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The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

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It's that fine line DJ. You gotta give, to get. Yes, some comfort is lost when going to poly mounts, but, what they do in return far outweighs that, IMHO of course.

I noticed a big difference in shifting when I put in the tbelt side poly mount. My stocker was pretty shot and I assume it was the reason I couldn't hammer second gear anymore. She shifts great now at 7k rpm's in all gears. What else is there to gain with poly front and rear motor mounts?
 
What else is there to gain with poly front and rear motor mounts?

Not having to worry about that stock mount ripping apart over time. If you didn't replace them all, next you'll run into the same issues and it will be a different mount about to come apart. Just put poly mounts in them and call it a day...or lifetime

Update for my car: got my fuel cell, filter and pump mounted, cleaned up my engine bay and all the years of oil and grease on the k-member. I also finished gutting my doors and installed lexan for the windows (thanks for the write-up Nate). Lastly, I got the motor tore down to a bare block (minus the main caps and oil squirters).

Question: for those of you that have ran an internal and external w/g setup, for maxing out the 14b, which setup would you suggest? Just want to get the pricing added to my parts list depending on what I will need since I'll be making a side exit exhaust...and materials will change slightly for the dump tube. TIA!
 
Brandon that really depends on you boosting needs. Internals always cheaper. The type of port work and boost levels depends on port work and o2 housing. Open dump is always better. I won't port my wastegate port if I plan on maxing the turbo out. I want as much of the exhaust gas to be forced through the turbine wheel. To hold lower levels you'll want to port that sucker out and make an open dump a must have.
 
I noticed a big difference in shifting when I put in the tbelt side poly mount. My stocker was pretty shot and I assume it was the reason I couldn't hammer second gear anymore. She shifts great now at 7k rpm's in all gears. What else is there to gain with poly front and rear motor mounts?

Well, not only does it aid with upshifts, but with downshifts alike.

Eliminates excessive movement of the engine and trans, thus helping to prevent driveline failures or breakage.

Enables power to be effectively transferred to the ground rather than some of it being ''absorbed'' by letting the engine move. Same with suspension bushings, sloppy, flexible, old bushings hinder the ability of your driver inputs to make it too the ground effectively.

And, there's probably other reasons.....like they'll likely never fail.

Not having to worry about that stock mount ripping apart over time. If you didn't replace them all, next you'll run into the same issues and it will be a different mount about to come apart. Just put poly mounts in them and call it a day...or lifetime

Update for my car: got my fuel cell, filter and pump mounted, cleaned up my engine bay and all the years of oil and grease on the k-member. I also finished gutting my doors and installed lexan for the windows (thanks for the write-up Nate). Lastly, I got the motor tore down to a bare block (minus the main caps and oil squirters).

Question: for those of you that have ran an internal and external w/g setup, for maxing out the 14b, which setup would you suggest? Just want to get the pricing added to my parts list depending on what I will need since I'll be making a side exit exhaust...and materials will change slightly for the dump tube. TIA!

Nice!

I ran internal forever, obviously, but after switching to external, I'd never go back to internal gates. Now, if you plan to pull the wastegate line and just let the turbo do whatever, may as well save your $. At that point it wouldn't matter. However, if you stay internal, definitely run an external dump 02 housing. I was the first one around my area with one, and it was a nice gain back then.

Brandon that really depends on you boosting needs. Internals always cheaper. The type of port work and boost levels depends on port work and o2 housing. Open dump is always better. I won't port my wastegate port if I plan on maxing the turbo out. I want as much of the exhaust gas to be forced through the turbine wheel. To hold lower levels you'll want to port that sucker out and make an open dump a must have.

I know what you mean with the portwork here. I'd say it's part of the equation for sure, but I wonder if it's truly proven. On that note I wouldn't port for low boost either. Path of least resistance definitely comes into play. Now, you've got me wondering about my 7cm housing I got from a friend. Gonna go check the porting!
 
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I have a cheap external dump o2 housing, but I'm planning to run a side exit exhaust up front to keep the exhaust flow as smooth as possible. I do have the 7cm housing, but the w/g hole has not been ported...the inlet has been ported. I'll be porting the Evo 3 manifold I have a bit more and porting the outlet on the turbine housing.

For the wastegate, it just depends on how well the car is running based on boost increase. I'll probably try to peak at 23-24psi and try to get it to hold as much as possible. I originally planned to run a fmic, but not sure if I want to do that or run an A2W setup. The car is going to be a track only car, so street use isn't an issue. There are three reasons I am considering the A2W setup over the fmic...cheaper, less pressure drop in a situation where you need all the flow you can get, and the cooling efficiency of water is better than air...especially on those hot Cali summer days!
 
I ran internal forever, obviously, but after switching to external, I'd never go back to internal gates. Now, if you plan to pull the wastegate line and just let the turbo do whatever, may as well save your $. At that point it wouldn't matter. However, if you stay internal, definitely run an external dump 02 housing. I was the first one around my area with one, and it was a nice gain back then.



I know what you mean with the portwork here. I'd say it's part of the equation for sure, but I wonder if it's truly proven. On that note I wouldn't port for low boost either. Path of least resistance definitely comes into play. Now, you've got me wondering about my 7cm housing I got from a friend. Gonna go check the porting!

What kind of gains did you see going to external dump. One thing on my list of things to do but right now not a priority.

Im assuming that you mean you wouldn't port for high boost??

I have a cheap external dump o2 housing, but I'm planning to run a side exit exhaust up front to keep the exhaust flow as smooth as possible. I do have the 7cm housing, but the w/g hole has not been ported...the inlet has been ported. I'll be porting the Evo 3 manifold I have a bit more and porting the outlet on the turbine housing.

For the wastegate, it just depends on how well the car is running based on boost increase. I'll probably try to peak at 23-24psi and try to get it to hold as much as possible. I originally planned to run a fmic, but not sure if I want to do that or run an A2W setup. The car is going to be a track only car, so street use isn't an issue. There are three reasons I am considering the A2W setup over the fmic...cheaper, less pressure drop in a situation where you need all the flow you can get, and the cooling efficiency of water is better than air...especially on those hot Cali summer days!

Id say your good to go with running any sort of external dump. Maybe leave the wastegate porting alone to since its a track only car. Nice thing is you can pull it later and port it if it becomes an issue. Porting it now and not needing it later, well you cant take that back.

It would be nice to try an A2W IC with my car. Im sure you can get the the intake temps down quite a bit.
 
Yeah, definitely not going to port the w/g provision, but the outlet from the turbine wheel will get ported a bit to let the air flow through as much as possible!

Hey Justin, I just posted up my external dump o2 housing if you want it. It's for an internal gate. Not sure if you are wanting a dump for an external gate or internal? You could always modify it to fit an external gate if you have the flanges. Only asking $15 + shipping. It's in the classifieds.
 
Yeah, definitely not going to port the w/g provision, but the outlet from the turbine wheel will get ported a bit to let the air flow through as much as possible!

Hey Justin, I just posted up my external dump o2 housing if you want it. It's for an internal gate. Not sure if you are wanting a dump for an external gate or internal? You could always modify it to fit an external gate if you have the flanges. Only asking $15 + shipping. It's in the classifieds.

I just might jump on that. You should see the pie cut piece o' crap that im dealing with now. Im only running it because it was the best option laying in my parts bucket to get the car running. I really need to make one that goes back through my hood where I had my exhaust routed with my pte6262. Doesnt look very good with duct tape covering the hole.
 
What kind of gains did you see going to external dump. One thing on my list of things to do but right now not a priority.

Im assuming that you mean you wouldn't port for high boost??



Id say your good to go with running any sort of external dump. Maybe leave the wastegate porting alone to since its a track only car. Nice thing is you can pull it later and port it if it becomes an issue. Porting it now and not needing it later, well you cant take that back.

It would be nice to try an A2W IC with my car. Im sure you can get the the intake temps down quite a bit.

A good gain in response and about 2 tenths in the 1/4, but that's way back when the car was a heftier street car.

No I meant I wouldn't port for low boost, as in setting boost low and then porting the wastegate flapper area to prevent creep...
 
A good gain in response and about 2 tenths in the 1/4, but that's way back when the car was a heftier street car.

No I meant I wouldn't port for low boost, as in setting boost low and then porting the wastegate flapper area to prevent creep...

Now I'd more want to see if there was an mph gain rather than ET. But with a gain in response, that would help between gears. In turn giving better ET.

Now why wouldn't you wanna port to rid of creep?
 
A good gain in response and about 2 tenths in the 1/4, but that's way back when the car was a heftier street car.

No I meant I wouldn't port for low boost, as in setting boost low and then porting the wastegate flapper area to prevent creep...

Might be a dumb question but i've got to ask, why are you guys running a wg at all? Maybe i missed it, but why not just tack the flapper shut?
 
I didn't wire mine shut for two reasons. First why end the life of a turbo so soon from excessive shaft speeds. Second with such a small turbine it'll build up to much back pressure and could make less power.
 
Second with such a small turbine it'll build up to much back pressure and could make less power.

Wouldn't this help up top with the drop off though?

And i've had other small frame guys tell me that wanted the creep/spike. They wanted that "hit" to aid there 60ft. The way they explained it made sense to me at the time.
 
Might just in the top end. But it would be better to keep the boost low enough to not have a lot of back pressure and then get more aggressive on the tune.

Even with a small frame turbo that kind of spike isn't needed to get the car to launch. That to can get made up with tune.
 
This little turbo spools so quick, the difference between a 'spike' and just coming into boost normally is maybe half a second. When sitting on the line waiting to launch, that 'spike' isn't doing anything but causing excessive heat and wear.

As for welding the flapper shut, I'm also gonna say no to that one. You could, but I would want to max the turbo out on a wastegate first...then if I need more, weld it and tune from there. The tune is just going to be so much more different and harder to tune since you can't adjust and tune...you just have to figure out what works at max boost all the time.
 
I finished up my doors today!!! It's a new twist on an old classic and I am very pleased with how they turned out!

Super nice work! Are you for hire!? LOL

Now I'd more want to see if there was an mph gain rather than ET. But with a gain in response, that would help between gears. In turn giving better ET.

Now why wouldn't you wanna port to rid of creep?

Well, my current best trap speed at that time was 108.1.

I advanced timing to 10° BTDC & added the 02 dump...

New best MPH 110.0

As for porting: No reason to port for ridding of creep because:

1. Boost is set high enough not to worry
2. By porting the wastegate flapper area and making any smooth curves from the turbine housing inlet, you are giving the exhaust an 'easy' path toward the flapper. With what we are trying to do we want as much of the exhaust gas to hit the turbine as possible.

Might be a dumb question but i've got to ask, why are you guys running a wg at all? Maybe i missed it, but why not just tack the flapper shut?

Same reason as has been stated, turbo life.

And, not really into the 'tune for the spike.'

I want a reliable consistant running car, as I've had. If the compressor nut hadn't come loose, I'd still be on the original turbo, and would have just kept chipping away.

Wouldn't this help up top with the drop off though?

And i've had other small frame guys tell me that wanted the creep/spike. They wanted that "hit" to aid there 60ft. The way they explained it made sense to me at the time.

Lots of e316g guys tune for the spike. It does work. It's also how you see 16g HP numbers north of 425 at the wheels. Just not my cup of tea. If I ran an e3 I'd probably set boost at 25-28 max. That would produce enough power to easily run 10 second ETs.

Might just in the top end. But it would be better to keep the boost low enough to not have a lot of back pressure and then get more aggressive on the tune.

Even with a small frame turbo that kind of spike isn't needed to get the car to launch. That to can get made up with tune.

Agreed. I doubt pulling the wastegate line or welding the flapper shut would enable me to hit the 1.3 short times I'm in search of. However, I'm just speculating, it might work. Again, I'll let someone else test that one out.

This little turbo spools so quick, the difference between a 'spike' and just coming into boost normally is maybe half a second. When sitting on the line waiting to launch, that 'spike' isn't doing anything but causing excessive heat and wear.

As for welding the flapper shut, I'm also gonna say no to that one. You could, but I would want to max the turbo out on a wastegate first...then if I need more, weld it and tune from there. The tune is just going to be so much more different and harder to tune since you can't adjust and tune...you just have to figure out what works at max boost all the time.

Yeah....sounds right......

While I have some time here, I also want to point out a few things.

First, I'll say that no matter who you are, I respect whatever modding path you want to take.

If you wanna go forward facing manifold and slap a 14b on, cool.

Whatever your path, cool.

However, as much as we'd all like to run 10's, how you do it does matter IMHO.

Everyone knows I'm a minimalist. But, it seems I've run a portion of that dry. I had a nice long run though. So, at this point, I'm gonna start implementing some things that others have already done. Such as balance shaft removal, compression bump, cams, and a real tuning interface. A couple of great friends were over this past weekend, two that have followed what I've been doing for a long time, and have helped me out in many ways. They follow the thread and chime in here and there. We were talking about my new set up as both of them have alot more time inside engines and more trial and error. So, the outcome of the conversations is that they don't want me to step outside the box. I agree. By this, I mean, I want to stay with as much of the stock configuration as possible:

-1G head and intake
-air to air intercooler
-manifold location
-air filter location

...to name a few.

Now, some of you would ask why? Some will understand immediately. And, of course, some won't give a F***.

Of course, none of our cars are anything near a stock DSM any longer, but I still think some guidelines apply. At least for me. So, I've got no real surprises in store in that respect. If I break any records, I want it to be on a stock configured set up, nothing more.

In the end, no matter how I suppose, if someone can best the 10.87 record, it doesn't matter how, the number is the number.

Anyway, that's my path, everyone has their own. It's just a matter of which path garners the proper respect, whether you can break a record or not.
 
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I can't believe no one has broken the record by now. After reading 118 pages, I thought for sure it was going to result in a new name on the top of the list. I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that, it's just that this record has stood for a long long time (I don't know when it was set, does anyone remember?)..
 
I can't believe no one has broken the record by now. After reading 118 pages, I thought for sure it was going to result in a new name on the top of the list. I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that, it's just that this record has stood for a long long time (I don't know when it was set, does anyone remember?)..

Summer of 2004
 
I can't believe no one has broken the record by now. After reading 118 pages, I thought for sure it was going to result in a new name on the top of the list. I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that, it's just that this record has stood for a long long time (I don't know when it was set, does anyone remember?)..

Keep in mind, when the record was set, anyone else running quick 14b times was:

#1. AWD

#2. In registered street cars with maybe the exception of Nate C.

VS.

a superlight-weight FWD purpose built drag car with full lexan and an air/water intercooler

Myself first, started to move in that direction, but with no rapidity. Even now, my car doesn't match the level of the record holder. And there's a few guys here that are closer to Joe's car than I am.

So, it's no surprise to me at all. Now, that there's a few FWD cars in the mix, there's a better chance of the record dropping on the 300+ lb. weight advantage alone.

Summer of 2004

So this summer will be 9 years...wow. Props to Joe, he went where noone would go way back then. Then again, I didn't buy my car at Goodwill for $500 either....
 
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Same reason as has been stated, turbo life.

And, not really into the 'tune for the spike.'

I want a reliable consistant running car, as I've had. If the compressor nut hadn't come loose, I'd still be on the original turbo, and would have just kept chipping away.

I guess i didn't realize anyone would be that worried about a $100 turbo on a record chasing drag car.

Especially considering everyone is already over spinning the hell out of these little guys.

But i suppose trying to lengthen its life is a good enough reason.

Agreed. I doubt pulling the wastegate line or welding the flapper shut would enable me to hit the 1.3 short times I'm in search of. However, I'm just speculating, it might work. Again, I'll let someone else test that one out.

Again i was only considering that any gain, specially at the stages you guys are in, would be worth doing.

Now, some of you would ask why? Some will understand immediately. And, of course, some won't give a F***.

Of course, none of our cars are anything near a stock DSM any longer, but I still think some guidelines apply. At least for me. So, I've got no real surprises in store in that respect. If I break any records, I want it to be on a stock configured set up, nothing more.

In the end, no matter how I suppose, if someone can best the 10.87 record, it doesn't matter how, the number is the number.

Its worked out fine for you so far.

Might just in the top end. But it would be better to keep the boost low enough to not have a lot of back pressure and then get more aggressive on the tune.

Even with a small frame turbo that kind of spike isn't needed to get the car to launch. That to can get made up with tune.

But those are both gains so why not, i guess is my thinking. Shorter turbo life sure, buts its a $100 turbo on a drag only car.

By the sounds of it, it would make more power up top and launch harder. Both areas in which the 14b needs help in.

I had planned to do so on my old set up, and probably will with my new set up. Unless of course it doesn't show consistent gains.
 
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Last year I experimented with trying a few more psi a couple times and found gains each time. However, I'm inclined to believe there will be a point where forcing a few more psi out isn't going to net any gain, too much hot air, failure of the turbo, etc will probably be the results. I know the guys over at english threw their 14b on and it failed on the 2nd pass when they wired the wastegate flapper shut. The little turbo just can't handle being spun to the max. Even though we're all looking for the maximum out of this little guy, none of us want a 1 hit wonder. With that said I know alot of the 16g guys seem to get away with wiring it shut and going for broke for multiple passes, not sure what is different about the internals but it seems like something makes them last vs. the 14b.
 
I know alot of the 16g guys seem to get away with wiring it shut and going for broke for multiple passes, not sure what is different about the internals but it seems like something makes them last vs. the 14b.

Likely because their 16g started off in a plastic bag w/ zero miles in the last couple years rather than starting life in 1989 and spending ~150k miles boosting an oem 1g with questionable service&care.
 
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