Hey guys,
I've had my LC-1 for about 4 years and never thought to have an issue with it. After I installed it everything seemed to be accurate. However I did some dyno tuning, and the shop hooked up there innovate sensor to my tail pipe and found that my sensor is displaying a .7-1 richer then they're WB. so we hooked up log works and the afr readings off log works damn near match's the WB at my tail pipe, so i know my sensor is working correctly, plus I just replaced the sensor before the dyno tune with a calibration.

i have the DB gauge, and now I'm trying to figure out why my gauge is reading differently then what the sensor is reading.
I opened up all my wiring to see how I wired this 4 years ago and here's what it did.

Sensor wiring
Red - fuse box 10amp
Blue - ground
White - ground
Yellow - front o2 input on ecu
Brown - rear o2 input on ecu and white wire for gauge
Black - led

DB gauge wiring (innovate motorsports text)
Red - same power source as sensor
Black - ground
White - brown on sensor
Yellow - ground

All the grounds soldered together and bolted to the firewall.

I'm running v 2.5 dsmlink with v 3 software

I did some research here the other night and came across this thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-electrical-wiring/421002-innovate-lc-1-installation-options.html where it mentions the following hook up for my setup;

Narrowband simulation install (DB gauge, Logging, ECMlink v3 setup) [LC-1 sensor placed in front o2 spot]
Red wire – 12v accessory power source (e.g. cigarette lighter or radio)
Blue wire – chassis ground
White wire - ECU sensor ground (pin 92)
Brown – ECU pin 76 (ECU Pinout - http://www.dsmlink.com/images/forums/2GECUPinout.pdf)
Yellow – DB gauge's white wire
(*Must reprogram Analog Out 1 values to match Analog Out 2 values using LM Config 3.15. Screenshots and software - innovatelc1orlm1install [ECMTuning - wiki])
Black – Calibration push button to monitoring LED to ground
*Note – The brown and yellow wires can be swapped in this scenario.

This is different then how I have it hooked up, is this b/c this is for v 3 dsmlink or would it be the same for v 2 and 3? And being that I have mine hooked up different do you think this could be where my discrepancy is coming from?

I appreciate the help
Thank you

Yes, the discrepancy you're seeing is between v2 and v3. v3 can do internal narrowband sim based off the wideband input, where v2.5 can't so you need to input the LC-1's yellow wire (narrowband signal).

No, that difference in setup shouldn't cause the discrepancy.

so everything is hooked up correct? could this be a grounding issue maybe?

Im going to check my grounds and soldering this weekend, im having exact same issue. Dif thread. If i find a way to fix mine ill post in here too. GL to ya.

I had some time last night to play around with it and here's what i did.

Made sure I had a good ground, all ground wires soldered together and bolted to the fire wall.

logged into LM configuration, used the factory default settings
After this I found at idle DB gauge is saying high 15's to low 16's :1. My log works says high 14's to low 15's :1

I decided to play around with the settings in LM config. I left analog 1 alone with these settings

1 volt at 14 afr
0 volts at 15.4 afr

I played with analog 2 settings. I first set it back to default factory settings and adjusted from there.

I first tried

0 volt at 8 afr
5 volts at 22.35 (this # I left the default setting and only played with the 0 volt option first) I didn’t notice really any chance.
I changed the 8 to a 9 and still no real change.
Now I left the 0 volts at 9 afr b/c it now match's the dsmlink wiki and started adjusting the 5 volts option. This is where is started to see a change.

I adjusted it down to 5 volts at 20.5 afr and my db gauge closely match's my log works afr's. Still not 100% yet but I think I’m on the right track?

Does anyone see any cons in me adjusting these settings outside the parameters of what the wiki says?
I’m also curious to know for the guys running the lc-1, does the log works afr match there gauge afr's? It kind of defeats the purpose in having a WB if the gauge read out doesn’t match the sensor.

Thanks for the help.

I think you're approaching this wrong and need to be focusing on getting the logged reading to match the gauge. If you have the brown wire fed into the gauge and have the stock analog 2 settings, then it should be correct. I've never heard of anyone having this setup and having the gauge reading wrong.

my brown wire is going to my rear O2 sensor input on the ecu and the gauge, should the brown wire only be going to the gauge?

No, you can have it split like that. But as long as you have the analog 2 values in LM Programmer set to factory numbers, then you should be adjusting the logged value to read like the gauge. The gauge is getting a direct signal from the sensor and shouldn't be reading something other than the true value. The software is interpreting the signal and can have variance (as seen commonly in AEM units).

snowborder714 said:

No, you can have it split like that. But as long as you have the analog 2 values in LM Programmer set to factory numbers, then you should be adjusting the logged value to read like the gauge. The gauge is getting a direct signal from the sensor and shouldn't be reading something other than the true value. The software is interpreting the signal and can have variance (as seen commonly in AEM units).

Click to expand...

when you say adjust the logged values to read lilke the gauge, are you talking about the logged values in dsmlink?

Thank you

Exactly.

sounds good, I'll give that a try tonight.
Thank you for the help

back to square one huh? . Ok, im gonna give a slight update myself. I too checked grounds, soldered and bolted to nice ground(dremeled up so contact is perfect). All good there. No more lmconfig for me, i trust the gauge. Tried logging techedge linear. Closer, but off the other way now, link is reading richer than logged. Btw, i have analog 1 going to gauge and analog 2 going to fronto2 ecu pin, both programmed for 0-5v output.
Next step tomorrow is like sno told me in the other thread: Adjust it using the generic linwideband. im reading rawlc1 volts at roughly 2.5 is 14.4-14.7, its impossible to look at both without getting a video. Im going to program links linwb to match that and follow the stock reading in lmconfig where 0=7.4 and 5=22.4, i think that SHOULD(pray) fix it. Ill post more tomorrow and maybe we can both get outta this mess boooost!!


forget some of the above. I just reviewed several logs logging lc1wbraw voltage and link is showing 14.7 exactly at 2.43 to 2.55 or so. Link is right, gauge appears to be wrong. Ill have to review more and take more data tomorrow but it looks like my gauge is out of whack. Im going to review other logs where i can find them and get comparisons of my lc1raw voltage+lc1wb logged afr and compare it to other peoples.

examples: at 2.5v link reads 14.7:1, 1.25v link reads 11.1:1, 5v link reads 22.4:1 Can someone check a log and see if these match if you get a chance?

ok, i have compared my log to other random lc1 containing logs on this site. 4 others to be exact. Through about 20 minutes of back to back to back comparisons ive discovered 100% sure that my GAUGE is actually the incorrect reading. Its that or everyone elses gauge is off too . Got data raw volts and corresponding lc1wb afrs across a wide spectrum and mine matches perfectly up to all other 4 logs i reviewed. I guess im the first to have a gauge go wacky. The only other possible situation is that the 2 separate analog voltages are different b a small amount. I would have to hang my oscilliscope on both leads and run a test OOOOR, simply connect the analog out going to ecu splice into it, and feed both the gauge and ecu off of it. That would be a simple way to check the gauge. If the gauge is good then the output of the unit is shit. Either way, im glad all my settings dont have to change. Ill start my own thread after more troubleshooting but since i know the logged balue is correct, i know im safe and not running too rich. Now i gotta get the knock out at 20psi by pulling timing , was hoping it was rich knock....

Hopefully we can figure this out. I tried playing around with it tonight and didn't get far. I thought I could change the perameters of lc1wb in link but I can't. To change the settings I'll have to log the WB under techwedg like you mentioned.

Here's some info though, I've been in contact with innovate tech support and gave them a run down on the situation including how I wired everything up, and they mentioned that the brown wire should only be wired to the gauge and the yellow wire going to the ecu. I think if it would be hooked up like this we wouldn't have this problem anymore, however do we have to have the brown wire hooked up to the ecu? Correct me if I'm wrong the brown wire is for data logging? If yes couldn't we input the WB in link in the front o2 spot? Sorry if these questions are noob, just tring to think out loud to see if any of this makes sense. Also does it matter if my rear o2 sensor is still inplace? Mine is I'm just woundering if I was suppose to take it out and plug up the hole.

I'll try and play some more with it this weekend and report back.

boost97gst said:

ok, i have compared my log to other random lc1 containing logs on this site. 4 others to be exact. Through about 20 minutes of back to back to back comparisons ive discovered 100% sure that my GAUGE is actually the incorrect reading. Its that or everyone elses gauge is off too . Got data raw volts and corresponding lc1wb afrs across a wide spectrum and mine matches perfectly up to all other 4 logs i reviewed. I guess im the first to have a gauge go wacky. The only other possible situation is that the 2 separate analog voltages are different b a small amount. I would have to hang my oscilliscope on both leads and run a test OOOOR, simply connect the analog out going to ecu splice into it, and feed both the gauge and ecu off of it. That would be a simple way to check the gauge. If the gauge is good then the output of the unit is shit. Either way, im glad all my settings dont have to change. Ill start my own thread after more troubleshooting but since i know the logged balue is correct, i know im safe and not running too rich. Now i gotta get the knock out at 20psi by pulling timing , was hoping it was rich knock....

Click to expand...

I think I'm going to try and do what the innovate tech guuy mentioned to do and hook up the brown wire directly to the gauge only, I think that way the gauge should show exactly what the sensor is saying. I'm not sure if that's a good thing for my car but if the gauge then matchs the sensor then I know its definately an issue between link and innovate.

yellow and brown are/can be identical outputs. innovative gave 2 analogs so we can use one as a sim narrowband. Since we have v3 thats unneccesary as in can be simmed internally(like ive done).

wait, wait, you have v2.5? Ok, were a bit different then as far as setup goes.

edit: if you have the sensor connected to the rear o2 youve got conflicting voltages coming into the rear o2 ecu input which could damage your main innovative lambda box. Either disconnect the pin for rear o2 sensor(stock wire) or do like i did and just disconnect the harness. You cant have 2 voltages going into the same input.

damn, last post i promise , i just remembered i have a signal generator on the scope. I can feed precise dc signals into the gauge to test it perfectly. No doubts about it then. Using a 8k dollar scope to check a 60 dolar gauge

boost97gst said:

yellow and brown are/can be identical outputs. innovative gave 2 analogs so we can use one as a sim narrowband. Since we have v3 thats unneccesary as in can be simmed internally(like ive done).

wait, wait, you have v2.5? Ok, were a bit different then as far as setup goes.

edit: if you have the sensor connected to the rear o2 youve got conflicting voltages coming into the rear o2 ecu input which could damage your main innovative lambda box. Either disconnect the pin for rear o2 sensor(stock wire) or do like i did and just disconnect the harness. You cant have 2 voltages going into the same input.

damn, last post i promise , i just remembered i have a signal generator on the scope. I can feed precise dc signals into the gauge to test it perfectly. No doubts about it then. Using a 8k dollar scope to check a 60 dolar gauge

Click to expand...

My sensor is in the front location, when I wired the yellow and brown wire I never removed the stock wiring, I just tapped in to the stock wiring harness, soldered and sealed it back up. Is this wrong?

All you do is set the output of the LC-1 to read a certain voltage. Then look at the gauge. You can calculate what the gauge should read. Do this at two points and you can calculate a fudge factor. You can make it so the gauge reads exactly the same as the LC-1 serial output.

You can do the same thing with the other output if it's wired into the ECU. I have mine setup to only have a window of 9 to 16 AFR for the 0-5 V range instead of 7 to 22 AFR range. It's more accurate that way.

knochgoon24 said:

All you do is set the output of the LC-1 to read a certain voltage. Then look at the gauge. You can calculate what the gauge should read. Do this at two points and you can calculate a fudge factor. You can make it so the gauge reads exactly the same as the LC-1 serial output.

You can do the same thing with the other output if it's wired into the ECU. I have mine setup to only have a window of 9 to 16 AFR for the 0-5 V range instead of 7 to 22 AFR range. It's more accurate that way.

Click to expand...

I tried this out of curiousity. No luck. My gauge takes the programming but the 9-16afrs dont read right. for instance if you just turn the key on it should read full lean right? Which would be afr of 16 correct? Mine still reads 21.8 no matter what i change in lmconfig 3.15. And i verified it was saving the data. It was a shot though, thanks. I may have some issue with one of my analog outs. But its only .7 to 1 point too rich on the gauge so i dont really care, its so damned hot out there im not messin with it!! Did some pulls and a few maf cals now that i know my link values are dead on. Pullin like a beast.

boost97gst said:

I tried this out of curiousity. No luck. My gauge takes the programming but the 9-16afrs dont read right. for instance if you just turn the key on it should read full lean right? Which would be afr of 16 correct? Mine still reads 21.8 no matter what i change in lmconfig 3.15. And i verified it was saving the data. It was a shot though, thanks. I may have some issue with one of my analog outs. But its only .7 to 1 point too rich on the gauge so i dont really care, its so damned hot out there im not messin with it!! Did some pulls and a few maf cals now that i know my link values are dead on. Pullin like a beast.

Click to expand...

The gauge expects certain settings. The gauge is programmed with a voltage to afr equation that will read 7-23 afr. You need to output this full range to the gauge or it won't read correctly. I mentioned the 9-16 afr trick with regards to wiring the LC-1 into an ECU, where you are in control of the equations on both ends.

Inaccuracies in gauge measurements arise when the is a ground offset. For example, the LC-1 outputs say 2.37V with reference to the ground it's attached to, but the gauge only sees it as 2.27V with reference to its ground because of a 0.10V ground offset. To correct this, you would have to have the LC-1 output 0.10V more that the "normal" amount so the gauge reads correct, or fix the ground offset.

Also remember that there is a delay in the tailpipe reading compared to the reading from a sensor in the downpipe or o2 housing. It's not a large delay when exhaust flow is high, but it is noticible at idle.

I havent tested the ecu ground, that could be diff than the gauge..... its a slim chance but still possible. Im not terribly worried TBH, i know with a glance to add about 1 point to what im reading. I will eventually hang a scope on both outputs and if they are equal then ill call innovative and ask for a replacement, otherwise im not in a hurry anymore.

The possibility of a ground offset is actually described in the LC-1 manual. That's why mentioned it as the probable cause to you. I had almost an identical problem to what you're having.

knochgoon24 said:

The possibility of a ground offset is actually described in the LC-1 manual. That's why mentioned it as the probable cause to you. I had almost an identical problem to what you're having.

Click to expand...

I appreciate the help. I will get it fixed and report back next weekend with my findings. ECU ground is suspect, like you said before. Now, i just have to change my shitty oreillys sachs clutch out for a southbend next weekend too....... I shouldnt have cheaped out. Well, thats a whole nother can o worms. Live and learn i suppose.