HTA68 vs HTA Green

carvinbassplyr · Jul 11, 2012

Been reading every article I can find about this comparison, not really satisfied with the info I've found so far...lacks context. Both turbos are well able to make my 350awhp goal with the HAT68 at 49lbs/min and Tue HAT Green at 54lbs/min, so that is not the issue. I'm more concerned about each turbo's behaviors. I DD my car and fall more to the auto-x/street course driving style so spool time coming out of the corners is crucial to me, but I don't want to sacrifice more top end than I have to. Obviously HAT68 is the quicker spooler of the 2, but by how much? The HTA Green might be a tad overkill for 350 awhp, but if I didn't have to sacrifice much spool time then why not have the extra headroom ya know? Just thinking out loud, any experience with either of these turbo would be a big help!

Bud92gsx · Jul 11, 2012

If moolah is is an issue, I would just go with a 20g from a supporting freelancer.

The green and 68hta are not wallet friendly. turbos.But do flow very nice and do make the power with room to grow.With cams only, untuned, a member here made 284 hp on a 20g.

carvinbassplyr · Jul 11, 2012

Bud92gsx said:
If moolah is is an issue, I would just go with a 20g from a supporting freelancer.

The green and 68hta are not wallet friendly. turbos.But do flow very nice and do make the power with room to grow.With cams only, untuned, a member here made 284 hp on a 20g.

I explored building a turbo from pj91gsx when I thought that the E316G and TD05H 20G were my only options for quick spoiling 350 awhp. While he was extremely knowledgeable and very helpful, what I gathered was that the E316G would be on the ragged edge on 93 octane and the TD05H 20G falls off too much up top making it more of a dedicated midrange, road course turbo. HTA68 would spool quicker than both and the new HTA Green probably the same or just a hair slower than the E316G. There are plenty of both turbos used on forums for under $1000 (the price of a new E316G). If a TD05H spooled quick enough to be worth the top end loss maybe it would be a good option.

907dsm · Jul 11, 2012

Buddy of mine just brought a HTA green and it's an awesome turbo I think. Spool was about 3700-4000ish, he has a port and polished head with hks 272's. I hope that is a little useful information.

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Alex

'97boostinGST · Jul 11, 2012

I know my info won't help a lot, but I own an HTA Green, I deffinately haven't pushed it to hold its title but it's a kickass turbo. You can feel the push when boost kicks in, then again I did own a t25

JusMX141 · Jul 11, 2012

carvinbassplyr said:
I explored building a turbo from jusmux91

Who?

carvinbassplyr said:
what I gathered was that the E316G would be on the ragged edge on 93 octane and the TD05H 20G falls off too much up top making it more of a dedicated midrange, road course turbo.

TD05H 20G will not fall off on top any more than a 68HTA. They're virtually the same turbo using all of the same parts with the exception of the compressor wheel. Think of the 68HTA as a refined Sleeper 16G / Bastard 20G with a billet compressor wheel that can offer a few more lb/min over a standard 20G due to a more efficient compressor. If you decide this small compressor upgrade is worth the additional price, then so be it...but saying the 68HTA is capable where the TD05H 20G is not would be complete hogwash.

carvinbassplyr said:
HTA68 would spool quicker than both...

Doubt it would outspool an Evo III 16G....let's just say the 68HTA would fall in the 3600-3800 range.

carvinbassplyr said:
...and the new HTA Green probably the same or just a hair slower than the E316G.

The HTA Green is a completely different turbo. HUGE difference in turbine and compressor spec than any of the other turbos in this discussion. Once you jump to the TD06H-spec turbine, you're talking about seeing boost in the 4K+ range no matter what compressor is on it. Of course this varies by turbo, tune, supporting mods, and gear selection- it's easier to generate boost in a higher gear with more engine load, so a turbo like this may see boost in a range of 3800 in 5th or 4200 in 2nd.

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

Who?

Sorry auto-correct on my phone changed it. The members name is pj91gsx. Many here have used him to build turbos for them.

TD05H 20G will not fall off on top any more than a 68HTA. They're virtually the same turbo using all of the same parts with the exception of the compressor wheel. Think of the 68HTA as a refined Sleeper 16G / Bastard 20G with a billet compressor wheel that can offer a few more lb/min over a standard 20G due to a more efficient compressor. If you decide this small compressor upgrade is worth the additional price, then so be it...but saying the 68HTA is capable where the TD05H 20G is not would be complete hogwash.

The larger compressor wheel in a normal TD05H 20G quickly "outruns" the smaller turbine wheel causing it to fall off very quickly beyond 5500K. In essence you've got a laggy turbo with a quite narrow power band

Doubt it would outspool an Evo III 16G....let's just say the 68HTA would fall in the 3600-3800 range.

If I'm not mistaken the billet wheel is lighter and thus takes weight off the rotating mass giving you much quicker spool. (It's been compared to that of a small 16G)

The HTA Green is a completely different turbo. HUGE difference in turbine and compressor spec than any of the other turbos in this discussion. Once you jump to the TD06H-spec turbine, you're talking about seeing boost in the 4K+ range no matter what compressor is on it. Of course this varies by turbo, tune, supporting mods, and gear selection- it's easier to generate boost in a higher gear with more engine load, so a turbo like this may see boost in a range of 3800 in 5th or 4200 in 2nd.

I wouldn't recommend doing a pull in 5th gear unless you wanna say bye bye to your powertrain...too much load. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong so please don't get that impression. I'm just meeting your opinions/facts with others that I have read on other forums and FP's website in order to find the best compromise for my performance wants/needs. Because it's a DD and I lean more towards the auto-x/street course style driving, I would like to have as little lag as possible coming out of corners without having to sacrifice too much top end and still make 350 awhp so I can keep pace (not race) with my friends vettes and and fox-bodies on the highway. I know that 350 awhp has been done on E316G's but rarely on 93. Yes a TDO5H 20G would get me there power-wise but now we're getting into considerable lag for a modest increase in power over a E316G. The 68HTA outperforms both those turbos spool wise and should easily make my power goals. Then, like I said before, if the HTA Green isn't to much laggier why not have the extra headroom considering the HTA Green is cheaper than the 68HTA brand new.

SpiderGST · Jul 12, 2012

I hit full boost at around 3200 on my HTA68. Just giving you an opinion. The HTA wheels are designed to be more efficient at higher boost levels. They love 25psi.

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

SpiderGST said:
I hit full boost at around 3200 on my HTA68. Just giving you an opinion. The HTA wheels are designed to be more efficient at higher boost levels. They love 25psi.

How does the boost hold to redline? What kind of power are you putting down?

bcjjones · Jul 12, 2012

One thing im curious about from this discussion is how the conversion from a big/evo 16g to a 20g compares to the 68hta? I mean if spool and power range are in deed a concern and complaint with a tdo5 20g, wouldnt the converted 16g give you better spool and power range? Maybe a good(not better) and cheaper comparison to the 68hta?

xxNocturnalxx · Jul 12, 2012

I recently ran my 20g, made 286whp at 13psi. I cant really say much about the spool time because I forgot to plug 2 bolt holes but it seems to make good power at low boost, that's all I can really say at the moment LOL

.

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

bcjjones said:
One thing im curious about from this discussion is how the conversion from a big/evo 16g to a 20g compares to the 68hta? I mean if spool and power range are in deed a concern and complaint with a tdo5 20g, wouldnt the converted 16g give you better spool and power range? Maybe a good(not better) and cheaper comparison to the 68hta?

I'm a little confused as to what you're saying...yes, any 16G (small, big or E3) should have good spool time. Will they make 350 awhp on 93 and hold to redline....MAYBE the E3, if you're a wizard LOL

gofer · Jul 12, 2012

I just want to mention that everyone posting in here saying "I hit full boost @ XXXX rpm" means ABSOLUTELY nothing and doesn't provide any useful information.

I'm hitting 30psi @ 4.2k with my HTA68 (mods list is in my profile) and logging 48lbs/min at 7.5k.

This is what the dyno logged when I was still running my stock 2g exhaust manifold, it spools a bit faster now with the FP race manifold on there and a functioning bov (my HKS SSQV was blowing open on the dyno so it slowed spool up). When I bought my HTA68 from FP I also had them port it so that too will effect spool up...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/413943-fp-68hta-vs-fp-green.html

SpiderGST · Jul 12, 2012

carvinbassplyr said:
How does the boost hold to redline? What kind of power are you putting down?

It only dropped about 3-4psi. I never had a chance to go to the dyno before I tore into the car again. So I can't really tell you what hp I was making.

sniperelite · Jul 12, 2012

carvinbassplyr said:
"I wouldn't recommend doing a pull in 5th gear unless you wanna say bye bye to your powertrain...too much load." ".... I would like to have as little lag as possible coming out of corners without having to sacrifice too much top end and still make 350 awhp so I can keep up with my friends vettes and and fox-bodies on the highway."

This gave me a good laugh

Please explain why you would rather choose to do a pull in 1st than 5th if you are scared of the powertrain going?? Common sense tells you that in 1st gear there is much more force/strain on all of your drivetrain components because of how quick you are accelerating from a stop.

And some food for thought ...How do you expect to keep up with your friends on the highway if you never pull in 5th??? Get ready to see them waving bye-bye to you after 65mph in that case pal. :thumb:

94awdcoupe · Jul 12, 2012

I just want to mention that everyone posting in here saying "I hit full boost @ XXXX rpm" means ABSOLUTELY nothing and doesn't provide any useful information.

I agree with above statement. I made a post about my spool data a couple years ago. since then I have never seen anyone else offer the same data. but to answer the OP question. the hta green is far laggier than 20g or hta68 or EF1 (best option)

This is some interesting spool data. Not often do you see what spool is for each gear. Actually never. So if you want to hear it like everyone else posts this data the car gets full boost at 3800rpm in 4th gear. Now if want to read about some real data read on. The car is my evo 1. It has a 2.3 liter at 9/1 compression. The turbo is HTA green from evo X. The manifold is from evo X as well. The runners are smaller than evo8/9 but the exhaust housing is 12.5cm so it eqauls out pretty much. The car weighs about 3000 with driver. Comparring my logs to others that have been to the track this car will run about ~11.2 at 127 on its current tune at 21psi. The gear ratio in car is about equal to an EVO8 with the 4.86 rear installed. Car is a blast to drive around town. very quick car. Everyone who has been in car comments on how fast the car spools. Even Chris RYUEVOIX went for a ride recently and he was commenting on how he would love to have a daily this responsive. Car is also smooth and quiet like day you drove your evo home from dealer. I have driven Chris's car and it makes stupid fast torque by most definitions. It made 580tq at 4100rpm on last dyno runs. Yet his car does not feel as responsive as my car. It has far less responce in the 2500rpm-4000rpm ranges. and boost recovery above 4000rpm is no were near as quick. Actually after driving his car I cant wait to get behind the wheel of the little blue car. The difference of "fun to drive" is quite stark between the two cars.

Now for the spool data. When I first got this turbo I was running a 11/1 2.0 on E85. I first ran turbo at wastegate boost 14psi and I was very displeased with boost response. Felt very slow below 4000rpm. Boost build was very slow. I then cranked boost to 20psi. It felt better but was still very disappointed. When I finally got boost to 29psi a whole different beast emerged. The spool speed litterally trippled in speed from wastegate boost. I wish I had data to show or quote from but I dont. the difference here was obviously the internal gate characteristics. The longer the gate stays on seat the faster your spool will be. The instant the gate leaves seat the twin scroll effect is lost. I am just going to esimate crudely from memeory so you get an idea of what I am talking about. at 18psi it took about a second to go from 8-18psi. at 30psi it took about 1/3rd of second to go from 15psi to 30psi. Difference was shocking. Now for important observation on my part. Even at 30psi on the turbo the boost responce was a disappointment for me below 4000rpm. I felt I bought too much turbo for the car and wished I had gone for the HTA68. The responce in 1-3 gears was unsatifactory for me. Here I wish I had data for you but it will make sense in next paragraph.

The 2.0 engine bent a rod so I opted to upsize engine to 2.3 and downsize fuel to 93 octane. My current spool data is as follows. These numbers are from 100% throttle 2000rpm in each gear. 18.5 psi arrives at the following rpms
5th=3200rpm
4th=3800rpm
3rd=4400rpm
2nd=5000rpm
1st=5600rpm
boost recovery is very fast. I often see 8-18psi take less than 1/10th second!

So you see how I might be dissappointed in spool with the engine of 2.0 size. these numbers would have been 3-400rpm higher.

Hope some find this data as interesting as I do. happy boosting!

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JusMX141 · Jul 12, 2012

carvinbassplyr said:
The larger compressor wheel in a normal TD05H 20G quickly "outruns" the smaller turbine wheel causing it to fall off very quickly beyond 5500K. In essence you've got a laggy turbo with a quite narrow power band

What do you think will happen with a 68HTA?

Again, the 20G is only slightly laggier than an Evo III 16G. Many would not even notice the difference unless you were literally running them back to back. So if you're worried about narrowing the powerband by 100-200 rpms, then the HTA Green is DEFINITELY out of the question.

carvinbassplyr said:
If I'm not mistaken the billet wheel is lighter and thus takes weight off the rotating mass giving you much quicker spool. (It's been compared to that of a small 16G)

I don't think it's possible for any wheel with a 68mm exducer to spool as quickly as a Small 16G with a 60mm exducer. You're still fighting rotational mass, and the fact that billet aluminum is denser and heavier with less air pockets in the material than cast. Sure it's stronger and can be machined thinner, but the end result will not be 42R airflow with the spool of a T25.

carvinbassplyr said:
I wouldn't recommend doing a pull in 5th gear unless you wanna say bye bye to your powertrain...too much load.

I was talking boost response; how quickly the turbo responds in different gears based on engine load.

carvinbassplyr said:
Because it's a DD and I lean more towards the auto-x/street course style driving, I would like to have as little lag as possible coming out of corners without having to sacrifice too much top end and still make 350 awhp

Then any of these turbos we're discussing, with the exception of the HTA Green, are what you're looking for.

carvinbassplyr said:
Yes a TDO5H 20G would get me there power-wise but now we're getting into considerable lag for a modest increase in power over a E316G.

"Modest" being 3-4 lb/min? That's a significant increase in airflow while barely changing spool at all. Hell a 20G compressor's inducer is only .170" larger than an Evo III 16G....the exducer remains the same. I just don't see how in your mind the 20G is far out in left field airflow-wise.

carvinbassplyr said:
The 68HTA outperforms both those turbos spool wise and should easily make my power goals.

Where is this information proving the 68HTA to outspool an Evo III 16G in back-to-back testing?

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

sniperelite said:
This gave me a good laugh

Please explain why you would rather choose to do a pull in 1st than 5th if you are scared of the powertrain going?? Common sense tells you that in 1st gear there is much more force/strain on all of your drivetrain components because of how quick you are accelerating from a stop.

And some food for thought ...How do you expect to keep up with your friends on the highway if you never pull in 5th??? Get ready to see them waving bye-bye to you after 65mph in that case pal.

Ok, since you CLEARLY misinterpreted what I said and were so eager to show off your "intelect" that you jumped the gun...If you're up to speed sure. If you're not and you use fifth to accerlate from a lower speed onto a highway (35-40 roll), the motor bogs down and KABOOM you may not feel so "smart" ya dig?

sniperelite said:
Please explain why you would rather choose to do a pull in 1st than 5th if you are scared of the powertrain going??

That's just asinine to jump from pulling in 5th all the way to pulling in 1st...I would think 4th or even 3rd if your speed is low enough. Even automatic trans' will down shift to quickly accelerate on the highway...think maybe there's a reason for that? :ohdamn:

JusMX141 said:
What do you think will happen with a 68HTA?

Again, the 20G is only slightly laggier than an Evo III 16G. Many would not even notice the difference unless you were literally running them back to back. So if you're worried about narrowing the powerband by 100-200 rpms, then the HTA Green is DEFINITELY out of the question.

I don't think it's possible for any wheel with a 68mm exducer to spool as quickly as a Small 16G with a 60mm exducer. You're still fighting rotational mass, and the fact that billet aluminum is denser and heavier with less air pockets in the material than cast. Sure it's stronger and can be machined thinner, but the end result will not be 42R airflow with the spool of a T25.

I was talking boost response; how quickly the turbo responds in different gears based on engine load.

Then any of these turbos we're discussing, with the exception of the HTA Green, are what you're looking for.

"Modest" being 3-4 lb/min? That's a significant increase in airflow while barely changing spool at all. Hell a 20G compressor's inducer is only .170" larger than an Evo III 16G....the exducer remains the same. I just don't see how in your mind the 20G is far out in left field airflow-wise.

Where is this information proving the 68HTA to outspool an Evo III 16G in back-to-back testing?

A lot of it has come from the guy I've been working with to build my car. His recommendation was actually to get fab'd exhaust manifold and use an evo 8 turbo to make use of the twin scroll design to get even quicker spool. His thoughts are that the aero on the 20G is outdated and that the TD05H 20G's lag/hp increase ratio isn't worth it and would suck for auto-x stuff. He was the one who even pointed me in the direction of FP turbos to begin with and more specifically the 68HTA. He doesn't deny that that 350 awhp can be had on an E316G but most likely you're running E85, meth or have a high compression motor...none of which I am interested in doing.

bcjjones · Jul 12, 2012

carvinbassplyr said:
I'm a little confused as to what you're saying...yes, any 16G (small, big or E3) should have good spool time. Will they make 350 awhp on 93 and hold to redline....MAYBE the E3, if you're a wizard

Im sorry, i was meaning the big 16g or E3 converted to a 20g. From what i've read, this conversion will yield a faster spool than the td05 20g while still having the flow rate of one. Which I was saying might be a good option and comparison to the 68hta. Might not flow as much but would be much cheaper and still have a quicker spool then the td05 20g while being able to easily meet your goals.

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

94awdcoupe said:
I just want to mention that everyone posting in here saying "I hit full boost @ XXXX rpm" means ABSOLUTELY nothing and doesn't provide any useful information.

I agree with above statement. I made a post about my spool data a couple years ago. since then I have never seen anyone else offer the same data. but to answer the OP question. the hta green is far laggier than 20g or hta68 or EF1 (best option)

This is some interesting spool data. Not often do you see what spool is for each gear. Actually never. So if you want to hear it like everyone else posts this data the car gets full boost at 3800rpm in 4th gear. Now if want to read about some real data read on. The car is my evo 1. It has a 2.3 liter at 9/1 compression. The turbo is HTA green from evo X. The manifold is from evo X as well. The runners are smaller than evo8/9 but the exhaust housing is 12.5cm so it eqauls out pretty much. The car weighs about 3000 with driver. Comparring my logs to others that have been to the track this car will run about ~11.2 at 127 on its current tune at 21psi. The gear ratio in car is about equal to an EVO8 with the 4.86 rear installed. Car is a blast to drive around town. very quick car. Everyone who has been in car comments on how fast the car spools. Even Chris RYUEVOIX went for a ride recently and he was commenting on how he would love to have a daily this responsive. Car is also smooth and quiet like day you drove your evo home from dealer. I have driven Chris's car and it makes stupid fast torque by most definitions. It made 580tq at 4100rpm on last dyno runs. Yet his car does not feel as responsive as my car. It has far less responce in the 2500rpm-4000rpm ranges. and boost recovery above 4000rpm is no were near as quick. Actually after driving his car I cant wait to get behind the wheel of the little blue car. The difference of "fun to drive" is quite stark between the two cars.

Now for the spool data. When I first got this turbo I was running a 11/1 2.0 on E85. I first ran turbo at wastegate boost 14psi and I was very displeased with boost response. Felt very slow below 4000rpm. Boost build was very slow. I then cranked boost to 20psi. It felt better but was still very disappointed. When I finally got boost to 29psi a whole different beast emerged. The spool speed litterally trippled in speed from wastegate boost. I wish I had data to show or quote from but I dont. the difference here was obviously the internal gate characteristics. The longer the gate stays on seat the faster your spool will be. The instant the gate leaves seat the twin scroll effect is lost. I am just going to esimate crudely from memeory so you get an idea of what I am talking about. at 18psi it took about a second to go from 8-18psi. at 30psi it took about 1/3rd of second to go from 15psi to 30psi. Difference was shocking. Now for important observation on my part. Even at 30psi on the turbo the boost responce was a disappointment for me below 4000rpm. I felt I bought too much turbo for the car and wished I had gone for the HTA68. The responce in 1-3 gears was unsatifactory for me. Here I wish I had data for you but it will make sense in next paragraph.

The 2.0 engine bent a rod so I opted to upsize engine to 2.3 and downsize fuel to 93 octane. My current spool data is as follows. These numbers are from 100% throttle 2000rpm in each gear. 18.5 psi arrives at the following rpms
5th=3200rpm
4th=3800rpm
3rd=4400rpm
2nd=5000rpm
1st=5600rpm
boost recovery is very fast. I often see 8-18psi take less than 1/10th second!

So you see how I might be dissappointed in spool with the engine of 2.0 size. these numbers would have been 3-400rpm higher.

Hope some find this data as interesting as I do. happy boosting!
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This was actualy EXTREMELY useful to me...the biggest factor that you point out is that you're running a 2.3L motor. A 2.0L won't spool a 20G as fast whether it's TD05H, TD06H or a green and that was/is my biggest concern. Sure a 2.5L scooby can spool a TD06H 20G like a 16G, DUH

bcjjones said:
Im sorry, i was meaning the big 16g or E3 converted to a 20g. From what i've read, this conversion will yield a faster spool than the td05 20g while still having the flow rate of one. Which I was saying might be a good option and comparison to the 68hta. Might not flow as much but would be much cheaper and still have a quicker spool then the td05 20g while being able to easily meet your goals.

Interesting, never even heard of that option/idea...I will have to investigate that further, might be exactly what I need.

agentorange313 · Jul 12, 2012

bcjjones said:
Im sorry, i was meaning the big 16g or E3 converted to a 20g. From what i've read, this conversion will yield a faster spool than the td05 20g while still having the flow rate of one. Which I was saying might be a good option and comparison to the 68hta. Might not flow as much but would be much cheaper and still have a quicker spool then the td05 20g while being able to easily meet your goals.

I am confused by your post.

Are you saying there is a benefit from converting a Big16g or Evo316g turbo to have a 20g compressor wheel?

That combination is a TD05 20g....., a 20g compressor combined with a TD05 turbhine wheel found in MHI turbos (14b, 16g, Big16g, Evo316g, and factory 20g with t3 td05 housing).

Just like Justin has been stating, the spool will be around the same, and when I say around, I mean the difference will be not noticeable.

carvinbassplyr said:
Interesting, never even heard of that option/idea...I will have to investigate that further, might be exactly what I need.

If thats your response to the post made above, then i think you are missing the point of a lot of this thread being that the TD05 20g has been mentioned several times already as an alternative turbo for your goal.

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

agentorange313 said:
If thats your response to the post made above, then i think you are missing the point of a lot of this thread being that the TD05 20g has been mentioned several times already.

I thought maybe he was talking about doing it a different way...maching the E316G housing to accept a 20G compressor wheel maybe...
I dunno? YES the TD05H has been mentioned several times, but my point was 68HTA vs HTA Green and if you bring up the TD05H 20G it should be to say how it stacks up to these 2 turbos.

jmartinez1228 · Jul 12, 2012

In your profile it doesn't say if your head is ported. I would look into doing that as you are running fp2's you would benefit from it and it would help spool either turbo quicker. Plus you are running a evo intake mani which sounds like a + to me.

Personally I would go with the green just for the sake of you wanting more power in the future. I know you say you are dd/autox but what if you get bored and want more? Your bottom end will hold it and it doesn't make sense to spend money twice. HTA green ftw!!

carvinbassplyr · Jul 12, 2012

jmartinez1228 said:
Your bottom end will hold it and it doesn't make sense to spend money twice.

This is exactly why I ask these kind of questions...i'd like to be 1 and done when it comes to buying a turbo setup...don't really feel like paying for a turbo 3 times if I don't have to.

dsmdeliveryboy · Jul 12, 2012

These turbos are not even close to being comparable, one is a tdo5 turbo and the other is a tdo6. They are both in completely different categories, why anyone would compare the two is besides me. The 68HTA is almost the same as a 20g, doubt anyone really could tell a difference. Justin was pretty good at explaining it all, I don't understand what more answers anyone needs except to argue and try and prove a point.

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