Dirt Oval Racing: How to make a NA Fast?

fourgsixthree33 · Oct 2, 2013

I have done some searching about dirt oval 1G's, but most of the topics are about setup and handling. I am getting into this as I race dirt modifieds and street stocks. I am tired of seeing all these Honda's at the track with their VTECHHH and bringing home trophies every night in their FWD class.

I would like to state that this class does NOT allow forced induction and the car has to be FWD. Tracks have their own set rules about what you can and can't do with the engine. Most tracks require you to be under a certain compression (compression test).

A mostly stock NA 4G63 is going to be under-powered against the VTECH guys. I know how to make our Turbo 4G63's fast, but I am asking for your help on the NA 4G63. Here is what I am thinking.

Turbo ECU, turbo wiring harness, turbo MAF, turbo injectors, and a turbo injector resistor pack. Basically, I am looking for a turbo DSM shell and rebuild a NA 4G63.

Do I use a knock sensor? I would imagine I would need a knock sensor in order for the car to run half descent. BUT, with the turbo ECU, I will be getting a LOT more timing. Like, damn close to detonation. So with that said, would retarding the timing via the CAS be enough adjustment? Or could I run no knock sensor, thus causing the ECU to pull timing, and get the car to run half descent?

I would imagine DSMlink would be extremely useful. But would it solve all of my concerns?

Is there anything else I have not taken into consideration?

I kind of want to get a 2G turbo shell and drop in the NA 4G63. 2G's are wider, but they are also heavier. And I just think it would be really cool to have a NA 4G63 2G

RWD4G63 · Oct 2, 2013

Yes ECMLink is 100% what you should use for an engine like this. Also, I guarantee you we can build/tune you a Killer NA 4G that will womp on the Honda guys. All your power is going to be in the head and cams, and that's where we specialize!

jhicks92 · Oct 2, 2013

Id start with weight reduction. i had a buddy that did endurance racing with an N/A. the car was bare. not even a windsheild LOL

js

fourgsixthree33 · Oct 2, 2013

RWD4G63 said:
Yes ECMLink is 100% what you should use for an engine like this. Also, I guarantee you we can build/tune you a Killer NA 4G that will womp on the Honda guys. All your power is going to be in the head and cams, and that's where we specialize!

I just can't go overboard due to the rules. Like I said, they have mandatory compression checks. I can probably get away with a set of cams though.

jhicks92 said:
Id start with weight reduction. i had a buddy that did endurance racing with an N/A. the car was bare. not even a windsheild js

In this class, the DOHC cars have to weigh 2400lbs or more. It won't be hard to get down near 2400lbs after gutting it.

I am thinking about using an AWD shell so I will have the independent rear suspension. Thoughts?

jhicks92 · Oct 2, 2013

you seem to know what your doing for the most part. LOL

. as for the speed factor, I/H/E. thats what i always start with.

Diamond Star Werks · Oct 2, 2013

Using big cams can help you get away with extra compression as they can lower cranking compression a good bit.

RWD4G63 · Oct 2, 2013

MJcanada said:
Using big cams can help you get away with extra compression as they can let cranking compression a good bit.

Yes exactly.

crash89 · Oct 2, 2013

fourgsixthree33 said:
I am thinking about using an AWD shell so I will have the independent rear suspension. Thoughts?

Not real sure what you mean here. All DSMs have an IRS system.

BUt yes, Im sure Link would benefit you greatly!! Perhaps some BC272s or a 64/72 combo! Maybe some cam gears, good flowing intake and some slightly larger injector. You'd have yourself a pretty quick little circle track car!

fourgsixthree33 · Oct 2, 2013

crash89 said:
Not real sure what you mean here. All DSMs have an IRS system.

BUt yes, Im sure Link would benefit you greatly!! Perhaps some BC272s or a 64/72 combo! Maybe some cam gears, good flowing intake and some slightly larger injector. You'd have yourself a pretty quick little circle track car!

FWD cars have the solid rear as opposed to the AWD's that use CV joints. If that makes sense.

1qkfwd · Oct 2, 2013

crash89 said:
Not real sure what you mean here. All DSMs have an IRS system.

BUt yes, Im sure Link would benefit you greatly!! Perhaps some BC272s or a 64/72 combo! Maybe some cam gears, good flowing intake and some slightly larger injector. You'd have yourself a pretty quick little circle track car!

1G fwds use straight axle. That's the reason why you cant awd swap a 1G. 2G uses the same unibody.

I can see using IRS in the rear for grip, but in circle track don't you want the rear to slide a bit? Seems like the straight axle would be more beneficial to this.

Also since most classes are limited, couldn't you use a 2G head and an evo3 or rvr intake. Should give you more of a power band.

bastarddsm · Oct 2, 2013

make it as big and as high compression as possible. Evo3 intake. I'd also switch to a AWD trans with a welded CD, then run evo3 gears with a evo 3 final drive. Also get a Quartermaster setup for a single disc. Run a stock damper, get the crank butchered. Aluminum Rods.

#mulletlyfe.

RWD4G63 said:
All your power is going to be in the head and cams, and that's where we specialize!

I would like to see some flow bench work and some testing to verify that all this fancy head work is worth anything.

I would stay away from the maf if you want to make power, and run it SD, but if the cams are big enough you may have to go alpha N to get it to run good.

fourgsixthree33 · Oct 2, 2013

Thanks for the reply's!

From talking with people that run these on dirt, the setup seems to be the complete opposite from the dirt modifieds and street stocks since this class is FWD. I originally reached out to these guys because I wanted to feature them in my DSM magazine. Then, the more I got to talking to them, I realized I was persuading myself to get into this.

I don't really want to talk about the setup in this thread though. I mean it's fine, I just don't want to get too far from the performance side of the discussion.

I definitely want to go SD though!

Heres a video for viewing pleasure. Looks so bad ass! (never thought I would watch this class run and actually be entertained, but hey, it's a damn DSM on dirt!!)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApO25-5C3SM&sns=fb]Midway 4-Cylinder Heats Jim Dunn Memorial 08-12-2012 - YouTube[/ame]

RamenPride · Oct 2, 2013

crash89 said:
Not real sure what you mean here. All DSMs have an IRS system.

2G's yes. 1G FWD rear suspension looks like this:

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crash89 · Oct 2, 2013

RamenPride said:
2G's yes. 1G FWD rear suspension looks like this

Well then, that makes a little more sense.. I was unaware that they were that different. Sorry for the miscommunication!

DSM1G90 · Oct 2, 2013

If weight between Hondas and DSMs are close, should we be looking on how the Honda motors are built compared to the DSM motors.

Is the Honda motors a "undersquare" or "oversquare" motor? DSM DOHC motors are slightly "undersquare", thus taking a bit more time revving up than an "ovesquare" motor would be doing.

Transmissions: what difference are there between gear ratios up to the final drive ratio between the two transmissions ?

Issue is that Honda has the big gain with HP out of a small motor for decades and built their car around the motor. Sad is, that the DSM is actually a hybrid vehicle with a chassis built in the states (more bulk than anything) with a Japanese drive assembly.

Why I say this is that before I got involved with DSM's, I had a 1988 NISSAN PULSAR NX with the 1.8 (CA18DE) DOHC motor. For a NT motor, it had 10.1 compression running on 85/87 stock fuels. HP was at 125HP and it's torque range up in the 6K range (it was an oversquare motor, thus no BS to worry about) and that thing had so much power due to a light chassis that it was very nimble to handle and drive. NISSAN, built that car around that motor - plain and simple.

When I lost the NISSAN due to a "T-bone, parking lot accident (and I was in the store-some clown in a PU just had to lose control of his ride when he was spinning cookies in a parking lot and his big CHEV destroyed the side of my vehicle), is when I found the world of the DSM, and right then, I could tell that the 1G was a far heavier body than the PULSAR that I previously owned, even though the chassis weight was so close between the two.

This could be the 'Achilles's Heel' in this whole equation...

Cdc1221 · Oct 2, 2013

Hondas have an undersquare engine. actually pretty amazing they can rev as high as they do.

fourgsixthree33 · Oct 3, 2013

DSM1G90 said:
If weight between Hondas and DSMs are close, should we be looking on how the Honda motors are built compared to the DSM motors.

Is the Honda motors a "undersquare" or "oversquare" motor? DSM DOHC motors are slightly "undersquare", thus taking a bit more time revving up than an "ovesquare" motor would be doing.

Transmissions: what difference are there between gear ratios up to the final drive ratio between the two transmissions ?

Issue is that Honda has the big gain with HP out of a small motor for decades and built their car around the motor. Sad is, that the DSM is actually a hybrid vehicle with a chassis built in the states (more bulk than anything) with a Japanese drive assembly.

Why I say this is that before I got involved with DSM's, I had a 1988 NISSAN PULSAR NX with the 1.8 (CA18DE) DOHC motor. For a NT motor, it had 10.1 compression running on 85/87 stock fuels. HP was at 125HP and it's torque range up in the 6K range (it was an oversquare motor, thus no BS to worry about) and that thing had so much power due to a light chassis that it was very nimble to handle and drive. NISSAN, built that car around that motor - plain and simple.

When I lost the NISSAN due to a "T-bone, parking lot accident (and I was in the store-some clown in a PU just had to lose control of his ride when he was spinning cookies in a parking lot and his big CHEV destroyed the side of my vehicle), is when I found the world of the DSM, and right then, I could tell that the 1G was a far heavier body than the PULSAR that I previously owned, even though the chassis weight was so close between the two.

This could be the 'Achilles's Heel' in this whole equation...

You bring up several good points. Some in which I had looked over.

I was thinking that weight wouldn't be that much of a factor due to the fact that none of the cars are allowed less than 2400lbs. After gutting a 1G, I could easily get down to 2400lbs. But, weight displacement comes into play.

I guarantee that none of the cars in this class at my local track are tuned. People would walk by my car while I am sitting in the car with the laptop on my lap and think that I am playing a game or something before the race. Just because all they see is a 4 cylinder with a roll cage in it.

Not that I would tune on DSMlink at the track because there are no rules that say you can't tune, BUT there probably would be if someone found out what I was doing :shhh:

bud09 · Nov 30, 2013

when i got my 91 nt i was planning on making is a high compression, high rev engine. a 2.0 long rod, to help with the higher revs and less wear, along with a set of crazy cams and beehive valves and titanium retainers, 10.5:1 compression, forged light weight internals with lightened crank and balanced for 12k, speed density, headers (long tube 4-1) into 2.5 in all the way. i since mostly changed my mind, i have a 14b turbo, and a turbo ecu on it's way. i'd love to see it rev past 10k, haven't heard one go that high.

i wish my track had a 4 cylinder class.

mitchellling14 · Dec 3, 2013

bastarddsm said:
make it as big and as high compression as possible. Evo3 intake. I'd also switch to a AWD trans with a welded CD, then run evo3 gears with a evo 3 final drive. Also get a Quartermaster setup for a single disc. Run a stock damper, get the crank butchered. Aluminum Rods.

#mulletlyfe.

I would like to see some flow bench work and some testing to verify that all this fancy head work is worth anything.

I would stay away from the maf if you want to make power, and run it SD, but if the cams are big enough you may have to go alpha N to get it to run good.

Why would you switch to an awd tranny and run all that stuff do you have ratios for this stuff. You will never hit 4th gear on a dirt track circumstance.

Also what's the benefit of running the evo3 intake.

fourgsixthree33 said:
Thanks for the reply's!

From talking with people that run these on dirt, the setup seems to be the complete opposite from the dirt modifieds and street stocks since this class is FWD. I originally reached out to these guys because I wanted to feature them in my DSM magazine. Then, the more I got to talking to them, I realized I was persuading myself to get into this.

I don't really want to talk about the setup in this thread though. I mean it's fine, I just don't want to get too far from the performance side of the discussion.

I definitely want to go SD though!

Heres a video for viewing pleasure. Looks so bad ass! (never thought I would watch this class run and actually be entertained, but hey, it's a damn DSM on dirt!!)

Midway 4-Cylinder Heats Jim Dunn Memorial 08-12-2012 - YouTube

Getting any thing together yet ?

fourgsixthree33 said:
I have done some searching about dirt oval 1G's, but most of the topics are about setup and handling. I am getting into this as I race dirt modifieds and street stocks. I am tired of seeing all these Honda's at the track with their VTECHHH and bringing home trophies every night in their FWD class.

I would like to state that this class does NOT allow forced induction and the car has to be FWD. Tracks have their own set rules about what you can and can't do with the engine. Most tracks require you to be under a certain compression (compression test).

A mostly stock NA 4G63 is going to be under-powered against the VTECH guys. I know how to make our Turbo 4G63's fast, but I am asking for your help on the NA 4G63. Here is what I am thinking.

Turbo ECU, turbo wiring harness, turbo MAF, turbo injectors, and a turbo injector resistor pack. Basically, I am looking for a turbo DSM shell and rebuild a NA 4G63.

Do I use a knock sensor? I would imagine I would need a knock sensor in order for the car to run half descent. BUT, with the turbo ECU, I will be getting a LOT more timing. Like, damn close to detonation. So with that said, would retarding the timing via the CAS be enough adjustment? Or could I run no knock sensor, thus causing the ECU to pull timing, and get the car to run half descent?

I would imagine DSMlink would be extremely useful. But would it solve all of my concerns?

Is there anything else I have not taken into consideration?

I kind of want to get a 2G turbo shell and drop in the NA 4G63. 2G's are wider, but they are also heavier. And I just think it would be really cool to have a NA 4G63 2G

My buddy just gave me a 2g shell that was running a 1g 16g turbo motor so its already got all the 6 bolt swap stuff done and some tuning crap im dropping my motor in it soon ill let ya know how it goes

dsmBear · Dec 4, 2013

I'm not nearly as technical as everyone but
Cams
Headers
Ecmlink
Exhaust
Intake(No real power)
Better ignition coils with wires

jrohner · Dec 4, 2013

MJcanada said:
Using big cams can help you get away with extra compression as they can lower cranking compression a good bit.

Every dirttrack I've heard of tests compression ratio, not PSI. First they do a displacement test, and then when they know the displacement, they use another tester that shows the compression ratio (usually reads about .5 lower than the real ratio).

Around here the FWD 4-cyl class is called Hornets, and ANYTHING they see that is not stock is illegal (or if anything stock is missing besides the cat). You can't even touch the air intake. Basically you are supposed to just remove the interior and glass, and add a rollcage.

mitchellling14 · Dec 5, 2013

jrohner said:
Every dirttrack I've heard of tests compression ratio, not PSI. First they do a displacement test, and then when they know the displacement, they use another tester that shows the compression ratio (usually reads about .5 lower than the real ratio).

Around here the FWD 4-cyl class is called Hornets, and ANYTHING they see that is not stock is illegal (or if anything stock is missing besides the cat). You can't even touch the air intake. Basically you are supposed to just remove the interior and glass, and add a rollcage.

Hornets is a very popular series that's well known, I do not know there rules. How ever at local tracks they just stick a compression gauge in and see what it says. They try to run stock rules at some tracks and some do not out of 4 tracks I have to race at locally all four have completely different rules LOL

its stupid. All the tracks allow atleast a lsd though 3 of them allow locked trannys. One track say bring a 2wd n/a 4cyl and your good that class is getting crazy. Actually that's the track that the video earlier in the thread was filmed that was the season before last when rules were a little different. Them guys are now running 400hp rwd 4cyl tubed chassis modifieds.

EGLTAWLN · Dec 5, 2013

nobody has mentioned a CYCLONE intake yet...
variable air velocity is a great n/a trick for performance.
mazda, toyota, yamaha, mitsubishi, etc have all used this type of technology with success.

mitchellling14 · Dec 7, 2013

EGLTAWLN said:
nobody has mentioned a CYCLONE intake yet...
variable air velocity is a great n/a trick for performance.
mazda, toyota, yamaha, mitsubishi, etc have all used this type of technology with success.

One reason for this is because it's so noticeable but I've thought about it before if I could get it to pass inspection. Now my question is that about the same as a galant vr4 intake thought about them to.

shortydtp · Dec 7, 2013

whats the compression limit?>

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Dirt Oval Racing: How to make a NA Fast?

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