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Future classics and collectables

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Novec64 said:
That's exactly what I was getting at with this thread. There's a few cars I'm already kicking myself in the ass for selling.

I challenge anyone to find an ad for a bone stock 1g awd.
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My friend has one though he has stuck an ebay 16g on it and lastly was doing a bse on it idk its state atm. He does however want to trade it for my 2g but I'm not parting with this engine. And its my dd and his engine is out.
 
I tried to get my 97 TSi AWD put on collector car insurance thru Haggerty so I wouldn't have to do emissions anymore. I sent them all the pics they required and they denied it. The guy actually said...huh an Eagle Tallone (Retard can't figure out how to say Talon) , We have never insured one!
 
Novec64 said:
I challenge anyone to find an ad for a bone stock 1g awd.
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This post makes me think that sometimes I'm still glad I have not yet modded my Evo.
 
I think there is some confusion between which cars are potential 'classics' and which cars will always have a cult following.

I think DSM's will always have a cult following, but I'm not sure they will ever become a universal classic. Similar to the GLHS, and Omni (as we're posted in this thread) those cars will always have a cult following, but probably wouldn't do so hot at a Barrett Jackson type auction.

I think the largest example of what I think is going to be a classic, and not just because I own one, is the 87-93 Fox Body Coupe. Of course I am speaking more about low mile, stockers when I say classic, I have no delusions that my modified car will be a high dollar machine one day. As it sits, low mileage all original stock Mustang (specifically Coupes) routinely sell for over 20 grand. That says a lot considering they were around 13 grand new.
 
NosLaser said:
I think there is some confusion between which cars are potential 'classics' and which cars will always have a cult following.

I think DSM's will always have a cult following, but I'm not sure they will ever become a universal classic. Similar to the GLHS, and Omni (as we're posted in this thread) those cars will always have a cult following, but probably wouldn't do so hot at a Barrett Jackson type auction.

I think the largest example of what I think is going to be a classic, and not just because I own one, is the 87-93 Fox Body Coupe. Of course I am speaking more about low mile, stockers when I say classic, I have no delusions that my modified car will be a high dollar machine one day. As it sits, low mileage all original stock Mustang (specifically Coupes) routinely sell for over 20 grand. That says a lot considering they were around 13 grand new.
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All Mustangs are collectable, but I don't see any inherent advantages a Fox Body would have over a DSM. I'd say it's just as much of a cult car. Most non-car guys probably wouldn't say that Fox Bodies are good looking cars. I'll bet Miatas end up being worth more. :D
 
Novec64 said:
All Mustangs are collectable, but I don't see any inherent advantages a Fox Body would have over a DSM. I'd say it's just as much of a cult car. Most non-car guys probably wouldn't say that Fox Bodies are good looking cars. I'll bet Miatas end up being worth more. :D
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The difference being (not saying I necessarily agree with it) but this is America, and 'American Muscle' vs. Import is still a real issue, especially among non-car people.

I don't think a day goes by that I don't get a nod, or a thumbs up, and I'm not talking about just from car guys, I'm talking dudes in minivans, women walking with their kids.

An old Honda is a classic, but doesn't carry nearly the same clout as a 69 Camaro, even despite the fact that the Honda may be way more rare. Non-car people would have a hard time figuring out why a DSM is anything more special than a Toyota Paseo. They are both 'sporty looking imports.' Remember, you have to understand not everyone is going to "ohhh" and "ahhh" over turbo AWD.
 
NosLaser said:
The difference being (not saying I necessarily agree with it) but this is America, and 'American Muscle' vs. Import is still a real issue, especially among non-car people.

I don't think a day goes by that I don't get a nod, or a thumbs up, and I'm not talking about just from car guys, I'm talking dudes in minivans, women walking with their kids.

An old Honda is a classic, but doesn't carry nearly the same clout as a 69 Camaro, even despite the fact that the Honda may be way more rare. Non-car people would have a hard time figuring out why a DSM is anything more special than a Toyota Paseo. They are both 'sporty looking imports.' Remember, you have to understand not everyone is going to "ohhh" and "ahhh" over turbo AWD.
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I definitely see your point, but part of that is because Japanese cars didn't get big until the 90's. Do you think people will spend more on Fox Bodies in a few decades than they will on say an MR-2, Supra, FD RX-7, or an Integra Type R/GSR? The style of those cars represents that era well to just about anyone, even if they don't know the history of the car.
 
Novec64 said:
I definitely see your point, but part of that is because Japanese cars didn't get big until the 90's. Do you think people will spend more on Fox Bodies in a few decades than they will on say an MR-2, Supra, FD RX-7, or an Integra Type R/GSR? The style of those cars represents that era well to just about anyone, even if they don't know the history of the car.
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It usually takes quite some time for trends like that to come full circle. Most non car people can't separate out a stock looking, lowered 500hp DSM with classy 17" wheels, and a Honda Civic with a park bench wing, clear tailights, and neon.

To us car guys, we can see the value of an FD RX-7, a Supra, etc. but I think it's more of a select group of people (statistically speaking) whereas non car people will gravitate towards old Muscle cars because that is what reminds them of their youth...the same will no doubt possibly happen with imports, but I think the numbers will be much smaller.

I get thumbs up from cops all the time (and I've got an off road X pipe, a big lumpy cam, and dumped exhaust, bigs and littles, and a 4" cowl hood-all the exact types of things that you think would attract negative attention). When cops see an import, they are usually watching them, waiting for them to do something stupid. I'm not saying that is a correct way of looking at things, but that is still where we are at.
 
At the same time though Fox Bodies are not exactly know for being aesthetically appealing, it is just that they are cheap to make fast. I see what you're saying, but I'm not so sure if I agree. Also positive/negative attention definitely isn't exclusive to domestics/imports. I'd say that goes both ways.

Again this is just one opinion , but Top Gear UK's Crock or Classic....

1. It must be interesting
2. It must be somewhat rare
3. It must be good looking
 
Novec64 said:
At the same time though Fox Bodies are not exactly know for being aesthetically appealing, it is just that they are cheap to make fast. I see what you're saying, but I'm not so sure if I agree. Also positive/negative attention definitely isn't exclusive to domestics/imports. I'd say that goes both ways.
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Well, I'm not going to argue looks of a car; that has no bearing on value.

All I can say is that the average price for say, a 91 Fox body coupe is 7-8 grand for a run of the mill daily driver. Push that to 9-10 for a really clean one, and to over 20 for an all original, low mile stocker.

The average price for a 91 DSM, assuming it runs, is around 1800. Real clean ones can be had for under 3, and highly modded ones (despite the owners asking for 8-9 grand) usually sell for about 5, and that's only because they can be parted out for twice that.

Numbers don't lie man. But you don't have to take my word for it. In 10 years, we'll price Fox Coupes and DSM's once again, and see how they stack up.
 
NosLaser said:
Well, I'm not going to argue looks of a car; that has no bearing on value.
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While looks are subjective I completely disagree with this.

All I can say is that the average price for say, a 91 Fox body coupe is 7-8 grand for a run of the mill daily driver. Push that to 9-10 for a really clean one, and to over 20 for an all original, low mile stocker.

The average price for a 91 DSM, assuming it runs, is around 1800. Real clean ones can be had for under 3, and highly modded ones (despite the owners asking for 8-9 grand) usually sell for about 5, and that's only because they can be parted out for twice that.

Numbers don't lie man. But you don't have to take my word for it. In 10 years, we'll price Fox Coupes and DSM's once again, and see how they stack up.
Click to expand...

1. I never intended this discussion to be exclusive to DSMs.
2. I realize Fox Bodies have gone back up in value a surprising amount, but a lot of the completed listings on ebay for them are under $5k.
 
NosLaser said:
Well, I'm not going to argue looks of a car; that has no bearing on value.

All I can say is that the average price for say, a 91 Fox body coupe is 7-8 grand for a run of the mill daily driver. Push that to 9-10 for a really clean one, and to over 20 for an all original, low mile stocker.

The average price for a 91 DSM, assuming it runs, is around 1800. Real clean ones can be had for under 3, and highly modded ones (despite the owners asking for 8-9 grand) usually sell for about 5, and that's only because they can be parted out for twice that.

Numbers don't lie man. But you don't have to take my word for it. In 10 years, we'll price Fox Coupes and DSM's once again, and see how they stack up.
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Is someone actually disputing that mustangs will be worth more than DSM's in the future? I guess its a good thing I own both. :p

Here's my mustang.....i'm pretty sure it ranks as a collectible!

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 
Novec64 said:
While looks are subjective I completely disagree with this.
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Sigh... When discussing the value, or collectability of a vehicle, something doesn't have to be "known for being aesthetically pleasing" for it to have value. Is a Buick Grand National collectable because of it's gorgeous, flowing, almost Ferrari-like lines and beauty? Or is it collectable because it is a bad ass shoebox that hauls ass, and a LOT of people like them... Let's put an '87 Buick Grand National in an auction, and throw it up against, say, an '87 MR2. Which one do you think is going to get more attention, and more dollars?

By the way, I hate to break it to you, but outside of the import car community, most people think imports look like "chick cars." They like the looks of the American cars over the imports, so even IF being "aesthetically pleasing" was the criteria for collectability, you'd still be outnumbered, sir.

1. I never intended this discussion to be exclusive to DSMs.
2. I realize Fox Bodies have gone back up in value a surprising amount, but a lot of the completed listings on ebay for them are under $5k.
Click to expand...

With the exception of maybe the 93 RX-7 and the 93 Supra Turbo, every other car you listed (comparing by the years to make it somewhat of a fair comparison) isn't bringing the numbers that even a clean Fox Coupe or something like a Grand National does. (Actually, Grand National numbers can well surpass Supra numbers, and clean GNX's can surpass new GTR numbers...all while being a mid 80's boxy Buick.)

Edit: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...5000&listingId=274737973&listingIndex=1&Log=0 Woof!

Wonder how many Honda Preludes have a 6 figure price tag...

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...000&listingId=308688706&listingIndex=25&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...0000&listingId=330682063&listingIndex=1&Log=0 Hmmm... Yeah, I don't see ANY advantage a Mustang would have over a DSM in collectability whatsoever...
 
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I realize that comparisons need to be made because most people didn't care about Japanese cars at all until the 90s, but this isn't meant to be an import vs domestic battle. I don't care if Mustang guys stereotype imports as "chick cars." That honestly seems to be an old school mindset that's been dying for a while and stereotypes go both ways. We're talking about generations raised on Gran Turismo now. Who cares what brand a car is as long as it performs well? Everything is outsourced now-a-days, Ford works with Mazda, Chrysler with Mitsubishi, Gm with Subaru, etc, etc, etc...... At no time did I dispute that in the long-term a Mustang will almost always be worth more than a Honda Civic.

With that said, Autotrader is not all that credible of a place to pull values from. The highest value a Fox Body ACTUALLY SOLD for in ebay COMPLETED LISTINGS right now is $16,200 and it's an 88 Saleen GT with 53,480 miles. Now I'm not saying they don't sell for $100,000 as you claim, but since numbers don't lie I'd like to see some examples that actually sold. People spend more on Fox Bodies than say an older Viper, C6 Corvette ZR1, 911 GT3 RS or a 68 Shelby GT500?

I'm not saying Fox Body Mustangs aren't collectable. Any Mustang is, that's not exactly a surprise now-a-days, but decades ago people didn't expect any Mustang to gain as much value as they have because so many of them were produced. It's those kind of cars that I think are the most interesting and yes DSMs fall in that category because people view them as disposable. Will most "tuner" cars surpass the value of American "sports cars" in America? Probably not, but I do think they'll sell for more than people expect them to now. I'll kind of agree with you on looks. There's no way that looks aren't a factor at all, but there's plenty of great cars that are just a box. The Toyota AE86, BMW E30, and Fox Body are great examples of that.

Here's an article by Jay Leno on the topic.

Here's some of Leno's picks.
The GNX, Supra, and the Evo are on there. :D

These guys list the Mk1 MR-2, Mk1 Prelude, and Galant VR-4
Hemmings, The worlds largest collector car marketplace, 25 Japanese Collectibles You Should Buy Now

A 1967 Toyota 2000GT was around $6700 new.
1967 Toyota 2000 GT Hits eBay for $650,000

Datsun S30 Z-cars are averaging $20,000. My 72 Dodge Dart sure isn't worth that.
Early Japanese classics among top emerging collectibles says Hagerty

Looks like I need to get a CRX again. I've seen them show up a lot in these discussions.
USA Today Picks Top 10 Japanese Collector Cars

1990's Style & 1990's Vehicles – U know 'U Can't Touch This'
 
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I was comparing apples to apples, meaning mi d80-90's cars, hence comparisons between Mustangs, and Grand Nationals to Supras, and DSM's and the like.

If you are going to make an argument for future classics and collectables, you can't declare game set match by comparing ALREADY classic cars to modern ones.

That Toyota GT was listed for 650k... It didn't sell. I could go list a Caravan for 650 million, that doesn't mean it represents a valid cross section of Caravan prices.

The cars we are supposed to be comparing (future collectables) when it comes to certain American cars, they are already bringing a premium price. That is the point.
 
Another vote for the Honda NSX but not just the Base model NSX but the Alex Zanardi edition only 50 in the United States
 
NosLaser said:
I was comparing apples to apples, meaning mi d80-90's cars, hence comparisons between Mustangs, and Grand Nationals to Supras, and DSM's and the like.

If you are going to make an argument for future classics and collectables, you can't declare game set match by comparing ALREADY classic cars to modern ones.

That Toyota GT was listed for 650k... It didn't sell. I could go list a Caravan for 650 million, that doesn't mean it represents a valid cross section of Caravan prices.

The cars we are supposed to be comparing (future collectables) when it comes to certain American cars, they are already bringing a premium price. That is the point.
Click to expand...


How was I not comparing apples to apples? Those were only examples that Japanese cars have potential to go up in value. There were only a few models even around then because Japanese manufacturers got to the market late so that discussion is pretty much done.


4G63_Attack said:
Another vote for the Honda NSX but not just the Base model NSX but the Alex Zanardi edition only 50 in the United States
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I very much agree. It's ridiculous how affordable an NSX is right now. A lot of Honda guys see them as the Holy Grail, they were revolutionary in a lot of ways, they have amazing styling, and there's not much that compares to them.

I didn't even know about the Alex Zanardi Edition. Definitely cool.

Alex Zanardi Signature Edition NSX

A collectible Honda from the 1990s? Yes, they exist, in the form of the NSX.

NSX-R
You must be logged in to view this image or video.



Another article on the subject:

New York Times, New-Generation Collectors Give Toyota Some Respect
 
Novec64 said:
How was I not comparing apples to apples? Those were only examples that Japanese cars have potential to go up in value. There were only a few models even around then because Japanese manufacturers got to the market late so that discussion is pretty much done.
Click to expand...

Ever stop to think that may be the reason why they would bring a higher price tag?

Don't worry, when Honda Preludes and Toyota Corollas start selling for $100k you can gladly rub this thread in my face.
 
NosLaser said:
Ever stop to think that may be the reason why they would bring a higher price tag?

Don't worry, when Honda Preludes and Toyota Corollas start selling for $100k you can gladly rub this thread in my face.
Click to expand...

I never said I expect Honda Preludes to sell for $100k however you think Fox Body Mustangs will. Who's the crazy one here? ROFL
 
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