viperlp01 said:

I just told you what you need to do. Stall the car. track data log. slam the bi*** rich, slam the timing back and watch it stall. I stall a stock converter, no nitrous, 3700 in 5 secs(35psi) with my compound setup.

Click to expand...

Thats what i'm talking about right there..Is that also With no 2 step or dynatek ign?


I would suspect boost leaks for sure..Not positive..But like John said, us with stock trans/converters can stall higher than 2200 rpm..

I can get around 3k using just brakes, or just the ebrake..

If your trying to spool a 14b o t25 thers definatly something wrong..So a blt first..Then look at your log..Tune for enriched fuel for the stall and bamm..You should be good to go..

Let us know the updates..

My tuner said no anti lag for me..Cause I would eventually send the turbine into whats ever behind me..But he didnt say no to 2 step.

donniekak said:

Wow, a guy that runs 9's on an auto is full of crap about how to stall an auto.

Click to expand...

Sorry but i've spoke to Lucas English in person about just this several times. I do think his opinion trumps all in this thread.

He explained to me that you need the torque to get up on the stall. Dropping timing will do the opposite of that. High timing and lean afr's.

After listening to him and changing my tune from what this site's advise was i was able to launch my car with ease. So professional opinion and my personal experience is what i base my opinions on. Unless something has drastically changed recently then idk.

Also care to explain why kiggly, the cdub guys, and english, that none of them use anti-lag? They use two step but not to build boost, but to limit it.

Most likely for the reason I stated about it being so harsh on a turbine. It is bad for a turbo since the explosion happens in the turbine. Not every wants to switch turbos often.
2 step is a simple rev limit either spark cut or fuel cut based.

Not everyone is a dsmer either..Changing turbos has been an every year affair for me for a while..This 14b is loving life in the yellow beast, so lets hope it stays that way..

I spool a 5ucking 52mm/67mm charger in 5 secs on the dynatek 2 step with low timing and rich AFRs. No offence to English but he also told Tyler(turbo23) to run a stock intake manifold and small cams in his 16g car and shift at 6k but look who has the fastest no nitrous AWD 16g car in the world?

Kiggly tech site is down for some reason but he clearly states in his tech article to pull timing back and richen up the AFR's. When I was on a normal timing and afr table on link it took me all week to stall the auto. I am not just some kid that has talked to some people who are fast and said" OO this is what they told me".

Why would I lie to you guys. Bring your car here and I will make that bi*** light up like no tomorrow. What makes more torque? An engine with low timing and rich AFRs making 20psi or a 2.0L engine with no boost. Both of our auto cars follow this philosophy and it works just fine.

Bud92gsx said:

Not everyone is a dsmer either..Changing turbos has been an every year affair for me for a while..This 14b is loving life in the yellow beast, so lets hope it stays that way..

Click to expand...

A decent rebuild on 1 turbo would stop that........

viperlp01 said:

What makes more torque? An engine with low timing and rich AFRs making 20psi or a 2.0L engine with no boost.

Click to expand...

This is what I was thinking. Boost=torque

MJcanada said:

This is what I was thinking. Boost=torque

Click to expand...

There is no real way around it. Having lean afr's and a high timing map might get it to flash to a higher rpm off the bat but it will take longer to make target boost which will dictate final stall. There is no denying that.

I should post a video of my car from the inside. You can hear the car stall twice as fast as soon as the wideband goes rich and the car starts to pull timing. When it is up and running I will have to take a video.

MJcanada said:

A decent rebuild on 1 turbo would stop that........

Click to expand...

Decent you say huh..I think the mod in my signiture does make par for sure..MOre like a double eagle to me, but who asked me.

John I want mine to lite up like a b***..

Cdc1221 said:

Care to enlighten us? Rather than call the guy out and leave it at that...

Click to expand...

Ever hear of sarcasm?

John I'd like to see vid whenever you get a chance to take one.
And bud, its just a rebuild. Sig doesn't mean much to me TBH. But that's off topic so I'll leave it there.

If you want to call Justin a sub par turbo builder I won't have it..SO I hope thas not what your trying to say..

You wanna see john stall this car..YOu must not see much dsm utube stuff then huh?

You can probably hear it in these videos

Too bad this guy is talking or you could hear it easily. This log showed 6 secs to stall. outside temperature plays a HUGE role in stalling for me. t was about 80-85 at shootout this year
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDKLYDf_MeY]Dsm shootout 2012 DSE finals - YouTube[/ame]

This was on the "high timing, lean spool" bs
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN0Mn1NEMGs]John's Compound Talon running 9s - YouTube[/ame]

Took me 10+ secs to stall it up

viperlp01 said:

I spool a 5ucking 52mm/67mm charger in 5 secs on the dynatek 2 step with low timing and rich AFRs. No offence to English but he also told Tyler(turbo23) to run a stock intake manifold and small cams in his 16g car and shift at 6k but look who has the fastest no nitrous AWD 16g car in the world?

Kiggly tech site is down for some reason but he clearly states in his tech article to pull timing back and richen up the AFR's. When I was on a normal timing and afr table on link it took me all week to stall the auto. I am not just some kid that has talked to some people who are fast and said" OO this is what they told me".

Why would I lie to you guys. Bring your car here and I will make that bi*** light up like no tomorrow. What makes more torque? An engine with low timing and rich AFRs making 20psi or a 2.0L engine with no boost. Both of our auto cars follow this philosophy and it works just fine.

Click to expand...

Im not trying to bash anything you guys have done. Most of my comments weren't directed to you. But anyway can you explain your theory?

Because it seems flawed, specifically this part

viperlp01 said:

What makes more torque? An engine with low timing and rich AFRs making 20psi or a 2.0L engine with no boost.

Click to expand...

Or umm a 2.0 with high timing and 20psi? See what i mean. I dont understand how lower torque will build more boost on an engine seeing full load trying to get over the "hump". I just doesn't make sense to me.


Again not trying to discredit your work, but for comparisons sake, english's 16g car has probably 1/4 of the money wrapped up in it as yours does and runs similar times.

Besides they still own the 16g overall, which really is the only one that matters. Its splitting hairs when people get into fastest fwd 16g, fastest awd 5 speed, fastest auto awd, etc etc.

They ran pump gas on a stock-ish motor. You ran meth, forward facing mani, full high comp engine build, the works. This is the bay of the car your full race meth car beat by .05.

Edit: Again, please dont take my questions, comparisons, and criticism as bashing. Im just trying to understand your theory here.

Bud92gsx said:

If you want to call Justin a sub par turbo builder I won't have it..SO I hope thas not what your trying to say..

You wanna see john stall this car..YOu must not see much dsm utube stuff then huh?

Click to expand...

I didn't say that did I? Are you worried? You said you "hope" it lasts. Again off topic. Keep your man crush to yourself, I said nothing degrading about his work.

viperlp01 said:

You can probably hear it in these videos

Too bad this guy is talking or you could hear it easily. This log showed 6 secs to stall. outside temperature plays a HUGE role in stalling for me. t was about 80-85 at shootout this year
Dsm shootout 2012 DSE finals - YouTube

This was on the "high timing, lean spool" bs
John's Compound Talon running 9s - YouTube

Took me 10+ secs to stall it up

Click to expand...

Wow, there is a big difference between the two stalls there. Doing something right .

i have an auto with v3 full. here is what i do to RIP OPEN my tires. in the als/ knck section. i set my antilag 3000rpm, above 43%tps, speed under 5mph, hold timming at 10.1, enrich fuel by 8%

then in the rpm/tps tab i set launch limit to 3800rpm. i just pul up on the hand brake HARD, stand on the the brake pedal, and floor the throttle. after about 5-7 seconds my boost comes on. at about 15 psi my brakes cant hold the car. i let it drag the car about 1-2 feet then drop the brakes and hope my head is on the headrest already

MJ cananda..Ya i hope it lasts casue I'm gonna try and break it..

91stocker said:

Im not trying to bash anything you guys have done. Most of my comments weren't directed to you. But anyway can you explain your theory?

Because it seems flawed, specifically this part



Or umm a 2.0 with high timing and 20psi? See what i mean. I dont understand how lower torque will build more boost on an engine seeing full load trying to get over the "hump". I just doesn't make sense to me.


Again not trying to discredit your work, but for comparisons sake, english's 16g car has probably 1/4 of the money wrapped up in it as yours does and runs similar times.

Besides they still own the 16g overall, which really is the only one that matters. Its splitting hairs when people get into fastest fwd 16g, fastest awd 5 speed, fastest auto awd, etc etc.

They ran pump gas on a stock-ish motor. You ran meth, forward facing mani, full high comp engine build, the works. This is the bay of the car your full race meth car beat by .05.

Edit: Again, please dont take my questions, comparisons, and criticism as bashing. Im just trying to understand your theory here.

Click to expand...

Your missing the point. Obviously more timing makes more torque on or off boost, but in order to reach stall rpm with a turbo car you must first build boost. for example, if you put 30 degrees and make no boost you might get to 2300 rpm, but that rpm does not make enough heat to spool the turbo so you will be stuck at 2300rpm. If you pull timing back to say 10* you will start to make heat and build boost before you get to 2300rpm. As boost builds (And timing doesn't change) the cylinder psi will raise causing your 10* of timing to be closer to optimum and boost will continue to climb until gate psi is reached, then you'll limit the rpm to what ever you want. Adding fuel helps this whole situation by creating more heat.

As for the 16g stuff.. you need to get your facts straight. Lucas did go faster than me, but with a billet wheel 16g (68HTA). Also he is on a 2.3 stroker, E85(not pump like you said), carbon fiber hood and lexan rear window. So in recap. I hold the E316g record with no nitrous. Lucas might have a stock IM and exhaust mani, but he still has a ,higher than stock compression, forged internal 2.3 so the money thing is probably way closer than you think. I build everything myself, so my header would probably offset the cost of his front mount?? I think his car weights less than mine.. but i'm not sure. I don't know, and I don't really care. there are several ways to skin a cat. I think Lucas went a 10.6 with an evoIII 16g, but i could be wrong.

FWIW We like the English crew, not trying to bad mouth them at all. We know what works with our personal experience.

BTW I went this fast with this compressor wheel. Do you think I would go faster with a better wheel?

turbo23 said:

Your missing the point. Obviously more timing makes more torque on or off boost, but in order to reach stall rpm with a turbo car you must first build boost. for example, if you put 30 degrees and make no boost you might get to 2300 rpm, but that rpm does not make enough heat to spool the turbo so you will be stuck at 2300rpm. If you pull timing back to say 10* you will start to make heat and build boost before you get to 2300rpm. As boost builds (And timing doesn't change) the cylinder psi will raise causing your 10* of timing to be closer to optimum and boost will continue to climb until gate psi is reached, then you'll limit the rpm to what ever you want. Adding fuel helps this whole situation by creating more heat.

Click to expand...

It is starting to make a little more sense now. I've been looking into since the start of this thread.

I think where my misunderstanding was that lean afr's would make more heat then rich. But i've found that only above 14.6afr does it make more heat then a lower afr. So thats out since it will never see that under load.

I also was thinking that the torque created from the timing would out do the heat loss of running high timing and the heat gain from low timing. But it wont.

Double fail i guess.

I will absolutely have to experiment again this spring now. Im really wondering why i had the results i did then. When i tried to stall up on 10* timing and about 10.8afr the car wouldn't make more then 1.7psi on a 14b. Seemed flat and lame.

Bud92gsx said:

MJ cananda..Ya i hope it lasts casue I'm gonna try and break it..

Click to expand...

Lol beat it to death!

91stocker said:

It is starting to make a little more sense now. I've been looking into since the start of this thread.

I think where my misunderstanding was that lean afr's would make more heat then rich. But i've found that only above 14.6afr does it make more heat then a lower afr. So thats out since it will never see that under load.

I also was thinking that the torque created from the timing would out do the heat loss of running high timing and the heat gain from low timing. But it wont.

Double fail i guess.

I will absolutely have to experiment again this spring now. Im really wondering why i had the results i did then. When i tried to stall up on 10* timing and about 10.8afr the car wouldn't make more then 1.7psi on a 14b. Seemed flat and lame.

Click to expand...

Little less timing and richer, like 10.0 rich

viperlp01 said:

Haha I am just messing with ya. I am just surprised they won't listen.

Click to expand...

Who exactly is they? I know it's not me seeing as how I mentioned specifically I'm not arguing or challenging anything, just curious on the physics of how that works. It was eventually explained. I wasn't arguing or saying it doesn't work.



I definitely can say the same thing as the person above me. I tried the lean afr/high timing and it flashed to a higher RPM quick, but it stayed there and took 8 seconds+ to stall up the 16G. So I'm dying to try the rich afr/low timing if it helps stall faster, for sure.

turbo23 said:

Your missing the point. Obviously more timing makes more torque on or off boost, but in order to reach stall rpm with a turbo car you must first build boost. for example, if you put 30 degrees and make no boost you might get to 2300 rpm, but that rpm does not make enough heat to spool the turbo so you will be stuck at 2300rpm. If you pull timing back to say 10* you will start to make heat and build boost before you get to 2300rpm. As boost builds (And timing doesn't change) the cylinder psi will raise causing your 10* of timing to be closer to optimum and boost will continue to climb until gate psi is reached, then you'll limit the rpm to what ever you want. Adding fuel helps this whole situation by creating more heat.

Click to expand...

Awesome, this is what I meant by the science of it. Makes complete sense. So quick question, just how low of timing are you guys referring to? 10*? 0*?

Play with it. Mine is at 5-6* during stall

viperlp01 said:

Play with it. Mine is at 5-6* during stall

Click to expand...

About this much. I was thinking about 7°. Itll depend on your setup some but in this area.

Everyone's setup is going to like something a little different, so you need to experiment with what works for you and your car. If my car is even a tad rich it will not brake boost at all (or takes forever). I have to be like 12:1+ and run a good amount of timing. With an auto you need torque to get RPM, anything you do that removes torque defeats what you're trying to do. You not only need to spool the turbo, you need to get to a high enough RPM to start spooling it.

You also need to get cool air to the turbo, if it's sucking hot air from under the hood it will not spool decent. When mine was taking hot air, it wouldn't spool no matter how long I brake boosted but once I got cooler air it would only take a couple seconds. Also, if it's cool out, it takes me probably less than 2 seconds and when it's 90 degrees out it takes 10+ seconds if I'm lucky. I brake boost in prestage and then stage once I make boost, so I guess it doesn't matter that much how long it takes as long as it gets there eventually.

If you're running an open manifold on the stock divided housing, I would be very surprised if you'll be able to successfully brake boost without nitrous or a 2.3/2.4L because of the severe lack of torque


How can you tell someone to take out timing and richen up without knowing where they're at now?