Oranges were too close to apples in this case.

finnie3d said:

Yes there is. And it's called Boost, and Traction,

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While boost is good, its not as good as the smooth power curve of displacement. Most all the pro-level drifters have swapped LS engines into their Nissans. Few DSMer are going to have anti-lag capability. Predictability is confidence.

Traction hardly matters on dry track. Corvettes come w/ tires to put the power down.

In motorsports, it does matter what you've done before. Experience is more than driving skill; its car setup, tire selection, and how to douse trophy girls in champagne. The important stuff.

finnie3d said:

promo and marketing for Mitsubishi Engineering, = more unity for the Mitsubishi community so the brand does NOT disappear, but regains footing and momentum in the market at large.

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Hardly true. Racing something no longer available off the showroom floor does little to no good for manufacturer. And then, how many people do you expect are going to be exposed to your event? And what will happen if DSM loses?

finnie3d said:

Mitsubishi engineering has always been very potent, but because of the direction of the parent company, the factory never took the time to fully develop what they had.

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Not true.

1998 World Champion factory team.


Regarding your comment about Mitstu Motors North America, its just you missed the boat. 10-20 years ago, our DSMs were among the best choice along w/ Audi Quattro for rallyracing in N America. It was and is where our cars shine.

Not saying not to do it, or that I wouldn't come support it; just saying. Tell us more about the "how do we do this?". What is your plan to be competitive ?

Guys guys guys, let's stop raining on his parade. The event will be fun if he can pull it off. If the DSM folks get their egos dented a bit, so be it. Yes he may have rose colored glasses on and be a bit inexperienced in actual racing (or not, it's hard to say but it doesn't matter to me much), but regardless anyone who wants to take on organizing a track event where I can see DSMs has my support, and he should have yours too

I just wanna see stuff go fast.

How many vettes you want me to pass?
Limerock 2007 Video by cioc | Photobucket

I've killed many a vette in my day but in all seriousness they are not easy. Back in 2007-2009 I was very competitive with them. Now, not so much. I don't know if they got faster or I got slower but the tides have surely changed. My car is getting a new heart. "IF" the build goes well...I will be there. If there are any ZR1's with good drivers, it aint gonna happen.

I think this is a cool idea for sure. I too have been out on track with Vettes, some superstars, some not. I have not been to VIR but that track does seem to favor the higher powered cars.

I think it will be fun for sure. Wish I had a car that could compete, but, at this point, I don't.

Hope it's a good turnout and success!

You are going to get smoked. Really badly.

Would be cool to see some decent Mitsu road racers show up. TSiAWD666 what would it take for you to get a lap time faster than 3:29.30?

Would be nice just to have an Eclipse on the list haha. I have never even seen a race at that track so I don't even know quite how fast that even is...

Edit: Are we talking about the north course, south course or full course here?

Edit Edit: After watching a bunch of VIR full course laps on YouTube I don't think that page is right with the lap times. Most people out there just having a good time are getting around 2:40's to 3:00's a lap... unless it's not really the full course (even though they say it is...)

AngelOfPassion said:

Would be cool to see some decent Mitsu road racers show up. TSiAWD666 what would it take for you to get a lap time faster than 3:29.30?

Would be nice just to have an Eclipse on the list haha. I have never even seen a race at that track so I don't even know quite how fast that even is...

Edit: Are we talking about the north course, south course or full course here?

Edit Edit: After watching a bunch of VIR full course laps on YouTube I don't think that page is right with the lap times. Most people out there just having a good time are getting around 2:40's to 3:00's a lap... unless it's not really the full course (even though they say it is...)

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Those lap times on fastestlaps.com are for the Grand East configuration. Grand East is much more winding and is 4.2 miles compared to Full's 3.2 miles. I suspect any lap times of people just having a good time in the 2:40 range were actually on the Full configuration.

I would guess I would do under three minutes on Grand East though, but how far under I can't say. I haven't driven Grand East in six years because I don't really like it. Just as you get to rocking on the back straight you slam on your brakes and have to do a 180 and go through a boring downhill and then uphill section.

Grand East probably would help us versus Full overall as it cuts out one of the two big straights where big power comes into play.

Dang, all kinds of Chebbies entering the time trial I plan to do. 3 Vettes, a Camaro & a Caddie CTS-V and only 1 import entered so far.

After event edit: Corvette set FTD

Ok, so on classing: (In an effort to keep it simple...)

NASA's Performance Touring Category has a points system that makes competition available to a wide range of vehicles, years and mod levels. Each vehicle has a base class in OE form. Each mod you make to the vehicle is assigned a certain number of points. Tally up the total mod points and the more points you add, the higher class you run in. Mod Categories include:

Tires
Weight Reduction
Engine
Drivetrain
Suspension
Brakes/Chassis
Aerodynamics
and
Roll Cages

So naturally an OE car with only slicks, wouldn't run a tube-frame, full swap car.

This should allow a fun and competitive day for drivers of all makes and models, imo. But what do you all think? (Experienced racers first please... Thanks)

*Keep In Mind* Every Mitsubishi that enters the race does not have to be faster than Corvette. I issued that challenge very personally, under the premise that the same amount of retail sticker price spent to make only one ZR1 fast (despite the millions spent on development) is enough to make three Mitsubishi's fast. That amounts to roughly $40,000 per vehicle. (Imagine if you spent $40K on your DSM) This diffuses the OE v. Mod argument because we're acting as if these three came from the factory with the upgrades they will have - the way they could have if MMNA took more time with THESE vehicles (not just the EVO). I will use as many OE parts as humanly possible, and prudent throughout the build because I believe in the power of MHI. (You don't have to pile make up on a natural beauty - just particular enhancements).

This forms the "Main Event Match", if you will, of the day. After that, as long as like-minded racers come together and have an awesome day competing on track and enjoying what we all love - fast cars, the event is a success in my book.

I don't have personal experience with the points system since I went from HPDE and started right away in TTU (unlimited Time Trial class). I would think using the mod points system is going to be quite difficult and annoying for you to police unless you have some experts across the field. As such, perhaps you might consider classing similar to what TT2 and up do, which is use a slightly weighted weight/hp ratio for classing. This would be much easier to manage as people just have to pony up dyno sheets. Basically you have ratios for various classes, and there are only a small number of modifiers (total weight, AWD, and tire size to name a few). Really is a hell of a lot simpler than the damned points stuff for lower classes (which is why I started in TTU, I didn't want to deal with that crap).

TSiAWD666 said:

I don't have personal experience with the points system since I went from HPDE and started right away in TTU (unlimited Time Trial class). I would think using the mod points system is going to be quite difficult and annoying for you to police unless you have some experts across the field. As such, perhaps you might consider classing similar to what TT2 and up do, which is use a slightly weighted weight/hp ratio for classing. This would be much easier to manage as people just have to pony up dyno sheets. Basically you have ratios for various classes, and there are only a small number of modifiers (total weight, AWD, and tire size to name a few). Really is a hell of a lot simpler than the damned points stuff for lower classes (which is why I started in TTU, I didn't want to deal with that crap).

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Ok. I'll pull out the CCR and read up...

LandoAWD said:

There really isn't a replacement for displacement,

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The people who say these kinds of things don't appreciate or understand the engineering and design behind imports... so why again are you on a DSM forum still with a hyundai? Maybe you should have invested in some displacement rather than a "replacement."

I think you could probably do this man, but you will need some properly setup mitsu's in both the handling and power department.

Tell that age-old excuse to people who get crushed by imports like rx7's, skylines, supras, evos, and DSMs for example in all racing disciplines...

When a 3.0L skyline or a 1.3L (maybe more if some rotors are added) spank a 5-6L v8, what do you say to that? Its just sad that I have to read this crap on our own DSM (import) forum.

Its true, in a straight line displacement wins. Sure, a very modified turbo import can be built faster, but anyone can slap a turbo or supercharge a larger displacement engine to beat that.

Since you mentioned the Skyline, a Vette beat ours and everyone else at the last time trial I was at on a twisty course.

I definitely would like to see cyber evo and sierra sierra evo on that track, and then lets see if displacement really matters. In Australia sierra sierra trap 186mph on the straight away mulike VIR configuration.

DSMReviver said:

I definitely would like to see cyber evo and sierra sierra evo on that track, and then lets see if displacement really matters. In Australia sierra sierra trap 186mph on the straight away mulike VIR configuration.

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The cyber evo is a mind ####.

Twinturbo120 said:

The cyber evo is a mind ####.

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Yup, and on that same Australian track, despite being down on hp with shitty IHI apexi turbo, cyber evo still won

And a lap record

Awd is a good shitzz, keep the weight down and boost the f out of it and let it do the turn for you. if you have an evo and AYC, reprogram it and let it do the turns for you

For some reason japanese across the pond can make a car go aroundthe track much fater with horsepower we Americans will laugh at. well except sierra sierra they came close to matching cyber's performance. Good times back then

TSiAWD666 said:

Those lap times on fastestlaps.com are for the Grand East configuration. Grand East is much more winding and is 4.2 miles compared to Full's 3.2 miles. I suspect any lap times of people just having a good time in the 2:40 range were actually on the Full configuration.

I would guess I would do under three minutes on Grand East though, but how far under I can't say. I haven't driven Grand East in six years because I don't really like it. Just as you get to rocking on the back straight you slam on your brakes and have to do a 180 and go through a boring downhill and then uphill section.

Grand East probably would help us versus Full overall as it cuts out one of the two big straights where big power comes into play.

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I've been looking at track maps and times. I'm feeling like the North Course will be enough for this first event. it's 2.25 miles so hopefully we're not spending three months salary on fuel and tires for one weekend. It's basically all turns and elevation changes - except the front straight of course. So it helps to level the playing field a bit and also eliminates Corvette's "back straight advantage". According to this video I found on the tube, it will still be challenging, but that's not new info. And the telemetry gives us valuable intel about what we're up against so we can plan for it.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Let's Raise The Bar!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc5cXCQO414]Brandon Driving a Corvette ZR1 @ VIR - YouTube[/ame]

Yeah North might be a bit better if you're still looking to try to stack things in our favor. I also find that boring because it cuts out the uphill esses which are the best part of the track.

I would stop worrying about trying to gain an advantage with track layout selection and get back to thinking about just how you're going to get this off the ground. I would get in touch with Jon Felton with NASA ([email protected]) and start a conversation about this. Another benefit to working with them or another established organization, aside from what I've mentioned in earlier posts, is trust. I don't yet know who you are and from your questions/comments I don't suspect you have much on-track experience (if you do, please don't be offended, we don't know each other!), so I don't expect you'll have much of a reputation with the racing community, yet you'll have to be asking folks to pony up a couple hundred dollars minimum plus work towards making and attending your event (which if you don't realize, it's a LOT of work preparing for a race day). Partnering with an established org will help people take this seriously and more likely increase attendance.

TSiAWD666 said:

Yeah North might be a bit better if you're still looking to try to stack things in our favor. I also find that boring because it cuts out the uphill esses which are the best part of the track.

I would stop worrying about trying to gain an advantage with track layout selection and get back to thinking about just how you're going to get this off the ground. I would get in touch with Jon Felton with NASA ([email protected]) and start a conversation about this. Another benefit to working with them or another established organization, aside from what I've mentioned in earlier posts, is trust. I don't yet know who you are and from your questions/comments I don't suspect you have much on-track experience (if you do, please don't be offended, we don't know each other!), so I don't expect you'll have much of a reputation with the racing community, yet you'll have to be asking folks to pony up a couple hundred dollars minimum plus work towards making and attending your event (which if you don't realize, it's a LOT of work preparing for a race day). Partnering with an established org will help people take this seriously and more likely increase attendance.

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Email Sent.

TSI You're correct. I'm a desk racer so far (I don't count the time on the dragstrip since we're talking about the circuit). I've battled up and down income and varying life circumstances to keep my passion for racing alive. I have a college degree and some management experience, a bass guitar I play well and some international touring experience, and right now I'm a full-time caregiver at home for my elderly father. So I have plenty of time to talk trash online. None of that amounts to anything on race day if the details are not in place. So, I appreciate your support and willingness to share your experience and connections for the good of the event and the the good of the board and DSM Community.

To The Board: I don't claim to know everything, and I guess "facts" change at 100+ MPH and the limit of your tires. I hope to find out for myself as soon as possible. Thank you all for checking out this thread. I'm working hard to go from dream to reality in a way that is fun, safe, affordable and competitive for all involved.

Oh, and btw, If i've bitten off more than I can chew here (and honestly, it's kind of starting to seem that way) I'm a grown man. I can admit that and take a different tack. I'll never stop, but I'll definitely reconsider my approach if that's what's realistically called for.

Event at a later date would give me more time to develop the cars and myself for (as I study the ZR1 even more) quite an uphill battle... It's tough trying to be the first one to do something.

Checking out the TT results from July TSI... You've actually been the closest. Only about 12 secs off the pace of the 1st Place Overall Z06, Just edging out the 3.8L 911 RSR - #Impressive! Is that the same video where you said your engine was missing and you felt your "between runs tune" was too aggressive? If so, you're already right on their "6". What made you so successful that day?

Vinny is with you finnie3d! Our cars aren't called V8 eaters for nothing!!!!!!!!!!!! "It's not how you stand by your car, it's how you drive your car" -JaRul.

Mike Skeen's 1:54.6 time in the C6 Z06 was from 2012's UTCC. The video you're talking about where I run a 2:09.5 is from this year, the weekend of the 2013 UTCC (I ran a 2:11.6 during the UTCC due mainly to my cracked intake manifold) but during the NASA time trials afterwards. Yes, the car's tune was terrible and the car felt pretty slow, I'd say it had to be like 320whp or something where max I should be 420+.

I wouldn't say I was successful that day or any day, yet, but I appreciate your sentiment. Car is still teething as well as evolving (which makes for more teething!). If anything I was very disappointed in the weekend as I think with my current bad driving the car could have still pulled a 2:07. It's all bench racing until I actually do it though.

What it took to get me to a 2:07 alone would take an extremely long time to write up. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant but I think if you look at just a picture of my car you can see it's a lot and understand why I might be reluctant to just spell it all out. It takes tons of money, tons of hard work, and tons of time. I'd say the biggest contributors are: aero, big honking 315-wide r-compounds, suspension parts and setup, and a torquey 2.3l stroker (I'm sure a V8 guy would die laughing at me calling my engine torquey haha). Have I spent less than the cost of a C6 Z06 in money alone? Probably? I dunno. I'm sure I spent overall less than the particular Z06 Skeen drove, but meh I don't feel like that's anything special. Given the money I might one day just pick up a Z06 for a track car if I can get over my AWD addiction/crutch

Assuming the 2:07 is my current base time on that track, to get close to the Mike Skeen's time from 2012 I would need the following:
- more hp. Even at peak operating hp my car is too slow for that z06. If I upgrade my turbo to a hta3582r or a efr7670 that should get me around 600whp, and I would guesstimate that's at least 4-5 seconds on VIR full with its two long straights.
- stiffer springs and revalved shocks. I need much stiffer for the aero, probably around 60% stiffer. I think this is 0.5-1 second but I might be way off.
- better driving. Skeen's a pro driver, and I'm a terrible novice I think if Skeen jumped in my car he'd shave 3-4 seconds off easily.
- stickier tires. I was running, and still run, Nitto NT01 which are I'd say mid-range as far as traction in r-compound tires. Skeen was running Hoosier A6 which are the stickiest DOT r-compounds, good for I hear up to 2 seconds compared to something like the NT01 on VIR full but don't take my word for it.
- stiffer chassis. I actually don't have a rollcage yet (yes, I'm a gambling idiot). I also have stock suspension bushings everywhere. I have no idea how this might help in decreasing the time honestly. Might help me with consistency.
- weight loss. Skeen + his z06 were definitely lighter than my car as he's a bean pole and I'm sure they removed some non-essentials (though they claimed it had a sterea), and no doubt better weight distribution (mine is 62.5% front currently). I have lots to lose like a/c, stereo, passenger seat/harness, steel doors and hatch, glass, all that could be yanked. I might guess if we just dropped front weight to match his driving weight we might shave .5 off our time, maybe more? No idea, just guessing here.

Assuming my estimates are accurate and we take the max benefit that's 2:07 minus 5+1+4+2+.5, which is 12.5 seconds, putting me at a 1:54.5. I'd just barely beat him.

That's quite a bit for me to just match him and the car he drove and I already have more "race" car modifications than 99.9% of the people on this forum. So understand when us road track guys tell you that we're fighting an uphill battle against the Corvettes we mean it. Those damned things are very close to race cars out of the box, basically minus the r-compounds/slicks. Which is fine... I personally don't care if we win or lose and would go just to see DSMs and be on a track

So at the upper end of time trial racing I think we can at most try to match them (and only a time trial, never in a long race as we'd overheat or have some other failure where they would just keep on going). However I want to say we, DSMs that is, do have a much better chance at the lower weight/hp ratios with street tires probably thanks mostly to having awd (and thus more traction). I offer this point in support of this fact: When I was still using a 16g at around 260whp I was easily passing C4/C5 vettes when we all had street tires and they were unmodified. Wasn't pulling on them in the straights, I was catching them in the turns. Also, the fastest C5 Z06 at the 2012 UTCC ran a 2:10.6, which I'm already faster than with I'm sure less hp and more weight.

Man I just blabbed a lot... what were we talking about again?

Edit - Here's a video of Skeen in the vette: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYngKnDAtWo[/ame]
In the comments you can see he says the whp is 550 and the weight is 3200lbs (not sure if that's with him in it or not).

Edit #2 - looking at his video and comparing to my video he is 3 seconds faster on the front straight, and 3 seconds faster on the back straight. 6 seconds. So seems my hp benefit guesstimates weren't so far off Of course this is discounting his hp benefit elsewhere on the track like the mini straight before the esses, so he might actually have a 7 second boost from hp alone.

Edit #3 - He was on Pirelli Slicks, NOT Hoosier A6 tires as I was told by who knows. Yeesh, even bigger advantage there...

^^^ Wow. Everything you just said is exactly what makes me believe that, with more than just my car or your car, DSM/Mitsubishi-Powered Vehicles have plenty of potential to battle the Vettes on the road course. I remember seeing a DOHC, Dry-Sump, 2.6L Starion Motor (destroked to 2.3L and long since abandoned), but why abandoned? That motor sounds heavenly! When everyone in our community (and MMNA) is as creative and committed as you and I to getting all of the potential out of our platforms, they will perform FAR above the current general expectation. You've proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. (Also the 650WHP Chech Hill Climb Monster, ) You called out all of the key issues that many overlook when building DSM's - weight distribution, power/weight ratio, heat management, reliability/tune, overall balance, traction/tire compound, suspension parts and setup, and driver ability.

Plus I keep thinking/reading/watching/studying togue racers, who don't always have high HP numbers, but still go wicked quick through the turns because of attention to detail and balance. Then, if big power goes on top of that, you get legendary import performance. That's what I want... #Legendary. I won't be satisfied with anything less - no matter how long it takes.

Neither you nor I are the first to bench race DSM's. We're not the first to read books about road racing. What has taken so long for our community to catch on and participate? Cost? Somebody said the computers have just caught up with the hard parts? Lack of factory support? (Just curious)

With that said, I understand everything you've said here and respect your AWD addiction/crutch. Mine is Mitsu-based as a whole. More than just go fast, I want to make a statement and test the limits of various powertrain setups. I feel like you - even if I lose, but the vehicles are built well and make a good showing for our group and for what they are:

FWD Turbo Coupe - (also planning the 2.3L Stroker setup w/ ELHShafts)
RWD S/C Pickup - (planning to swap in a Mitsu V6 and strap an Eaton to it)
Big Surprise Planned for the Sedan - (I'm sure you'll like it though)

and DSM's and Mitsu-Powered Vehicles come together and have a great day = #MissionAccomplished. Whatever we need to fix, we can do so for the next year's event.

*****

Vinny! I appreciate the support bro. I definitely need a team to pull this off. No way I can do it alone, so thanks!