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600hp daily turbo setup help

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<<<< 609 awhp daily driven car. 40 psi, I drive 40 miles to track, run 5-6 times and drive home, every weekend. I drive the car to work everyday, gets 30 mpg highway, 93 octane. Just have to know what your doing and always be checking the car! Check the oils/fluids all the time, especially the trans :thumb: Get JusMX141 to start building you a holset, you will love that turbo, I love mine :)

Your the guy i wanted to talk to, LOL. Who does your tuning?
 
Almost all of the construction equipment we have up at my work uses Holset's on the turbo diesels, Ive seen 35's and H1E's take a lot of shit from idiots thrashing the equipment. They are good reliable turbo's.
 
Im definitely going to be running a hx-40 in a bep .70 a/r. Holsets seem to be the way to go.:hellyeah:
 
Look at gt35 .9x a/r housing and look at gt42 .9x housing, maybe same number but two different housings, one is noticeably larger then the other. If what your saying was 100% true then they would be making the same housing whether it was for gt35 or gt42
I agree totally- the housing must grow in order for the a/r to truly stay equal when the wheel and inlet flange both grow....but how does this apply to one entire series of housing cut for different turbine wheels?

Take, for example, the FP bolt-on housing which has an advertised a/r of .69....it's advertised as the same a/r whether it's used on a T31, 30R, or 35R turbine. Or a .82 T3 Garrett housing....it's the same housing whether it's cut for a T31, T350, or GT35 turbine. Same goes for PTE- you're getting the same .82 T3 housing whether you buy a 6262 or 6766.

A/R is a static way to classify a series of housing no matter what wheel is inside it....that's why the a/r spec is stamped on the housing and not the wheel. As long as the inlet's throat diameter (area) and physical scroll size (radius) stays the same, the housing itself can give two shits as to what wheel is inside it. ;)

This is no different than comparing wheel trims- sure a T25 compressor has the same trim as a T04E60, but you're comparing Apples to PC's on the overall scheme of things. :D
 
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Bracing myself, this is going to take a while :)

Justin you're right but that's not what I'm talking about. Yes the housing does not change regardless of what wheel you put in it but what will change is how that housing will function with that wheel. Just like I took HX40 19cm housing and machined it to work for the HX52, yes its still stamped 19cm on it but it does not function like a 19cm that originally would have been made for HX52. Now if I was to take that 16cm of a HX52 and some how add material to it and make it fit the HX40 it will not function on the HX40 like a 16cm that originally was made for HX40, do you see what I'm saying.

I said this in my previous posts, if I was to machine .55 housing to fit the HX52 yes its still going to be .55 housing but its not going to function on the HX52 like that .55 housing would on a HX35 or a 40.

Everything has its limitations. You can take the same housing and go up and down in wheel size to a certain extent but after a certain point you have to use a bigger housing even if the same number is stamped on the side of it, like HX40 16cm and HX52 16cm. There is a reason why holset made two different housings for those two turbos.

HX52 is used on a 12.1L Volvo diesel engine, the housing that is used on that turbo does not come with an internal wastegate like a lot of the other turbos do. There is a reason for that. Diesel engines function different then gas engines and I know you know that. They don't use throttle bodies, rpm is controlled by fuel. More fuel more rpm, more rpm more exhaust flow, more exhaust flow more boost. So the smart people at Volvo crunched all these numbers and figured, for an engine like 12.1L it will take X amount of fuel to turn it 2500 rpms let's say. At that rpm this engine will produce X amount of exhaust flow so it will require 16cm2 housing to maintain X amount of boost at 2500 rpms. Now if they said we want that turbo to be more responsive they would have used a smaller housing like the HX40 19cm2 but I'm sure the number on the side of it would not say 19 but more like 14 and I'm sure there would be an internal wastegate on it. I've seen a 19cm2 off a HX50 and its not small :)

There also is another reason why they used such a large housing on the HX52. It's to reduce drive pressure, which reduces the egts, which extends the life of a turbo. Those turbos will run 500,000+ miles almost always in boost.

I'm not a turbo wizard and don't consider myself one but I know what I've seen. Not counting the different turbos I've ran on my car I tested 5 different housings with my HX40. Bep .55 bolt on, bep t3 .70, holset t3 16cm2, holset t4 19cm2 and garrett t4 .84 divided. My pos laptop crashed so I lost all my old logs. I can't remember all the drive pressure numbers now but I know bep .55 had the highest drive pressure, my 3 bar GM map sensor was maxed out well before the red line. Garrett .84 was second highest, then it was bep .70 (ported), then holset 16cm2 and the lowest numbers I got were with holset 19cm2.

Of all those housings, I've ran bep .70 the longest, the rest were more for test purposes. When I switched from bep .70 to holset t3 16cm2 I noticed right away that spool got slower which I expected. What I didn't know was how it would function in the top end. I hit the rev limiter (8750rpms) few times before I got used to it :) the usual peak power I felt at 8000 rpms was not there anymore it was like at 8400 rpms. I live 200 miles from the closest awd dyno so unfortunately couldn't test the actual HP gains.

Both bep .70 and holset 16cm2 had lower drive pressure then boost on spool up but followed a similar incline as boost. As the car hit full boost and wastegate opened the drive pressure steep incline leveled off to more of a gradual rise as rpms get higher.

Garrett .84 and holset 19cm2 I ran with my home made quick spool valve. My spool valve starts to open at about 18 psi and is fully open by about 28 psi. As boost comes on and the valve is still closed the exhaust is forced through only half of the housing. On garrett .84 the drive pressure at 17 psi of boost was higher before the valve started to open. It was like 4 psi higher. I didn't like that so I took it off the car and ported the shit out of it at the bottom of the funnel inside the primary scroll. That dropped the drive pressure to about 2psi higher then boost at 17psi. Holset 19cm2 drive pressure was right about the same as boost pressure until the spool valve started to open at 18 psi. With spool valve the drive pressure had kind of 2 stages. One was when spool valve started to open and the other when wastegate opened. As boost came up and the spool valve started to open the drive pressure dropped its rapid incline to a more gradual incline until the wastegate opened and then the drive pressure become a steady rise as rpms get higher.

Now having said all that. Let's say the spool valve never opened, simulating a situation of a smaller housing. If with garrett .84 at 17 psi of boost I was getting 19 psi of drive pressure at about 4300 rpms and as boost/drive pressure continued their climb till the wastegate opened, think about the drive pressure you would get at 8000 rpms :)

I don't think its necessary to test this theory on every single brand of turbos to know how a different housing will work on a different turbo, you can pretty much guess. Of course everything plays a little roll in how it will work. Is it a 12 blade wheel or is it 10, is it clipped or not, how tall is the wheel, how much pitch the blades have, what is the trim. I don't just look at the results of my own tests, I look at other cars that other people have built.

Personally I have nothing against Fp or their turbos, but when I look at cars that run Fp bolt on turbos I see what I see. Sure they make a lot of power but in a certain rpm range. For example and evo that is fully built, pistons, rods, cams, intake manifold, basically built to make power to at least 8000+ rpms. When I look at the dyno sheep and I see a HP drop after 7000-7200 rpms. Another thing I see is how fast it builds boost which is a plus for that turbo, but also I see how it does not hold boost. It may start out at 40 psi but by 8000 rpms its more like 34-35 and all that is done with a housing that's larger then the dsm 8cm. It makes me wonder what could be the cause of that. I know that Fp black has a similar size compressor wheel as HX40 so it shouldn't have any problem keeping 40 psi to 8000 rpms, something else is holding it back. My guess its the smaller exhaust wheel and small exhaust housing. TD06 wheel is about 5mm smaller then HX35 on both ends. A turbo like Fp red maybe even black would be bad ass on a rally car running 24-28 psi of boost. But if you want a highway monster that pulls hard past 8000+ rpms Fp bolt on might not be the best choice.

Anyways its way to damn late, need to hit the pillow :)
 
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i would like to add my own opinion in here that any "sport" turbo (also known as direct bolt up) is limited. factory flange in and factory flange out is small. its cool that companys make direct bolt up upgrade turbos, but they'll only get you so far. the way i see it, if a guy is gonna go for power, than do it up right and go big or go home.

full turbo header, T3 or T4 frame turbo with V-band out, custom O2 housing eliminator down pipes, REAL intercooler piping (j-pipe is a joke) internal gates are inferior to having a nice external gate bleeding off exhaust pressure far away from the turbine wheel. think of the turbulance and chaos thats happening when i lil tiny pathetic internal gate flapper is opening up next to the hot-wheel. those exhaust situations should be completley seperate.

mitsu based flange turbo make for a good "sport" turbo upgrade. to go for the real power you need "full" turbo upgrade. i remember i having a PTE 60trim turbo that was internal gated direct bolt up mitsu flange in and mitsu flange out. it was conveinent because my stock manni and O2 housing worked just bolt it right up like lego's and go. but those type of set-ups are so limited.

like i said, if your aiming for 5-600 ponies, your gonna need a "full" turbo system, the "sport" package aint gonna cut it. people praise these direct bolt up turbos because they either lack money to buy the other components of the system or they lack fabrication skills to construct nice header and piping and exhaust. people praise these PTE or FP turbo cause they just bolt right on EASY style.

think outside the box people, full bolt up everything isnt always the awnser. how about taking a turbo off a 2012 international thats compound borg warners? volvo semi truck turbo? for big power your gonna have to think out side the box. for mild power, sure, just open up the ordering catalog and start picking out your parts. (any one can do that) well, if ya got the coin of course.

you know what not everyone can do? make it happen for them selves. boostdriven is a perfect example of thinking outside the box. look at his hx52 hybrid turbo from hell! this thing is a absolute monster! its practically untouchable and the spool isnt bad at all. his 68mm turbo spools about the same as my 62mm turbo. that takes skill, and you know what? that set up would destroy ANY full bolt up "sport" turbo.

and not to start talkin major S here or nothin, but every car that i have street raced that was sportin the oh so goodness FP (insert color code here) turbo, fell victum to my HOLSET.
 
i would like to add my own opinion in here that any "sport" turbo (also known as direct bolt up) is limited. factory flange in and factory flange out is small. its cool that companys make direct bolt up upgrade turbos, but they'll only get you so far. the way i see it, if a guy is gonna go for power, than do it up right and go big or go home.

full turbo header, T3 or T4 frame turbo with V-band out, custom O2 housing eliminator down pipes, REAL intercooler piping (j-pipe is a joke) internal gates are inferior to having a nice external gate bleeding off exhaust pressure far away from the turbine wheel. think of the turbulance and chaos thats happening when i lil tiny pathetic internal gate flapper is opening up next to the hot-wheel. those exhaust situations should be completley seperate.

mitsu based flange turbo make for a good "sport" turbo upgrade. to go for the real power you need "full" turbo upgrade. i remember i having a PTE 60trim turbo that was internal gated direct bolt up mitsu flange in and mitsu flange out. it was conveinent because my stock manni and O2 housing worked just bolt it right up like lego's and go. but those type of set-ups are so limited.

like i said, if your aiming for 5-600 ponies, your gonna need a "full" turbo system, the "sport" package aint gonna cut it. people praise these direct bolt up turbos because they either lack money to buy the other components of the system or they lack fabrication skills to construct nice header and piping and exhaust. people praise these PTE or FP turbo cause they just bolt right on EASY style.

think outside the box people, full bolt up everything isnt always the awnser. how about taking a turbo off a 2012 international thats compound borg warners? volvo semi truck turbo? for big power your gonna have to think out side the box. for mild power, sure, just open up the ordering catalog and start picking out your parts. (any one can do that) well, if ya got the coin of course.

you know what not everyone can do? make it happen for them selves. boostdriven is a perfect example of thinking outside the box. look at his hx52 hybrid turbo from hell! this thing is a absolute monster! its practically untouchable and the spool isnt bad at all. his 68mm turbo spools about the same as my 62mm turbo. that takes skill, and you know what? that set up would destroy ANY full bolt up "sport" turbo.

and not to start talkin major S here or nothin, but every car that i have street raced that was sportin the oh so goodness FP (insert color code here) turbo, fell victum to my HOLSET.

To each their own and you're certainly entitled to your opinion but I don't think you are giving bolt-on setups near enough credit.

Matter of fact, I'd like to see you make my FP fall victim to your hx52, I'll even throw down a nice wager if you're interested :)
 
well for one, im a HX40 (super hx40 with upgrade wheel and cover) and for two, id certainly throw down the freeway fight with ya's man. im never scared of a good challange. im a good looser, but im a even better winner :) if you made 600HP and i made, oh, say, 570HP id still race you. power isnt always the deceiding factor in a race. ive won plenty of street races aginst other cars that DID indeed make more power than me.

besides power, theres other elements that come into effect. driver skill, how well you know the car, clutch controll on the launch, charisma, luck, power to weight, power to traction. whos got the highest dyno number doesnt mean the deceiding factor of whos gonna win a race.

if you make 600HP on a "sport" turbo (true direct bolt on) than thats hella good bragging rights and i tip my hat to you. BUT, the 600hp is gonna hit at say 7000RPM and start choking and falling down as you rev out to your 8300RPM shift point. your 600hp is loosing momentem. my dyno papers might only read to 570 or 580 but it climbs the whole way to 8500RPM. my power never chokes. it never peaks or crowns or falls off. its gaining the whole time and dont choke.

im not startin a war, i totally respect guys that make real power, and anything over 500 is REAL power in my book. to bad were totally across the country from one another otherwise id glady arange a meet up. we could do the go-pro cam and all and go youtube famous bro! :)

my car is 4 wheel drive, weighs 2950 on a CAT certified scale, (under 3K for a 4WD is good) makes high 500 close to 600 ponies on PUMP gas, rocks a moddest 33psi doing this. for our showdown id throw a extra bottle of heat in my water meth tank and turn the HALLMAN a few turns and boost 40psi for the special occassion. trust me guy, it'd be a DSM showdown. and if you beat me, id be a good sport about it and totally give props where credit is due. garentee you wouldnt just flat out whoop my ass. you'd have your work cut out for ya as it wouldnt be a easy battle.

maybe we can agree on a certain date sometime this summer with a gentlemans agreement to have a dyno sheet posted by a certain day? lets see whos powerband looks healthy all the way through the rev range. we can start our very own thread and have others take votes for what powerband they'd rather have. i see that bein a realistic battle that we can do.

or just post a real live 1/4mile timeslip but that will probably never happen as i dont ever make it out to the track, i hit dynos quite often and street race any worthy opponent tho. anywho, your car is awsome and im sure its fast as f#ck, i just see "sport" turbo system as more of a choke point than "full" turbo system
 
so lets say by the time he upgrades to a FP black i upgrade to a HOLSET hx52. i got the inside deal on the secret recipe for makin a 52 peppy as f#ck on a 2.0L

hx52 purchased as a re-buildable core from a online semi truck junk yard for 200 bucks, authentic holset rebuil kit for 100 bucks, have boostdriven work his magic = free, secret ingredients to make the hx52 recipe is about 150-200 bucks. so for about 450-500 dollars ill have a HUGE 68mm billet turbo thats competative to $2500 turbos. FOR A FRACTION OF THE COST.

if i lost, oh well, just lost to a 2700 dollar turbo vs's my semi truck junk yard special...

HOLSET for life! some day when im not even a DSMer and ive moved up to a nicer platform ill STILL RUN HOLSET! HX series turbos just have a special place in my heart guys. SUPRA with HX55!
 
well for one, im a HX40 (super hx40 with upgrade wheel and cover) and for two, id certainly throw down the freeway fight with ya's man. im never scared of a good challange. im a good looser, but im a even better winner :) if you made 600HP and i made, oh, say, 570HP id still race you. power isnt always the deceiding factor in a race. ive won plenty of street races aginst other cars that DID indeed make more power than me.

besides power, theres other elements that come into effect. driver skill, how well you know the car, clutch controll on the launch, charisma, luck, power to weight, power to traction. whos got the highest dyno number doesnt mean the deceiding factor of whos gonna win a race.

if you make 600HP on a "sport" turbo (true direct bolt on) than thats hella good bragging rights and i tip my hat to you. BUT, the 600hp is gonna hit at say 7000RPM and start choking and falling down as you rev out to your 8300RPM shift point. your 600hp is loosing momentem. my dyno papers might only read to 570 or 580 but it climbs the whole way to 8500RPM. my power never chokes. it never peaks or crowns or falls off. its gaining the whole time and dont choke.

im not startin a war, i totally respect guys that make real power, and anything over 500 is REAL power in my book. to bad were totally across the country from one another otherwise id glady arange a meet up. we could do the go-pro cam and all and go youtube famous bro! :)

my car is 4 wheel drive, weighs 2950 on a CAT certified scale, (under 3K for a 4WD is good) makes high 500 close to 600 ponies on PUMP gas, rocks a moddest 33psi doing this. for our showdown id throw a extra bottle of heat in my water meth tank and turn the HALLMAN a few turns and boost 40psi for the special occassion. trust me guy, it'd be a DSM showdown. and if you beat me, id be a good sport about it and totally give props where credit is due. garentee you wouldnt just flat out whoop my ass. you'd have your work cut out for ya as it wouldnt be a easy battle.

maybe we can agree on a certain date sometime this summer with a gentlemans agreement to have a dyno sheet posted by a certain day? lets see whos powerband looks healthy all the way through the rev range. we can start our very own thread and have others take votes for what powerband they'd rather have. i see that bein a realistic battle that we can do.

or just post a real live 1/4mile timeslip but that will probably never happen as i dont ever make it out to the track, i hit dynos quite often and street race any worthy opponent tho. anywho, your car is awsome and im sure its fast as f#ck, i just see "sport" turbo system as more of a choke point than "full" turbo system

No doubt a T3 or even a T4 is better depending on the application, but the OP wants a street car which would mean he's willing to sacrifice some top end for spool. Sorry man, I don't street race and certainly wouldn't go do some highway pulls, ever. Circle track, 1/4 track or whatever as long it's a legal even though and I'm down :D.

I'll be at the DSM shootout, Import Nationals, Import vs Domestic and whatever else I can find that looks like fun, you should come out to one man :thumb:


so lets say by the time he upgrades to a FP black i upgrade to a HOLSET hx52. i got the inside deal on the secret recipe for makin a 52 peppy as f#ck on a 2.0L

hx52 purchased as a re-buildable core from a online semi truck junk yard for 200 bucks, authentic holset rebuil kit for 100 bucks, have boostdriven work his magic = free, secret ingredients to make the hx52 recipe is about 150-200 bucks. so for about 450-500 dollars ill have a HUGE 68mm billet turbo thats competative to $2500 turbos. FOR A FRACTION OF THE COST.

if i lost, oh well, just lost to a 2700 dollar turbo vs's my semi truck junk yard special...

HOLSET for life! some day when im not even a DSMer and ive moved up to a nicer platform ill STILL RUN HOLSET! HX series turbos just have a special place in my heart guys. SUPRA with HX55!

$2700??? I thought I payed $1599 shipped :p.

You guys might as well start talking about who has a bigger dick, go get your tape measures and post your results here ;)

Pretty sure this thread hasn't been on topic for a long time before us, and you were a main culprit. Remove the plank first ;)

well some of us need yard sticks and others need feeler gauges :)

LOL I hear that!
 
PHUNNY, i love your car man, lookin at your profile pics makes me jelous. i wish my car looked excactly like yours. i love silver/grey eclipse's and i love 2Gb looks. im wanting to update my 2Ga bumpers to 98 spec, get the tall spoiler and get fresh paint. it all comes with time tho. my friend alex (boostdriven has a beautifull 2Gb like yours to just differant color. i want 2Gb looks bad but ive been investing in the powerplant befor the cosmetic looks of it. like i said, all comes with time.

i trully respect your acomplishments for that kinda power on a "direct-bolt-up" turbo. i tip my hat to you for sure, have you ever rode in a car that has a dyno graph that its power goes up and NEVER levels or flatens or drops? its insane.

on boostdiven's dyno, it starts out a tiny bit lazy but then the power just starts pourin on and never ever lets off or goes away. my dyno graph is very similar to that. im thinkin im gonna switch my hx40 to somethin bigger. i wanna join the 600hp club and i know a hx40 could do it but i think a 52 would get me there easier and not be so "high-strung"

i guess it comes down to personal preferance on "sport" turbo vs's "full" turbo. the smaller housing of direct bolt up will give better response and spool but it WILL fall off on the top end. the "full" turbo setup is bigger housing which equals slower response but the topend is gained.

to sum it up in simple terms... you cant have your cake and eat it too

you dont get the best of both worlds, sorry it just doesnt work that way. its either one or the other. some pick "quick spoolin to be quick on its toes" others pick "maf*cken top-end breathing" kinda turbo. its all preferance. i like to make power ALL the way through the rev range. if power is falling off at top end i dont like that. ill sacrafice alil spool to make sure my power climbs all the way.

kinda dig what im sayin?
 
Pretty sure this thread hasn't been on topic for a long time before us, and you were a main culprit. Remove the plank first ;)

How is it not on topic? Maybe its the novel I wrote up last night :) show me which one of my post in this thread did not give some info to the OP. I know my last one about measuring dicks was a bit off topic :)

So are you going to use a map sensor and log your drive pressure with your new fp black?
I know its kind of a set number and you can't really change it, you just get what you get but at lease you will know where your turbo goes out of its efficiency
 
My car looks like a silver and black zebra right now, cf doors, hood and hatch. I'm going to wrap it after this season, well that's the plan anyway LOL.

I definitely hear what you're saying, have you seen the vvt's yet? I think one day we'll see a 3586 or larger spool like a 16g and still have the top end, at least I hope so :)
 
i think all of us 600hp contenders should post a 3rd gear power pull log that has boost and e-map logged over rpm. nothing else, kill all the other gauges and we'll have just boost, back-pressure and rpm. i think comparing all of our results would be very interesting
 
I think phunny ran a 10.5 @ 134mph on the fp red. Any of the holset guys in here run faster?
 
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