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15.5 Seconds- What am I doing wrong?

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WES_393

DSM Wiseman
3,816
81
Jun 6, 2011
Colo Spgs, Colorado
Hey Tuners, I finally made it to the track today. It was the first time I've raced my Talon and was hoping to at least break 13's. But I was horribly disappointed with the best run of 15.5. My mods are in profile, but the most important things to note are a 2.0L engine, stock head, small 16g on 20ish PSI (spikes to 22, drops to 20, then falls to ~11 by redline). I also have a South Bend SS TZ clutch (which is part of my issue).

Pic of timeslip:

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Video of a very similar pass (at least I took down an MR2 :p). I was sleeping at the light thanks to the light operator who apparently thought 1 staging light meant I was ready for the tree to drop.

DSM 15.5 1/4 mile (Beating MR2) - YouTube

Now, the few things I've noticed that are holding me back:

Junk 60ft times. The Kevlar clutch frickin GRABS. With my composite clutch I had a good inch or two of slip space. The SS TZ? Nope. It seems to be an on/off switch. Not sure if it was because I was a bit nervous, or if it really is a grippy little thing. Anybody have any tips about how to get off the line without bogging with such a clutch?

Atmosphere: I know the air is MUCH thinner at 5800ft than sea level. But thin enough to turn a supposed 13 second car into a mid 15 second car? Everyone there seemed to run really slow compared to the test/tune's I've spectated in California and Mexico.

Boost: This 16g is barely in it's efficiency range and the boost falling off is a real killer of top end power. I feel like if I turn the boost up more it will simply drop off to where it sits now. What can I do to stop this apart from getting a bigger turbo. SMIM, cams, etc?

Any input is very much appreciated. I'm really hoping to bust 13's this year. It seems like it's all there, I'm just missing something. Also, below is a log of the run. Not sure where the knock came from, waiting in line must have heat soaked the car pretty good. And on a side note, I am very impressed with how the car handled the whole adventure. 70+ miles to the track, 4 WOT runs back to back, and then 70+ miles home with zero issues. If only it ran 13's it would be my idea of an excellent street-to-strip car. Overall, the car just seemed a lot slower than on the street and I'm looking to improve that. :coy:
 

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Yea that 60ft is terrible. Even sub par for a fwd. What i've always done was, as soon as you feel the car start to move even just a little bit, let it out all the way hard. Always had pretty good success with that method.

Do you have any launch control set up? Anti lag? Dialing in that launch rpm is a big deal too.

Are you on stock cams? I cant believe it will only hold 11 to redline on stock cams. That doesnt seem right at all. My buddy with 272's and a massive race fmic held closer to 20 on the small.

Also you may of had some heat soak going on. Did you let the car cool when you got to the track? And between runs?

The elevation will make a big difference, but you really should have a 13's car with those mods.
 
at 4800-5000 RPM you are targeting 5-6* of timing at full boost. Any reason for that? As soon as you shift, you jump right into these very low areas of timing, while running pretty rich. Those transitions need to be smooth. Try adding some timing in those areas.

On regular gas, I like to target 11.4-11.5ish AFR's. If your AEMWB is correct, you're running a bit rich for my taste.

2.4 60ft will get you nowhere fast. Right now, even a 1.8 60ft won't get you into the 13's.

Learn how to use that clutch or fix whatever issue you're having, lean it out, add some timing in those low areas, and fix that boost issue up top and you're good for 13's all day.

Get me a log with a 3rd gear pull from 2k rpm to redline as well.
 

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Yea that 60ft is terrible. Even sub par for a fwd. What i've always done was, as soon as you feel the car start to move even just a little bit, let it out all the way hard. Always had pretty good success with that method.

Do you have any launch control set up? Anti lag? Dialing in that launch rpm is a big deal too.

Are you on stock cams? I cant believe it will only hold 11 to redline on stock cams. That doesnt seem right at all. My buddy with 272's and a massive race fmic held closer to 20 on the small.

Also you may of had some heat soak going on. Did you let the car cool when you got to the track? And between runs?

The elevation will make a big difference, but you really should have a 13's car with those mods.

I'll try that with the clutch. I guess one day I'll have to find an abandoned stretch of road and actually practice launching without the nerves interfering.

I do have launch control, set to 4000RPM. I barely hit it in the video because the light was "surprise, it's time to go!". Which I know is a weak excuse because R/T has nothing to do with E/T in this case. Just nerves once again, it was my first time out.

The 11psi might be a tad off, I was going off of Link's estimate. I was more focused on driving than the gauges at nearly 100mph. Regardless, it still falls pretty quick and farther than I would like.

The car did have a chance to cool down for maybe 10 minutes. But I have virtually nothing in the way of heat protection. No heat shield, no vents, nothing. Just a big FMIC blocking the radiator.

Good to know I'm not crazy! :p It seems like the only thing standing in the way of me is myself. Thanks for the input!

at 4800-5000 RPM you are targeting 5-6* of timing at full boost. Any reason for that? As soon as you shift, you jump right into these very low areas of timing, while running pretty rich. Those transitions need to be smooth. Try adding some timing in those areas.

On regular gas, I like to target 11.4-11.5ish AFR's. If your AEMWB is correct, you're running a bit rich for my taste.

2.4 60ft will get you nowhere fast. Right now, even a 1.8 60ft won't get you into the 13's.

Learn how to use that clutch or fix whatever issue you're having, lean it out, add some timing in those low areas, and fix that boost issue up top and you're good for 13's all day.

Get me a log with a 3rd gear pull from 2k rpm to redline as well.

Thanks for the info! The reason for very low timing is knock. Doing 3rd gear pulls for tuning I was getting knock in those areas, even running stock Evo timing tables. So to combat the knock, I pulled timing which reduced the knock significantly. We are limited to 91 octane up here, but I'll definitely try leaning it out and play with the timing. Is it possible I'm knocking from running too rich? I did let out quite the puff of smoke between 1st and 2nd on 3/4 of the runs. The AEM gauge is mostly correct, it logs +/- .1 than it shows on the gauge. Thanks again for the tips! I'll take a new log tomorrow and throw it on here.
 
I would NOT suggest running it that lean on pump gas.

These cars like to have issues that lean on pump. Especially up here in colorado.
11.0 even is a good number and a little richer usually.

You have to remember your a MILE HIGH. For your mods and your car you won't get surprising times up here.

BOOST LEAK TEST is your friend.

If you lean it out I promise you that knock your getting will get worse.

I agree that your timing in the highlighted area looks funky. The one highlighted in particular.
Did you play with that table?
Did you play with your maf comp table?
Do you do your own tuning?
Looking at the tune you need some work.
I would put the stock 2g timing table in there and up the boost before adding any kind of timing to the mix. I would concentrate on getting your tune rock solid then maybe play with timing.
Do you have a boost controller? Turn that sucker up.
And oh did I mention boost leak test??
 
I would NOT suggest running it that lean on pump gas.

These cars like to have issues that lean on pump. Especially up here in colorado.
11.0 even is a good number and a little richer usually.

You have to remember your a MILE HIGH. For your mods and your car you won't get surprising times up here.

BOOST LEAK TEST is your friend.

If you lean it out I promise you that knock your getting will get worse.

I agree that your timing in the highlighted area looks funky. The one highlighted in particular.
Did you play with that table?
Did you play with your maf comp table?
Do you do your own tuning?
Looking at the tune you need some work.
I would put the stock 2g timing table in there and up the boost before adding any kind of timing to the mix. I would concentrate on getting your tune rock solid then maybe play with timing.
Do you have a boost controller? Turn that sucker up.
And oh did I mention boost leak test??

I'll take this into consideration as well. But from lurking around the track, the few other DSM's there weren't running anything spectacular compared to me, yet not one got below a 14 second run. I did tune the car myself (not going to pay $400 for a tune). There are absolutely zero leaks in the system. I tested it twice after the PR FMIC install, but I suppose another test won't hurt. Running the stock 2g timing table the ECU was pulling much more timing at stock boost level. That CEL was burning a hole in my skull. The Evo timing and fuel tables have helped out significantly and my own adjustments helped even more. The knock your seeing is not typical at all. I do believe I need to add much more timing down low though and take some fuel, I've always had the idea that anything over 11.1:1 is impossible up here, but never actually tried it.

So far the work list is a BLT, more timing, less fuel (conservatively), more boost (conservatively), and learn how to drive a car.
 
Definitely practice your launches. Easiest way I can describe how to do it is practice feeling where the clutch just starts to engage the car starts to roll forward. Then you can let it out pretty quick on street tires (you'll spin a little) and grip and go. If the car bogs because you're getting too much traction, raise the 2-step. For example: On a fully prepped track with slicks, I have the 2-step set to 6750 or 7000 depending on track temps. On street tires, I would start at 5250 and work my way up depending on traction.
 
Do yourself a favor and don't compare your car to other peoples times. Every car is different and many people you might be comparing to are at sea level or a LOT lower than us. Altitude kills.

So you were getting knock and added timing???
That is the opposite of what you should do. If you were getting knock you need to find out why. Its not because you have too little timing I promise you. Only e85 likes to act weird like that.
If you were knocking it was because you might be too lean or too rich.
You should play with fueling before you add timing.

Are you on the link forums? If so I suggest you post a log there to try to get help.
The level of expertise with link on there is immense and chances are you will get more in depth help there.
 
Thanks for the advice Dexter.

I'm using a Hallman Pro MBC

Im comparing times of DSMs running at the exact same place and time as me. One with no bigger than a 20g putting down 13 flat all night. I didn't add timing anywhere, I added the stock Evo timing tables which are less aggressive down low and ramp up faster. I was saying I could probably use some timing down low. I know my tune needs some work, but I'm not a complete idiot when it comes doing so.
 
Like mentioned earlier in the thread, the biggest issues are 60' times and low ass timing numbers that are completely uncalled for. The boost also seems to drop off more than it should.

Back in 2005, i ran my 14b at 13.4@99 on ~15-17 psi, even with a 1.8 60', non-eprom ecu, ssmic, 2.5in exhaust, full weight and used street tires on full pressure. The timeslip is in my profile but i haven't been back to the track with the talon since then. With your mods, you should see at least high 12's.
 
Something else to consider.. altitude might be ~5800-6000, but the corrected DA could be well over 9000ft today. So that in addition to the poor 60ft time would give you a mid 15 @ 95mph

Edit: DA for Bandimere today @ 0900 was listed as 8100'
 
improving your launch by .6\sec would get you alot closer to the 13 sec range, along with making sure you have quick smooth shifts.
 
Here are a few 3rd gear pulls from today. I never got quite to redline, but the pattern (or lack thereof) is obvious. I've been playing with the A/F ratio for now to try and get this sporadic and random knock under control. Rich, lean, it doesn't matter. Everything I do seems to just make it worse, yet I can sometimes do a WOT pull with zero to very little knock.

Here are the logs. Notice how the knock is never in a specific spot and varies in intensity and duration. These pulls were back to back within minutes of each other. If someone could please take a quick look at them and look for any holes in the tune that would cause this. I know my timing is very low (to try and combat the knock like stated earlier) but I'm truly starting to think its PK or a failing knock sensor.
 

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Your coolant temps are about 30* too high!

The 91 octane is a real problem!!!

That's real knock IMO. However its not high enough for me to do anything about if it was my tune. Consistent 2-2.5* is where I draw the line and change my tune. I have driven like that for years and I pulled the head a couple months ago and my pistons were perfect! Our KS are a little sensitive from what I understand.

Have you checked your base timing with a timing light?

A new OEM KS wouldn't hurt.

Try shimming your WG off the compressor cover with a couple washers to preload it and help it hold up top.
 
Are you using 2-step? What is it set at? Are you going to use antilag to get more boost out of the hole? (you wouldn't need much with a s16g):hmm:

His 2 step is set at 5k.

I think he has a pre-turbo exhaust leak or his WG flapper is partially hung open. My HX-35 hit 20 psi at the same rpm as his 16g when I had the DSM bolt on housing. Maybe elevation is the sole factor in that, but I'm not sure...
 
I don't know, coolant temps are 210*F which is normal with stock thermostat, at least on a 1g it is. Your boost is not falling to 11psi, it's falling to about 18 psi at around 6000 rpm. At 5000 rpm it's about 20 psi. I don't see knock sum available in the displayed values, why is that? I don't have ECMlink so there's a lot I don't know about it.
What I see that looks funny is that between log 1 and log 2, at the same MAF raw, Log1 shows a lot higher hp estimate than log 2 does. But I don't see why. Everything else looks the same - boost, timing, knock retard, AFR, front O2, cool temp, inlet temp, MAF, MAFraw, rpm, inj duty. Yet in log 1 when MAFraw is around 2000hz the hp is about 250 - which sounds about right to me and should get you a lot quicker than 15.5 sec quarters. Then in log2 when MAFraw is around 2000hz the hp is only about 210. Now that hp is consistent with 15.5 sec quarters! But I don't know why the hp estimate should be so low in log 2 when the parameters I see are all the same.
 
I looked at log 3. 1.1* of timing retard isnt crazy. Maybe its time for a colder spark plug or maybe tighten up the gap. I see that you're activating the knock sensor >3000rpm. Perhaps there is an issue with your knock sensor or maybe your plugs/wires.

Try a BPR7ES with a tighter gap. I've done as tight as .018 on BPR8ES on the stock ignition and it ran fine at 35+psi. Experiment with it a bit.
 
Are you using 2-step? What is it set at? Are you going to use antilag to get more boost out of the hole? (you wouldn't need much with a s16g):hmm:

Yes, the night I ran the 15.5 the Launch Control was set to 4000 and I was being a complete noob with the new clutch. LC is now set at 5000 and rips all 4 from a dig with some practice.

His 2 step is set at 5k.

I think he has a pre-turbo exhaust leak or his WG flapper is partially hung open. My HX-35 hit 20 psi at the same rpm as his 16g when I had the DSM bolt on housing. Maybe elevation is the sole factor in that, but I'm not sure...

Funny you should mention that. My waste gate was sitting a bit open (which was very noticeable with my old open dump) so I shimmed the wastegate with 2 standard size washers and cured the problem. Zero leaks at the manifold or pre turbo, but I know I have a leak post downpipe right after the wideband sensor (shouldn't hurt performance since its post WB, right?). If I'm not mistaken, my low timing can cause serious lag, especially when starting at 2k in 3rd gear. Otherwise I have great spool and am boosting full time when racing, zero lag between shifts.

I don't know, coolant temps are 210*F which is normal with stock thermostat, at least on a 1g it is. Your boost is not falling to 11psi, it's falling to about 18 psi at around 6000 rpm. At 5000 rpm it's about 20 psi. I don't see knock sum available in the displayed values, why is that? I don't have ECMlink so there's a lot I don't know about it.
What I see that looks funny is that between log 1 and log 2, at the same MAF raw, Log1 shows a lot higher hp estimate than log 2 does. But I don't see why. Everything else looks the same - boost, timing, knock retard, AFR, front O2, cool temp, inlet temp, MAF, MAFraw, rpm, inj duty. Yet in log 1 when MAFraw is around 2000hz the hp is about 250 - which sounds about right to me and should get you a lot quicker than 15.5 sec quarters. Then in log2 when MAFraw is around 2000hz the hp is only about 210. Now that hp is consistent with 15.5 sec quarters! But I don't know why the hp estimate should be so low in log 2 when the parameters I see are all the same.

You are correct about the boost falling, watching my gauge today it never dropped below 17psi. Guess I was being over dramatic. LOL. I wasn't aware knock sum could be logged. I'll definitely look into it. From my understanding only timing retard due to knock can be logged, but like I said I'm not certain. My coolant temps range from about 206-210 with fans always on and the 170* thermostat "modded" with one very small hole drilled in the flange.

As for HP estimate and MAF reading, you raise a very interesting point. Even with zero boost leaks I have always had to drop tons of fuel from the fuel sliders and add HZ to the MAF table (as I'm sure you can see). My fuel trims aren't perfect, but still within decent parameters to my knowledge. But, even the HP estimate was higher running 10-15psi than it is now. I was supposedly making 280hp when now I'm lucky to see over 260. Is it possible the MAF is bad or just very poorly calibrated?

I looked at log 3. 1.1* of timing retard isnt crazy. Maybe its time for a colder spark plug or maybe tighten up the gap. I see that you're activating the knock sensor >3000rpm. Perhaps there is an issue with your knock sensor or maybe your plugs/wires.

Try a BPR7ES with a tighter gap. I've done as tight as .018 on BPR8ES on the stock ignition and it ran fine at 35+psi. Experiment with it a bit.

I'm currently running BPR7ES's gapped at .20 as recommended. I had some parts store Champions with out-of-the-box gaps in before, but switching to these didn't seem to help much. My wires have seen better days (NGK Blue wires) but I don't have any known misfire issues. I'll try to pull in the gap a point or two and see if it helps. But I totally agree that it might be time for a new Mitsu knock sensor. The current one has never been replaced to my knowledge so it could probably stand to be replaced.

I appreciate all the responses! This is really some helpful info and food for thought. I will consider all the advice and get to work tomorrow on some experimenting. A couple of random questions: Could engine internals contribute to knock readings? I have 14 revised lifters and two stock (thanks to the machine shop) which tick like crazy. Could this set off the knock sensor? Could a looser than spec PTW clearance cause knock issues? The machinist followed Manley's specs to the T, but in retrospect Manley has been known to call for very loose clearances. The engine burns zero oil and the blow-by is so minimal the clear hose to the catch can has just begun to collect oil after nearly 3000 miles. Just trying to think of other possibilities. Thanks again for the thoughts!
 
Actually, from what I see in the logs...you are adding tons of fuel thru the MAF calibration and then pulling fuel with the fuel sliders because of it. In the end, your wideband's AFR's are all that really matter, but your MAF readings are skewed and everything else in the tune will not line up. Some care about that, some don't.

Read this carefully. DSMlink MAS/MAF Calibration Page

Don't be afraid to adjust global fuel to get desired AFR's. The global fuel suggestions for injectors are only suggestions and the end results can be much different, which is OK.

Pull that knock sensor and inspect it. You may just find that the glue or "goo" on the back is falling out or whatever. I change my knock sensor almost every other season. Its just one of the maintenance things I do.
 
What you did wrong is not buy my car. My FWD NA 420a runs quicker =P. Honestly looks like the main problem (already stated a million times) is you need to learn to launch
 
A couple of random questions: Could engine internals contribute to knock readings? I have 14 revised lifters and two stock (thanks to the machine shop) which tick like crazy. Could this set off the knock sensor? Could a looser than spec PTW clearance cause knock issues? The machinist followed Manley's specs to the T, but in retrospect Manley has been known to call for very loose clearances. The engine burns zero oil and the blow-by is so minimal the clear hose to the catch can has just begun to collect oil after nearly 3000 miles. Just trying to think of other possibilities. Thanks again for the thoughts!

I would sure go for a new OEM knock sensor as a first step. That was practically the first thing that the local DSM shop here did to my car, the first time they saw it.
As for the internals being noisy - it's kind of scary to think that the wonderful forged internals could be noisy enough to screw up the knock sensing, isn't it? I'm still on stock pistons and oil squirters so I haven't gone through this yet. But there's plenty of people in here who have so hopefully you can get some advise from them. I wonder if you still have oil squirters (which would cool the pistons and also put more oil on the cylinder walls) and I wonder if your bearing clearances are such that you could use a thicker oil like a 20w-50. PTW dynamics and just about everything else internal should be quieter with thicker oil, and with a high ZDDP oil like Brad Penn.
I log knock sensor voltage as well as knock sum. When I get a knock event, I see a sudden spike in the knock voltage, the knock sum jumps from 0 to something, the timing retard kicks in, and the knock voltage goes back down to "engine noise" level very fast, the knock sum steps back down to 0 more slowly. What I see in your log is not like that, your knock retard comes in at around 3500-4000 rpm, is at a very low level, and just kind of stays that way through the remainder of the pull. Seems like this could be due to either a bad knock sensor, or the noise from engine internals being right at the threshold where your ecu considers it to be real knock.
 
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