally liked the idea because my first love is the 460 ford. I was working on these long before the 4g. Honestly I still would like to go back and use my turbo/efi knowledge to hot rod one dsm style. The main thing about those engines is that they are very big and very strong. The head flow is meh by modern standards but they will suck up nitrous or boost like nobodies business and spit out ungodly amounts of torque.

I also have stared at a combination of gutted 1g and a 460. The thing is I really want to put one in a 69 torino. I still like the 4g too much to redesign a car that already has a bad ass powerplant.

That being said, the torino is one of the first ford unibodies and the shock towers don't play nice with the big block either. Aside from the driveshaft tunnel ordeal you acutally have to do allot of the same work for clearance and chassis reinforcement that you are dealing with now on a torino. So I am saying this isn't such a crazy idea at all compared to what other people have done and think is commonplace in a different group.

I think you should finish it and do it with the big block. You are gonna feel like shit if you give up. Allot of the guys on here are right, some of the ways you have decided to do things are not so great. That is how most people learn to do most things though. I mean just for everything in life. You are just being more public about it and catching way more shit for it. Just have the wisdom and confidence to drop the pride where it is only working against you. You have the will and the basic skills to build this a way that it will work. While it sucks right now, you also now have the attention and interest of many knowledgeable people whose advice most people would ordinarily not have if they were not so plublic about such a project.

My favorite thing about fabrication and metal work is this, almost nothing is ever ruined. Just cut it up and reweld it. It is literally metal crafting, you think a clay sculptor is worried if they don't like the look of a certain part of a project they just worked on? They just do it again. Nothing is lost here and nothing is ruined, there are things you could make better.

My first thought about the subframe location and steering was mustang 2. You did that. My next thought was frame rails and driveshaft tunnel modification.

There are allot of guys making big block torque in these cars. Also unlike fox bodies no one seems to add frame rail connectors. A good cage obviously adds allot to the structure without them. This means 2 things,

1. You can obviously get away with not having full frame rails to the back, you just need to tie them into the unibody structure in a meaningful way.

2. You need the unibody. The whole structure of that car is the body of it, you don't need to build a whole tube frame car but you do need to weld a decent tunnel back in to tie this all together. You already had the idea right with the mustang 2 front end. Get parts from a car that already works with this engine/trans. Go cut the tunnel out of a fox or something rwd unibody and graft it in.

If you you tie that back in with the rest of the dsm unibody and tie the frame rails into that (I would definitely run them back father into the floor) I think it will work.

Just get that set up and running. Get a custom driveshaft to the stock rear and try it out. There's allot of fast high power drag cars on stock 4 bolt rears damn near doing wheel stands. I bet it will not break as easily as you might think. If you do break it then everything else is working very well and you can back half the car which will be much simpler than what you have already done. You will also have the frame rails you can tie the 4 link/ladder bar into for a straight axle.
Click to expand...
He already gave up on the big block and he sold it. He mentioned that a page back. Slowly but surely, the project is crumbeling. Please dont feed the troll with more enthusiasm. Seriously im almost getting fed up with this thread..I cant take it anymore :beatentodeath::beatentodeath:
But on the bright side, maybe this thread will be as famous as the infamous "Spanish Tuner" Google it for the people that want endless fun and shock. LOL
 
boosted240 said:
Really, ## gonna link a funny thread that 72 pages long... ### here goes the rest of my day
Click to expand...
Bro, be prepared..it took me days to finish awhile back.LOL This thread here has potential to be similar to spanish tuner.
 
boosted240 said:
Im like a little kid. Im just going through looking at pictures. LOL
Click to expand...
My favorites are the ported compressor housing inlet, grooved cylinder head surface, the valves and the spray painted starter and driveshaft. LOL
 
boosted240 said:
Really, ## gonna link a funny thread that 72 pages long... ### here goes the rest of my day
Click to expand...

Sorry man. I had to share it though, too good to keep hidden ROFL

Yeah, If paint can stick to it, he will paint it. I think he spent more on paint than that ebay turbo :D

The sad thing is, the guy thought that he was doing a great job. Later on in the that thread, some guy stumbled upon the thread and started reading and said that he had just dropped his car off at the same tuner.
 
DJ Raydiate said:
Sorry man. I had to share it though, too good to keep hidden ROFL

Yeah, If paint can stick to it, he will paint it. I think he spent more on paint than that ebay turbo :D

The sad thing is, the guy thought that he was doing a great job. Later on in the that thread, some guy stumbled upon the thread and started reading and said that he had just dropped his car off at the same tuner.
Click to expand...

O i know. I made it to like page 40 then got bored. Ima be seing blue in my sleep. LOL
 
I know he sold the big block. I also know they are not hard to find or expensive. There are tons of lincolns and trucks floating around no one wants anymore. I daily drove an old lincoln for a long time, the gas mileage is just a killer. There's nothing really wrong with them, they are just enormous engines that eat fuel like a bi***. So they are not in demand. Supply and demand thing, means nasty engine for cheap. That was the main impetus for my switch to dsms, I wanted lots of torque for not allot of money with decent mileage. What else fills the bill?

The big block is what he wanted to do originally. I simply support people following through with stuff they really put their all into. There is clearly allot of work and passion in this. I am not defending poor engineering or unsafe cage design. I just think most people in this thread don't actually care about that and are not actually trying to add anything useful to his project.

There is a balance here, I understand emphasizing the importance of safety in what he is building. The 460 is a serious thing, lots of mass and lots of force production from that mill. You gotta respect that and build accordingly. My problem is calling him a troll?

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Click to expand...

There are trolls in this thread, the OP is actually not one of them.

I believe the entire goddamn spirit of forums such as this is to do creative and usually performance oriented modifications to your car. Most of the general populace does not get this. It's not a value or ego thing, these cars are not worth money, I'm willing to bet most people on here have put more money into a dsm than they are ever going to get back out of it. We are the outsiders here, that is why we band together in a place like this. Why be hostile and negative to someone who is displaying the very essence of what the spirit of the forum is about? I don't actually want an answer to this, if you're acting this way you know who you are and that is your own deal, I have 0 interest in starting any irrelevant or personal arguments with people over this. Just think about what your motivations and intentions are if you are acting this way. I really only am going to address people that are being creative or providing useful information. Gabytech for one has provided allot of useful info. I can understand being frustrated with his stubbornness but that is part of a personality that actually gets crazy shit done.

Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own
Click to expand...

Sort of strange to quote Bruce Lee for car modification but I think it fits. If you filter out the useful information here you would see who is actually being helpful and where the content of this thread is. This is not a troll thread, there is useful information here, especially if the OP takes this same advice and keeps what is specifically his own (big block talon) and applies the other two ideas this can work and we will all learn from it. No real need for the name calling and ball busting. If you were actually on board and trying to help and friends with the guy, THEN you can give him shit.

Also speaking to this crazy safety concern here and dsmers relative place in the automotive world; by most people's standards and modern car manufacturers legal obligation now, exactly how safe is an all wheel drive sports car modified to put 500+ hp to the wheels with no airbags, no antilock brakes, no traction control and seats 4 where there probably should only be two?

Most legit dsms most people would rightfully consider deathtraps.

I am not arguing against safety, I'm just saying this guy is actually building a cage in his car before it's even driven. Most dsmers will only do that when they get kicked out of the track they like to go to, and usually very reluctantly at that.

How about this, give criticism of specific things he's done that you personally have experience with and know how to do better. If you don't have a cage in your car, don't talk about his cage.

Like I said not defending some of the mistakes made here. Most of what Gabytech has said is correct. The side bars need to meet the floor without that angle. The car needs a structurally sound driveshaft tunnel and it needs the cage and front frame tied into it. Not a sheetmetal cosmetic cover like some full frame drag cars have, but a real unibody structural sheetmetal tunnel and firewall. Considering what he's already done though I believe these things are within his capability. It needs to be nhra legal, I mean you want to race it when it's running right? This isn't even a matter of opinions here, it's just the regulations if you want to do what I am assuming you want to do with this car when it's finished.

Not that anyone has really been talking to much trash about the big block, especially after he said he sold it obviously but most every 460 swapped fox is about an automatic 10 sec car. That's before anything silly like nitrous. If he gets it sorted and running it WILL RUN. The idea itself has merit.

If you need a little more encouragment to get back on track with the big block check out this website if you have not seen it before.

Re in"Car"nation High Performance - Home

Such a crazy deal from such a cool guy. Scott has so many years of porting experience and he explains with extremely specific detail and pictures exactly how to port these heads for a $30 subscription. Imagine if some of the top dogs here gave away all their secrets they've learned about the 4g in explicit detail for $30? Granted the 4g63 head is a work of art in comparison to MOST 385 series cylinder heads. I'm just gonna leave the boss out of that argument.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 
TimIacobucci said:
I know he sold the big block. I also know they are not hard to find or expensive. There are tons of lincolns and trucks floating around no one wants anymore. I daily drove an old lincoln for a long time, the gas mileage is just a killer. There's nothing really wrong with them, they are just enormous engines that eat fuel like a bi***. So they are not in demand. Supply and demand thing, means nasty engine for cheap. That was the main impetus for my switch to dsms, I wanted lots of torque for not allot of money with decent mileage. What else fills the bill?

The big block is what he wanted to do originally. I simply support people following through with stuff they really put their all into. There is clearly allot of work and passion in this. I am not defending poor engineering or unsafe cage design. I just think most people in this thread don't actually care about that and are not actually trying to add anything useful to his project.

There is a balance here, I understand emphasizing the importance of safety in what he is building. The 460 is a serious thing, lots of mass and lots of force production from that mill. You gotta respect that and build accordingly. My problem is calling him a troll?



There are trolls in this thread, the OP is actually not one of them.

I believe the entire goddamn spirit of forums such as this is to do creative and usually performance oriented modifications to your car. Most of the general populace does not get this. It's not a value or ego thing, these cars are not worth money, I'm willing to bet most people on here have put more money into a dsm than they are ever going to get back out of it. We are the outsiders here, that is why we band together in a place like this. Why be hostile and negative to someone who is displaying the very essence of what the spirit of the forum is about? I don't actually want an answer to this, if you're acting this way you know who you are and that is your own deal, I have 0 interest in starting any irrelevant or personal arguments with people over this. Just think about what your motivations and intentions are if you are acting this way. I really only am going to address people that are being creative or providing useful information. Gabytech for one has provided allot of useful info. I can understand being frustrated with his stubbornness but that is part of a personality that actually gets crazy shit done.



Sort of strange to quote Bruce Lee for car modification but I think it fits. If you filter out the useful information here you would see who is actually being helpful and where the content of this thread is. This is not a troll thread, there is useful information here, especially if the OP takes this same advice and keeps what is specifically his own (big block talon) and applies the other two ideas this can work and we will all learn from it. No real need for the name calling and ball busting. If you were actually on board and trying to help and friends with the guy, THEN you can give him shit.

Also speaking to this crazy safety concern here and dsmers relative place in the automotive world; by most people's standards and modern car manufacturers legal obligation now, exactly how safe is an all wheel drive sports car modified to put 500+ hp to the wheels with no airbags, no antilock brakes, no traction control and seats 4 where there probably should only be two?

Most legit dsms most people would rightfully consider deathtraps.

I am not arguing against safety, I'm just saying this guy is actually building a cage in his car before it's even driven. Most dsmers will only do that when they get kicked out of the track they like to go to, and usually very reluctantly at that.

How about this, give criticism of specific things he's done that you personally have experience with and know how to do better. If you don't have a cage in your car, don't talk about his cage.

Like I said not defending some of the mistakes made here. Most of what Gabytech has said is correct. The side bars need to meet the floor without that angle. The car needs a structurally sound driveshaft tunnel and it needs the cage and front frame tied into it. Not a sheetmetal cosmetic cover like some full frame drag cars have, but a real unibody structural sheetmetal tunnel and firewall. Considering what he's already done though I believe these things are within his capability. It needs to be nhra legal, I mean you want to race it when it's running right? This isn't even a matter of opinions here, it's just the regulations if you want to do what I am assuming you want to do with this car when it's finished.

Not that anyone has really been talking to much trash about the big block, especially after he said he sold it obviously but most every 460 swapped fox is about an automatic 10 sec car. That's before anything silly like nitrous. If he gets it sorted and running it WILL RUN. The idea itself has merit.

If you need a little more encouragment to get back on track with the big block check out this website if you have not seen it before.

Re in"Car"nation High Performance - Home

Such a crazy deal from such a cool guy. Scott has so many years of porting experience and he explains with extremely specific detail and pictures exactly how to port these heads for a $30 subscription. Imagine if some of the top dogs here gave away all their secrets they've learned about the 4g in explicit detail for $30? Granted the 4g63 head is a work of art in comparison to MOST 385 series cylinder heads. I'm just gonna leave the boss out of that argument.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
Click to expand...
I have taken the liberty of proof reading your motivational manuscript. Notice that i did highlight in bold sentences that contradict the whole matter of this thread.
I and as well as more knowledgeable people were in initial support then after shock and awe of sheer stubborness of the OP, we gave up. By the way i was very close to offer a Texas clean shell to ship with our business route to new york as a christmas gift for the OP, so he can start his life over with a REAL dsm !!
A 460 block and the word "balance" in a weight to power ratio is just ridiculous. Not too mention nobody cares to put as much money to make them that fast. Tel me how much it costs to make it go that fast to make a fox body mustang and automatic 10 sec carWTF ??? I guarantee you they would rather drop a 351 windsor or just work with the 5.slow they come with and they can get decent numbers.
Also i would rather drive an AWD with 500hp than this abomination built with a heavy ass big block.
The fab work done so far shows how inexperienced OP is and nothing is capable about this build so far.
Other members have posted motivation posts like you and like i said before, please stop motivating a mistake.
One more thing, there are rwd guys with 4g63 going low 9s , i see them making big power dollar for dollar than a 460 junkyard motor he was about to drop in. Come on, lets stay realistic here. 6 months ago i was beig nice and tried reasoning with the guy, now i gave up and just have to speak bluntly. Our negativity is coming out for a reason.
I'am merely keeping this conversation intelligent, Im not attacking you, and you sound like a smart guy, so think about whats been said here.
 
TimIacobucci said:
Also speaking to this crazy safety concern here and dsmers relative place in the automotive world; by most people's standards and modern car manufacturers legal obligation now, exactly how safe is an all wheel drive sports car modified to put 500+ hp to the wheels with no airbags, no antilock brakes, no traction control and seats 4 where there probably should only be two?

Most legit dsms most people would rightfully consider deathtraps.
Click to expand...

Your criticizing the safety standards of a 20 year old car in defense of someone who just removed his firewall and destroyed the structural support of a unibody.

ROFL
 
TimIacobucci said:
I know he sold the big block. I also know they are not hard to find or expensive. There are tons of lincolns and trucks floating around no one wants anymore. I daily drove an old lincoln for a long time, the gas mileage is just a killer. There's nothing really wrong with them, they are just enormous engines that eat fuel like a bi***. So they are not in demand. Supply and demand thing, means nasty engine for cheap. That was the main impetus for my switch to dsms, I wanted lots of torque for not allot of money with decent mileage. What else fills the bill?

The big block is what he wanted to do originally. I simply support people following through with stuff they really put their all into. There is clearly allot of work and passion in this. I am not defending poor engineering or unsafe cage design. I just think most people in this thread don't actually care about that and are not actually trying to add anything useful to his project.

There is a balance here, I understand emphasizing the importance of safety in what he is building. The 460 is a serious thing, lots of mass and lots of force production from that mill. You gotta respect that and build accordingly. My problem is calling him a troll?



There are trolls in this thread, the OP is actually not one of them.

I believe the entire goddamn spirit of forums such as this is to do creative and usually performance oriented modifications to your car. Most of the general populace does not get this. It's not a value or ego thing, these cars are not worth money, I'm willing to bet most people on here have put more money into a dsm than they are ever going to get back out of it. We are the outsiders here, that is why we band together in a place like this. Why be hostile and negative to someone who is displaying the very essence of what the spirit of the forum is about? I don't actually want an answer to this, if you're acting this way you know who you are and that is your own deal, I have 0 interest in starting any irrelevant or personal arguments with people over this. Just think about what your motivations and intentions are if you are acting this way. I really only am going to address people that are being creative or providing useful information. Gabytech for one has provided allot of useful info. I can understand being frustrated with his stubbornness but that is part of a personality that actually gets crazy shit done.



Sort of strange to quote Bruce Lee for car modification but I think it fits. If you filter out the useful information here you would see who is actually being helpful and where the content of this thread is. This is not a troll thread, there is useful information here, especially if the OP takes this same advice and keeps what is specifically his own (big block talon) and applies the other two ideas this can work and we will all learn from it. No real need for the name calling and ball busting. If you were actually on board and trying to help and friends with the guy, THEN you can give him shit.

Also speaking to this crazy safety concern here and dsmers relative place in the automotive world; by most people's standards and modern car manufacturers legal obligation now, exactly how safe is an all wheel drive sports car modified to put 500+ hp to the wheels with no airbags, no antilock brakes, no traction control and seats 4 where there probably should only be two?

Most legit dsms most people would rightfully consider deathtraps.

I am not arguing against safety, I'm just saying this guy is actually building a cage in his car before it's even driven. Most dsmers will only do that when they get kicked out of the track they like to go to, and usually very reluctantly at that.

How about this, give criticism of specific things he's done that you personally have experience with and know how to do better. If you don't have a cage in your car, don't talk about his cage.

Like I said not defending some of the mistakes made here. Most of what Gabytech has said is correct. The side bars need to meet the floor without that angle. The car needs a structurally sound driveshaft tunnel and it needs the cage and front frame tied into it. Not a sheetmetal cosmetic cover like some full frame drag cars have, but a real unibody structural sheetmetal tunnel and firewall. Considering what he's already done though I believe these things are within his capability. It needs to be nhra legal, I mean you want to race it when it's running right? This isn't even a matter of opinions here, it's just the regulations if you want to do what I am assuming you want to do with this car when it's finished.

Not that anyone has really been talking to much trash about the big block, especially after he said he sold it obviously but most every 460 swapped fox is about an automatic 10 sec car. That's before anything silly like nitrous. If he gets it sorted and running it WILL RUN. The idea itself has merit.

If you need a little more encouragment to get back on track with the big block check out this website if you have not seen it before.

Re in"Car"nation High Performance - Home

Such a crazy deal from such a cool guy. Scott has so many years of porting experience and he explains with extremely specific detail and pictures exactly how to port these heads for a $30 subscription. Imagine if some of the top dogs here gave away all their secrets they've learned about the 4g in explicit detail for $30? Granted the 4g63 head is a work of art in comparison to MOST 385 series cylinder heads. I'm just gonna leave the boss out of that argument.

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Something You really need to know that will make you a better troll

somebody had to break it to you, it just happened to be me, and you're welcome!
 
Well by balance I meant safety concern vs getting shit done. I didn't really explain that well, not like f/r balance. Although the stock dsm weight distribution is so terrible I can't imagine you could make it worse. It has allot to do with where you put the weight, you can set the thing pretty far back and low if you are fabricating the whole thing.

I also think the whole dsm drivetrain is heavier than you are giving it credit for, I don't think a big block 1g will be much heavier than stock. I know I'm gonna get chewed for that but if you strip the accessories and all the huge iron/steel crap off these engines they are not that bad really. Minimal accessories and aluminum intake manifold and especially heads and it's on par with an all iron small block.

The bigger comparison for mustangs is that its just easier to use a 351 with the same bellhousing. It's all much more bolt on. If you are talking custom stuff and like with like I don't think it's more expensive to build a powerful big block. Take a look at Scott's website I referenced. There's a spectrum of proven builds using stock ported iron and up for different price ranges.

As far as building a real 10 sec car there's allot more to it than just the engine. If you make a bunch of torque you gotta put it to the ground somehow, everyone likes to argue all the mods you need to get traction with big block torque. How would you not need that with 10 psi on a 5.0? I've done it myself both ways, 500+ ft lbs in a stock fox is gonna blaze the tires regardless of how you make it. A giant electric motor would still need the same supporting mods on the chassis and suspension so that's not really something you can argue.

I already said I thought about this and didn't do it. I agree the 4g rocks. Nothing wrong with using that rwd either. I am only insisting on him continuing with the big block because its what he really wanted to do and I think it will work.

If you really want to dig into it though, at the higher power levels the sheer difference in stress needed to boost a 2.0l engine to the same output vs a 7.5l one is crazy. Not to mention one of the simplest and useful mods for a 460 is stroking the hell out of it. The block is huge and bore/stroke is way over square unlike almost every other big production engine. You can easily bump this engine to 557ci or 9.2l. Right there you need to stress a 2.0l engine, lets say a 2.3 for a fair stroked for stroked comparison, 4x harder. A 351 1.6x more. At levels that are really leaning on these other engines you are not even stressing a 460. So then if you wanted to apply this whole fancy turbo + electronics business on that base, where does that take you? I know you are gonna say a 4g can go well over 1000hp too and you are absolutely right but that is a very high level, expensive , high maintenance engine. Before all the aftermarket cranks/blocks guys in the 60's were using partial block fills on stock blocks and cranks and making 1400+ hp on nitro with these engines. Most of the hp is made in the head/turbo/nitrous system. Making power isn't even so much about the base engine at all, getting the engine to hold it without ripping itself apart when you lean on it is the major qualification for a performance engine in my mind. There's not many stockers that can do this. The 385 series big block, 4g63, 2jz, ls. It's a short list. Once you get past a certain point I honestly think the hp/$ ratio is in favor of a nitrous ls/big block ford.


I wasn't comparing the safety of an old car vs this build, I was just saying look at it from a relative point of view. It's sort of hysterical that this specific community is harping on the safety so much. More of a pot calling the kettle black kind of a thing. The irony of that is just killing me, don't take it personally either way, I just find most stuff funny. I am not defending the structure he has built either mind you. I said specifically what I agree needs to be changed. I'm essentially not disagreeing with any of the constructive criticism that has been given already.

I can empathize with getting fed up with not having your advice taken. It's another one of those funny little life things though, you can only really control yourself, meaning give advice because you want to give advice. It's not really the other persons fault if you are offended if they don't take it, you did what you could do so feel good about that, the rest of his experience in this is on him. Right now I have no idea if anything I am saying is going to change anything, its ok if it doesn't. Its not like my saying nothing at all was going to prevent him from continuing if that is his will. I simply saw allot of energy and enthusiasm and allot of good advice going on here that sort of all took a rather shitty turn, I don't think it needs to be that way so I'm giving it a go.

I won't ever discourage anyone from doing something even if I do think it's crazy. I will explain my point of view but being completely negative with no real content or use is just sort of a waste of life. It's my opinion that experimenting and learning and creating are some of the most essential qualities of being human.
 
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