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Clutch Adjustment issues (adjustment rod length)

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Mifff

10+ Year Contributor
30
1
Aug 16, 2012
Colorado Spr, Colorado
I purchased a 93 Talon about a year ago and I have been catching up on years of neglected maintenance. I have now come into a problem where the car is notchy to shift. I know there are a lot of threads on this and I have tried to read them all first.

This is what I have done so far:
1. I rebuilt both master and slave cylinders (OEM rebuilds)
2. I rebuilt the pedal assembly (brand new parts from JNZ)
3. I replaced the line from the master-> slave with a SS braided line.
4. I bled the system 2-3 times and removed the restrictor in the slave as well.
- includes pushing in the clutch and slaves as much as possible and then using a vacuum to try and flush out bubbles.
- I picked up a speed bleeder for the slave to eliminate as much user error as possible. :D

I did step on the spring in the slave cylinder accidentally when I was reassembling it. :ohdamn: It's slightly bent but I don't know if that really matters.

I cannot adjust the slave like in Jacks clutch adjustment video. Jack says that the slave will have fluid in it and it should be easy to push back into the cylinder. On my cylinder the slave always collapses fully when I release the clutch. I don't know if this means that the relief valve is staying open since no fluid stays in the slave or something else is the matter.

I started trying to adjust the clutch with the adjustment rod all the way in (pedal on the floor) and the clutch operates best with the rod almost out of the clevis. I saw this thread about putting a 2g adjustment rod in the master to get additional travel. I don't want to do this but i'm currently stumped on how to fix this one.

When I disassembled the old slave the slave rod was bent, so I replaced that with another from the junkyard of the same length, could the rod have also bent the fork? I would think not but i never rule anything out until I've replaced it or made sure it's within spec.

My observations are that it's hard to get into 1st, the rest of the gears aren't to bad but I can feel it hit (or what I assume to be) the synchro and stop for a fraction of a second before going in. I have replaced the shifter bushings with the Symborski ones. The ends going into the transmission are still rubber.

I will be going to the junkyard tomorrow to pick up a 2g adjustment rod because I would really like to drive this car a bit before it gets unbearably cold but if I could get some suggestions on what I might have missed I am open to suggestions as I would prefer to do it right over fast.
 
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Update: attached is a picture of the slave with the clutch all the way out. It seems a bit far to me. You an also see that that slave is fully compressed. Opinions?
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All transmission bolts tight? Including the rear one. The shift fork does look off center. You might do a clutch just to see what you inherited. Haha
 
If I replace everything..... it will be a BRAND NEW CAR! BRILLIANT PLAN! ROFL

So I need to resurface the flywheel, should I just grab a NAPA/AA clutch kit and call it a day for now? I will be replace trans/clutch/engine with new stuff at a later date and getting a fancy one now will mean the clutch will have worn differently since I will be switching to a 6-bolt flywheel right?

Also, anyone know where I can get plugs for the axles in the transmission? I just put new fluid in there and I heard you can just plug it and remove the trans, unless anyone thinks that's a bad idea.
 
The notchy shifting is probably caused by your clutch not completely disengaging, so your on the right track with the hydraulic system.


Bottom line, I think you have an adjustment issue at the master cylinder push rod. You should be able to go under the car and push the slave cylinder in, and watch it return the clutch fork to about the middle of the window: (don't add shims, the picture is for reference)
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If the push rod is sucking back into the slave as soon as the clutch is released, then you need to adjust the master cylinder push rod out more. You said the clutch works better with the rod almost out of the clevis, which would indicate you aren't getting enough travel from the master cylinder. I'd bet using the longer push would definitely work, but it is a band aid for a real issue. Can you post a pic of what your adjustment looks like now?
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Things you can check:

-Makes sure the master cylinder is bolted tightly against the firewall, with nothing wedged between the mounting surfaces. You don't want any more clearance there.

-Make sure the pedal assembly is also bolted in properly, and all the bolts are tight.

-Make, sure there's no air in the system, and it's bleed all the way. With the car running, pump the clutch pedal 4 or 5 times, and then try and put in in 1st gear. If it goes in easier than before, you probably have air in the system.


A worn clutch can be causing all your issues. How many miles on clutch? If unknown, R&R clutch.
Unless the clutch disc itself is sticking on the input shaft, I don't see how it would effect disengagement. Care to elaborate?


So I need to resurface the flywheel, should I just grab a NAPA/AA clutch kit and call it a day for now? I will be replace trans/clutch/engine with new stuff at a later date and getting a fancy one now will mean the clutch will have worn differently since I will be switching to a 6-bolt flywheel right?

Also, anyone know where I can get plugs for the axles in the transmission? I just put new fluid in there and I heard you can just plug it and remove the trans, unless anyone thinks that's a bad idea.
Why? have you confirmed there is an issue there? If you are getting your flywheel resurfaced, make sure the machine shop is capable of machining the flywheel with the proper step.

Unless you have some stubby cut off axle shafts, I'm not aware of any plugs you can put in the trans. It would be much easier if you got a clean oil container, and just drain the trans. Something like this, so you can drain it into and store at the same time. Make sure you are careful not to knock any dirt into the container when you are draining underneath the car.
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Here is the pic if the master adjustment rod
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The master is secure to the firewall and so is the pedal assembly
 
Man, you are really maxed out of adjustment. At this point, I think I would swap in the 2G rod, just to see if that corrects the issue. At least then, you will be able to narrow down where the problem lies. I think you just aren't getting the travel you need from the clutch master.

Do you think the system is completely purged of air?

Are you able to have someone work the clutch while you watch the slave under the car? If so, how much travel are you getting at the clutch fork?

Can you check to see is the clevis is the same size and length as the old one?
 
Man, you are really maxed out of adjustment. At this point, I think I would swap in the 2G rod, just to see if that corrects the issue. At least then, you will be able to narrow down where the problem lies. I think you just aren't getting the travel you need from the clutch master.
Went to the junkyard yesterday and I pulled 3 masters: 1 from a 3g which was shorter, one from a 2g n/t which was the same length and one from a 93 mighty max which was also the same length. I couldn't find a 2g turbo.

Do you think the system is completely purged of air?
Yep, I pushed in the clutch slightly and slowly and my buddy noticed instantly that the slave was moving. If there were bubbles in there I would think that they would act as a buffer and absorb some of the travel so it would not move right away. As I said I did try to remove every variable that could cause air to remain/get in the system by replacing everything. When I bled it the second time with the speed bleeder I wasn't getting anything but solid fluid, not even tiny bubbles.

Are you able to have someone work the clutch while you watch the slave under the car? If so, how much travel are you getting at the clutch fork?
I was working the clutch, but from memory when I was under there the last time fully extended it might have been in the same location as where the start of the fork was in your example pic earlier about shimming the fork. Perhaps an inch?

Can you check to see is the clevis is the same size and length as the old one?
The rebuild kit didn't come with a new clevis so that is the same one that was on the car before the rebuild.

We checked to see if me accidentally stepping on the spring for the slave had any ill effects. We speculated that if the spring got shorter through the bending of the metal that the hydraulic pressure might cause the slave to fully collapse when the clutch released. There is zero play from the fork to the slave rod meaning that the fork is completely pushing in the slave which I think eliminated the slave spring as a culprit. I will probably replace the spring in the slave just to eliminate that variable but i'm pretty sure that's not it.

I also checked to make sure the trans was bolted securely to the motor and it appears that it is. I really think I won't know any more until I get into the transmission. We are speculating that the clutch was installed wrong. I'm just not sure how you install one wrong but since I've never been in there I guess I will find out.
 
You can make the master cylinder adjustment rod as long as you want. Just find a bolt with the length you want and the correct diameter and thread pitch. Round off the head of the bolt with a grinder.

If you decide to do this, be extremely careful not to over adjust. You can push the plunger in the master cylinder too far and ruin it.

The last master cylinder I bought from Rock Auto had a longer than stock rod.

Also this is not the proper fix. But, I`ve used it myself and have seen it work for many others. Just don`t adjust too far.

The OEM rod is 65mm long. I would suggest 8mmx1.25x75mm long.

Are you sure there is no play in the clutch pedal assembly?
 
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Are you sure there is no play in the clutch pedal assembly?

As far as the assembly is concerned there is an inconsequential amount of play its nothing like it was before I replaced it though. The assembly bolts to the firewall, on one side is the brake booster and the other has the studs which hold the master in place. I have no wiggle in either so I believe its a safe bet that the assembly is as close as it can get.

The concern I keep coming back to is why is the clutch fork so far to the drivers side? Slightly leaning towards the drivers is optimal so what's could be going in in there that's letting the fork go so far?
 
As far as the assembly is concerned there is an inconsequential amount of play its nothing like it was before I replaced it though. The assembly bolts to the firewall, on one side is the brake booster and the other has the studs which hold the master in place. I have no wiggle in either so I believe its a safe bet that the assembly is as close as it can get.

The concern I keep coming back to is why is the clutch fork so far to the drivers side? Slightly leaning towards the drivers is optimal so what's could be going in in there that's letting the fork go so far?

Probably unlikely, but the clutch fork could be bent. Also, the pivot ball could be worn, or area where the pivot ball rides in the clutch fork could be worn as well. I would think these things would cause engagement issues though, not disengagement issues. From your picture, it looks to me like the clutch fork is sitting too far toward the passenger side.

If you lay under the car and push the clutch fork and push rod all the way in (toward the passenger side/into the slave cylinder) it should push in until the slave cylinder bottoms out. This should force all the fluid out of the slave and back into the clutch master. You should also be able to see the fluid level in the clutch master rise. At that point when you let go, it should spring back out on its own and return to its rest position. If you do everything I just said, does the system perform exactly as I've just described?

Another idea; Go under the car and push the slave push rod all the way in. After you do, pull the push rod completely out of the slave cylinder. (With the push rod removed, make sure nobody touches the clutch pedal) Grab the clutch fork (which should be limp) and work it slowly back and forth with your hand. Try and feel for anything strange like binding, grinding or looseness from the pivot ball...or the TOB binding on the input shaft sleeve. The fork should be fairly sturdy feeling (best I can describe it in words).
 
From your picture, it looks to me like the clutch fork is sitting too far toward the passenger side.

If you lay under the car and push the clutch fork and push rod all the way in (toward the passenger side/into the slave cylinder) it should push in until the slave cylinder bottoms out. This should force all the fluid out of the slave and back into the clutch master. You should also be able to see the fluid level in the clutch master rise. At that point when you let go, it should spring back out on its own and return to its rest position. If you do everything I just said, does the system perform exactly as I've just described?

Yes you are correct the fork is too far to the passengers side, the arm is too far to the drivers side.

I've performed this test already when I was trying to set the hydraulic system up and I can say without a doubt it failed. The slave bottomed out and I couldn't push it in any more. There was no travel left in the slave.

If the hydraulic system was set up wrong I would think that there would be some play in the fork arm and the slave rod would be floating. Since it's not wiggling I have the believe that the fork is exerting some pressure on the slave greater than the pressure needed to retain fluid in the slave.

That also indicates to me that the self adjusting part of the clutch is working (its not far enough out yet to cut it off and prevent fluid from draining back into the reservoir).
 
Sorry man, I guess I'm still not quite understanding what you are saying. So, can you push the slave rod in by hand buy pushing on the clutch fork? And if so, does it return to its rest position when you let it go?

Sorry to be repetitive, but I really want to help you figure this out.
 
Went to the junkyard yesterday and I pulled 3 masters: 1 from a 3g which was shorter, one from a 2g n/t which was the same length and one from a 93 mighty max which was also the same length. I couldn't find a 2g turbo.


Why don't you just spend the 48 bucks and get the one I put in the write up? Seems the amount of time and money invested would have been worth it already. If that doesn't fix the problem then you'll more than likely be pulling the tranny. Hey if it doesn't work take it out, put it back in, and return it to the store. :thumb:
 
When you first start to depress the clutch pedal, does the adjustment rod immediately start to move? If you can depress the pedal any at all without the rod moving, the assembly is worn. To my knowledge, the pedal assembly must be removed to be repaired properly.

If the assembly is not repaired properly, it can change the geometry ever so slightly causing problems. I have seen times when longer adjustment rod helps with this.

If you can rule out the pedal assembly, look to the clutch fork, pivot ball area. Also the OEM master and slave cylinders are more reliable.
 
I advise against using longer slave rods or master rods, it's just a band-aid solution. You need to tear into your clutch assembly/release mechanism and figure out what is wrong. Your master cylinder rod should NOT be adjusted that far out. My guess is the previous owner replaced the clutch and the step height is wrong, the fork is bent, or the pivot ball is worn out. Possibly all three.
 
I advise against using longer slave rods or master rods, it's just a band-aid solution. You need to tear into your clutch assembly/release mechanism and figure out what is wrong. Your master cylinder rod should NOT be adjusted that far out. My guess is the previous owner replaced the clutch and the step height is wrong, the fork is bent, or the pivot ball is worn out. Possibly all three.

Speaking from MY experience everything was gone threw flywheel and all where brand new. OEM master and slave such and such and there was just on fixing the problem with the aftermarket parts. I wouldn't call it a band-aid in MY situation when I know we (multiple people) couldn't find the problem. It was simply out of adjustment. No problems from the setup since. Even had people inbox me stating the same. Sometimes you have to do what works. Beats spending tons of money to find you can't find whats causing the problem which I did then spend 48 bucks and all is perfect.
 
I advise against using longer slave rods or master rods, it's just a band-aid solution. You need to tear into your clutch assembly/release mechanism and figure out what is wrong. Your master cylinder rod should NOT be adjusted that far out. My guess is the previous owner replaced the clutch and the step height is wrong, the fork is bent, or the pivot ball is worn out. Possibly all three.

I would agree. I feel like if you get a longer rod you may risk damaging the master cylinder since it was built for a specific length rod.
 
Speaking from MY experience everything was gone threw flywheel and all where brand new. OEM master and slave such and such and there was just on fixing the problem with the aftermarket parts. I wouldn't call it a band-aid in MY situation when I know we (multiple people) couldn't find the problem. It was simply out of adjustment. No problems from the setup since. Even had people inbox me stating the same. Sometimes you have to do what works. Beats spending tons of money to find you can't find whats causing the problem which I did then spend 48 bucks and all is perfect.

I can't speak for your situation as I don't know anything about it, however, if EVERYTHING is in spec, a longer rod shouldn't be needed. If you go to a longer rod, something, somewhere, is out of spec. Flywheel, clutch pressure plate, disk thickness etc.
 
I would agree. I feel like if you get a longer rod you may risk damaging the master cylinder since it was built for a specific length rod.

Ever seen the inside of a master cylinder? What is there to damage? I did advise in my thread to only do this if you can't solve the proper way, but for ME the proper way didn't work.

if EVERYTHING is in spec, a longer rod shouldn't be needed. If you go to a longer rod, something, somewhere, is out of spec. Flywheel, clutch pressure plate, disk thickness etc.

I agree, EVERTHING and all the above you listed was checked. And the OP might have to go threw the same. Just saying what fix MY problem and alot of 1G guys that have the same problem.
 
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Sorry man, I guess I'm still not quite understanding what you are saying. So, can you push the slave rod in by hand buy pushing on the clutch fork? And if so, does it return to its rest position when you let it go?

Sorry to be repetitive, but I really want to help you figure this out.

No problem! I appreciate everyone throwing out suggestions and where I am not being clear will elaborate.

To answer your question: No I cannot push the slave rod in and the fork does not return to the resting position when let go.

From the picture you linked earlier that shows when you need to shim the pivot let's say that the fork in that position is "at rest". My forks "at rest" position is shifted over to here:
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If I were to remove the slave the fork would sit in the same place. With the slave installed the fork arm is now pushing against the slave rod so it can get to "at rest". The fork is squeezing the fluid from the slave, flattening it. When I try to adjust it I cannot push the slave rod in because the fork is doing that already.

Since the pivot ball of the fork is on the transmission the one only way to get the fork arm that far over is one of two possibilities:
1. The pivot has been shimmed already
2. The pressure plate is pushing on the clutch fork.

I won't comment on step height as I don't know enough on that just yet.

If the transmission were not properly bolted to the motor the fork would have some play and be "at rest" in a position that would require more shims because it's having to reach to make context with the pressure plate.

Let's say that I completely rebuilt the assembly wrong, I left out bits in the rebuild and that I didn't even bother to bleed the system. None of these things has any effect on the position of the clutch fork as I see it. These would lead to the slave making weak or no contact at all with the clutch fork. I have the opposite issue.

This is the problem as I understand it and with my understanding of this vehicle.

Why don't you just spend the 48 bucks and get the one I put in the write up? Seems the amount of time and money invested would have been worth it already. If that doesn't fix the problem then you'll more than likely be pulling the tranny. Hey if it doesn't work take it out, put it back in, and return it to the store. :thumb:


Thanks for the write up on that! It was really helpful. I didn't spend the money because I incorrectly thought that all 2g have the same rod length. By the end of it I had decided that while you did provide a solution I should exhaust all other possibilities first rather than try to solve a problem by adjusting another variable.
 
I started trying to adjust the clutch with the adjustment rod all the way in (pedal on the floor) and the clutch operates best with the rod almost out of the clevis.

When I disassembled the old slave the slave rod was bent, so I replaced that with another from the junkyard of the same length, could the rod have also bent the fork?

The first line implies that if the master cylinder rod was just a little longer it would work. That`s a $2 fix. It`s the exact thing that happens when the pedal assembly is not right. That`s why I asked if there was play. I`ve seen 1g pedal assemblies welded wrong absolutely requiring a longer rod.

The second line makes me think there was a mishap.

Let us know how you resolve this.
 
The first line implies that if the master cylinder rod was just a little longer it would work. That`s a $2 fix. It`s the exact thing that happens when the pedal assembly is not right. That`s why I asked if there was play. I`ve seen 1g pedal assemblies welded wrong absolutely requiring a longer rod.

The second line makes me think there was a mishap.

Let us know how you resolve this.

If it was a little longer sure and I might end up doing that. But I'm currently more interested in why it needs to be longer at all.

Could there also not be a problem where the pivot ball has been over shimmed and after the entire travel of the slave you still haven't managed to disengage the clutch? This would require the adjustment rod to be all the way out and maybe even need a longer rod to get to the point of disengagement. In fact this problem would mimic a mis-adjusted assembly except for the fact that the clutch fork is way off center.

I am up for taking as many pictures of my pedal assembly as you guys would like to verify correct installation so we can eliminate that as a factor in this.

The bent slave rod was from the previous owner. It was only a 5 degree bend near where the boot goes but it certainly hints that the problem might have existed before I got the car.

Okay here are pics of the assembly and fork.

If any girl were to ask me my favorite position I would have to say upside down in the talon under the steering wheel.

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If any girl were to ask me my favorite position I would have to say upside down in the talon under the steering wheel.

haha I was in that position just yesterday myself and at the age of 61, it ain`t easy getting back up:(

When I ask about play, I`m not talking about mounting points. I`m talking about getting in your favorite position, move the clutch pedal with one hand, while watching the clutch rod. The rod should start to move as soon as the clutch pedal starts to move.

You may very well have something wrong with the clutch or fork or TOB. I`m thinking you`ll have to drop the trans to find out.
 
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