Also note that anything above 17* after peak torque I would get knock on my tune. It's all about giving the engine what it wants, when it wants it. Asking others to tell you what timing to run is pointless. Each engine will be different. I do believe the current 16g e85 record holder for e85 runs 0* at peak torque.

EGT's are also far from optimal to try to tune timing. Depending on the placement of the thermocouple, length of the harness and 20 other variables each reading will be different on each engine. Also each engine will have a different EGT temp where HG or other failure occurs. Unless you log this information and run the engine to failure you won't know that number!

Spark plugs are the ONLY way to tune timing, and that is somewhat of an art form, esp with a alcohol based fuel.

IMO, start around 10* peak torque timing and ramp up to 15* or so. Then dial in your max boost and AFR first. Then slowly bump timing while watching your plugs and logging your gains.

This is what my plugs looked like with peak timing at 18* ramping up to 22* by redline. e316g spiking to 36ish settling to 25-26 by redline.

Thanks for the spark plug picture! Mine are still sooty, so I have a lot more to go. It is just the damn popping when I let off the throttle. Kinda scary - the last logs I posted had the popping upon throttle closure, maybe you can see something in the *.csv file. NOTE that the popping doesn't occur using 93 octane. So it has to be a burn issue with the e85 or too lean or too rich. I'll check again. I assume too rich since my plugs are sooty. Although I will also check the gap too - maybe that is the issue, but I would think the issue would exacerbate at the higher rpm ranges, but the higher rpm ranges feel pretty good on the butt dyno.

Not to be silly, but has anyone tried nitrous with E85? I wouldn't think there would be a chemistry conflict with the two, but just curious.

eclipsegst1990 said:

Thanks for the spark plug picture! Mine are still sooty, so I have a lot more to go. It is just the damn popping when I let off the throttle. Kinda scary - the last logs I posted had the popping upon throttle closure, maybe you can see something in the *.csv file. NOTE that the popping doesn't occur using 93 octane. So it has to be a burn issue with the e85 or too lean or too rich. I'll check again. I assume too rich since my plugs are sooty. Although I will also check the gap too - maybe that is the issue, but I would think the issue would exacerbate at the higher rpm ranges, but the higher rpm ranges feel pretty good on the butt dyno.

Not to be silly, but has anyone tried nitrous with E85? I wouldn't think there would be a chemistry conflict with the two, but just curious.

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There should be little to no "soot" on an e85 plug. Your doing something horribly wrong if you are having this issue. If your using a WB02 and staying above 10:1 (gas scale) I don't see how you could have "soot" on the plugs? Have you changed them since e85? I'd install new plugs right away. Use nickel plated plugs like NGK and read up (google search) on reading the ground strap (heat range) of the plug. Once you get the correct plug then you look for detonation (speckles all over the plug in the pic) You want a clean looking plug with NO speckling.

You are concerned with popping while in decal? Oye man your kill'n me! That has nothing to do with e85/detonation/plugs/ or tuning. Sounds to me like this is all leading back to your TPS and Idle switch. Does your wideband go dead lean on deceleration? If you leave the car in 2nd gear and run the rpms up to 4k and let off the gas in gear (aka decel) your TPS and closed throttle switch should tell the ECU shut off the injectors. This will resulte in the above dead lean condition on the WB02 and should eliminate "popping" on decal.

E85 as well as any higher octane (slower burning) fuel works great with nitrous.


good luck.

eclipsegst1990 said:

Not to be silly, but has anyone tried nitrous with E85? I wouldn't think there would be a chemistry conflict with the two, but just curious.

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I've been using nitrous with E85 for a couple months now, works great

+1 on what ForceFed suggested. The popping is most likely coming from your closed throttle switch or tps.

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by "soot"?

Also when you guys say run for example "run 0* at peak tq" that means actually zero degrees, or no advance over stock?

Chicken Patty said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by "soot"?

Also when you guys say run for example "run 0* at peak tq" that means actually zero degrees, or no advance over stock?

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"Soot" lots of carbon build up from running too rich WAY TOO RICH. I had this problem running 93 when my knock sensor was screwed in too tight - not by me. 17 to 20ft lbs I believe is the standard. I would add fuel to compensate for knock that really didn't exist "even with the phantom knock code" I was 10:1 and still had knock which was baffling me for the longest time until I realized that the sensor was too tight - but in good condition. My plugs were black because of it!

NO, I never changed my plugs since E85 - just started using it as of last week. I will get on that right away and gap them a little lower. BPR7ES sound good? - although a hotter 6 might me better.

Yea, sorry for killing you guys, I just have a lot of work to do and don't want to screw up.

eclipsegst1990 said:

"Soot" lots of carbon build up from running too rich WAY TOO RICH. I had this problem running 93 when my knock sensor was screwed in too tight - not by me. 17 to 20ft lbs I believe is the standard. I would add fuel to compensate for knock that really didn't exist "even with the phantom knock code" I was 10:1 and still had knock which was baffling me for the longest time until I realized that the sensor was too tight - but in good condition. My plugs were black because of it!

NO, I never changed my plugs since E85 - just started using it as of last week. I will get on that right away and gap them a little lower. BPR7ES sound good? - although a hotter 6 might me better.

Yea, sorry for killing you guys, I just have a lot of work to do and don't want to screw up.

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I believe the non projected tip of the BR7ES's is the better plug, that's what gofer runs I believe and that's what me and some other peeps around here run. I have mine gapped at like 0.16-17". Anything higher than that and I get spark blowout.

You ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS run a colder plug on E85 then what you were with 91-93 octane or else you'll get pre-ignition. Stock DSM's typically run a BRP6ES plugs gapped to .026", modified on pump I recommend NGK BRP7ES plugs gapped to .028", and on E85 I recommend NGK BR8ES (No "P" in the part number) plugs gapped to .025".

E85 is highly resistant to knock but susceptible to whats called fuel pre-ignition, this is why you see tuners running E85 and melting pistons, valves, and spark plugs without ever seeing 1* of knock when it happens.

Quoted from NGK:

When using an ethanol blend fuel with high ethanol content in high performance applications, a colder heat range may be necessary. The spark timing can be advanced further because ethanol blend fuel has a higher resistance to knock (higher octane). Due to the decreased knock, there will be less audible "warning" from knock before the spark plug overheats and pre-ignites.

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gofer said:

You ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS run a colder plug on E85 then what you were with 91-93 octane or else you'll get pre-ignition. Stock DSM's typically run a BRP6ES plugs gapped to .026", modified on pump I recommend NGK BRP7ES plugs gapped to .028", and on E85 I recommend NGK BR8ES (No "P" in the part number) plugs gapped to .025".

E85 is highly resistant to knock but susceptible to whats called fuel pre-ignition, this is why you see tuners running E85 and melting pistons, valves, and spark plugs without ever seeing 1* of knock when it happens.

Quoted from NGK:

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I'll second that! The only reason to run a warmer plug is if you are fouling your current plug. Hot plugs are for petrol cars. I'm also partial to not running a projected plug in turbo cars. (many have no problems doing so)

I run a br9es and I have NO plug fouling. There is no reason to run a hot plug on a turbo/e85 car. I also ran my plugs right out of the box. Gapped at .030 (maybe .028 didn't check). This is on top of water/meth injection (washer fluid). Even with the added water in the combustion mixture I have no spark "blow out" at 35+ psi. Factory IGN parts, cheapo autozone wires.

Well I should clear up that in my post I mean to say that for E85 it's better to run the BR7ES, than the BPR7ES. I have to try the 8's, definitely getting some when I get paid along with the other stuff.

I actually run a br8es. When running bpr7es i noticed some speckling of the plugs, the non projected 8's fixed the issue.

donniekak said:

I actually run a br8es. When running bpr7es i noticed some speckling of the plugs, the non projected 8's fixed the issue.

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I had the BPR7's in once for a few days on E85 when I was doing my first tank, just regular driving and the car felt different. Definitely not using BP's for E85

I have tuned roughly 30 or so cars with ethanol based fuels on the dyno over the last couple years. Most of these cars were in the 450-800 hp range.

I have to put a disclaminer out that you should not assume that what has worked for me will work for you...

My observations:

- The quality of E85 can really make a big difference on where the tune ends up.
- I like to run "good" E85 in the 11.6-12.0 AFR (gas scale) I really have not seen any gains going much leaner than that.
- Running ethanol based fuels (E85 and E98) too rich (~ 11.2 and richer) can deffinatly cause the knock sensors to pick up noise, but not always. When this condition occurs, inspection of the spark plugs typically does not show any signs of detonation.


- Ignition timing is another ball game. I think a common misconception about ethanol is that it burns slower, thus needing more timing. On the contrary, ethanol actually burns quite a bit faster than gasoline, but it takes longer to light after the initial spark. It takes longer to get going, but once it does, it burns faster than gasoline. This is the reason that you typically need more ignition timing with ethanol based fuels.

- MBT for the 4G63 is around ~17º advance with gasoline. If the car is knock limited, you wont be able to get there. This can vary by a couple of degrees either way depending on a multitude of things (stroke, rpm, tumble, etc). With E85 and E98, I suspect that MBT increases a few degrees due to its ignition and burn rate characteristics.

Another thing that I have noticed is that the lower boost/smaller turbo cars are not typically knock limited, therefore you can pump as much timing into them as you want to and not knock, however your not going to see any gains after a certain point.

If you have true E85 your not going to make all that much more power with E98, but the consistancy of E98 is nice to have for the higher hp cars.

I typically run big boost (40+ psi) cars with E98 around 11.8-12.2:1 AFR (gas scale). Ignition timing can be upto 12-15º at peak torque and be upto 18-20º out the back door in these situations.

Thanks for all the info, I'm one to not encourage copying settings from others, but it's nice to gather settings/info so that you get familiarized with what others have had work for them.

Your write up is good, I've done basic tunes on E85, like low boost stock timing maps so that if someone needs to get on it they can. Thats never gave me issues, however soon I will be doing an actual E85 tune on my car to get some good power out of it and the more info I can gather, the better. This thread definitely has good info in it, it'll be great if different peeps can keep it coming with the info.

I'll make sure to post any results/feedback if I do any tuning in the near future. (I should be)

Regarding E85 what are your opinions on Iridium plugs? Smaller electrode better electric potential - at least in theory. Maybe less blowouts with a slightly wider gap for better ignition.

Honesty, I've used BPR7ES and BR7ES for years and gonna switch to BR8ES. However, there are Iridium options too. I'm not sure if they have a "protuding" or "non protruding" option as the latter. I prefer old faithful, but any takers on this?

awddsm95 said:

I have tuned roughly 30 or so cars with ethanol based fuels on the dyno over the last couple years. Most of these cars were in the 450-800 hp range.

I have to put a disclaminer out that you should not assume that what has worked for me will work for you...

My observations:


- MBT for the 4G63 is around ~17º advance with gasoline. If the car is knock limited, you wont be able to get there. This can vary by a couple of degrees either way depending on a multitude of things (stroke, rpm, tumble, etc). With E85 and E98, I suspect that MBT increases a few degrees due to its ignition and burn rate characteristics.

.

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i see you disclaimer. but i realy realy think you should rephrase this.... do put a definite or even approximate number then say it varies... kinda double negative.a couple could be 2*-10*-20*... but nice explanation other wise .

IMO the stock 1g timing map on e85 is almost perfect, very aggressive down low and up top. Maybe needs a little pulled out up top. But like everyones saying, every car is different. You have too tune too what you car likes. I always use the MBT method which works great. Once you get to a point where 1* extra timing advance doesnt give more than 5-10whp output then your good.

awddsm95 said:

Ignition timing can be upto 12-15º at peak torque and be upto 18-20º out the back door in these situations.

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I tried to run 10* at peak torque, and blew flames from in between my block and head. I now run about 4* at peak torque, and ramp up to 18*. I also don't use a knock sensor signal to tune e85. I read plugs, and use 70-90 times for tuning. But i run 9:1 pistons and live in the 115* desert. As always every car is different.

donniekak said:

I tried to run 10* at peak torque, and blew flames from in between my block and head. I now run about 4* at peak torque, and ramp up to 18*. I also don't use a knock sensor signal to tune e85. I read plugs, and use 70-90 times for tuning. But i run 9:1 pistons and live in the 115* desert. As always every car is different.

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That's weird, right now I run about 11-12* (stock) at peak torque. I might look into playing around wtih timing in that area though to see what gives me better spool or what not.



Question for you guys, if you do end up running 4* of ignition timing let's say peak torque at like 4.5-5k, how quickly do you ramp up your timing from there on up, do you go from 4* to like 12* or....? For example, I see peak torque on the DSM Link data log at like 5250, so if I run like 4* then, how quickly do I ramp it up? Not sure if you can have a big jump in timing or if it has to be smooth from there on up. Thing is theres only so much cells left to edit, if you don't give it a good jump you'll never get up there in timing.

Chicken Patty said:

That's weird, right now I run about 11-12* (stock) at peak torque. I might look into playing around wtih timing in that area though to see what gives me better spool or what not.



Question for you guys, if you do end up running 4* of ignition timing let's say peak torque at like 4.5-5k, how quickly do you ramp up your timing from there on up, do you go from 4* to like 12* or....? For example, I see peak torque on the DSM Link data log at like 5250, so if I run like 4* then, how quickly do I ramp it up? Not sure if you can have a big jump in timing or if it has to be smooth from there on up. Thing is theres only so much cells left to edit, if you don't give it a good jump you'll never get up there in timing.

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I also have 9:1 pistons, cams, and run over 30 psi at peak torque. On stock pistons, and cams, i ran close to a stock 1g timing map at around 28 psi.

donniekak said:

I also have 9:1 pistons, cams, and run over 30 psi at peak torque. On stock pistons, and cams, i ran close to a stock 1g timing map at around 28 psi.

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True! Just never heard of that happening, sounds crazy .

So what is the standard spark plug someone should use on E85? It's seems the hotter the plug the better so I'm guessing BR7ES gapped are the best? I'm going to be running 950 fic's with no more the 18-20psi on a 14b.

bertrenolds said:

So what is the standard spark plug someone should use on E85? It's seems the hotter the plug the better so I'm guessing BR7ES gapped are the best? I'm going to be running 950 fic's with no more the 18-20psi on a 14b.

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Read the above posts... no where does is say that hotter is better. The opposite is true in fact. The only reason for a hot plug is to prevent fouling. E85 doesn't foul plugs. (not that I've seen anyway) I run a 9 heat range. The plugs look great. I'd bet I could run a 10 or an 11 and not notice a difference in performance. Do a google search and learn how to read the ground strap to find the proper heat range.

Even better, here's the answer in the page before this one:

Colder is the way to go.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152643848-post108.html

forcefed86 said:

Read the above posts... no where does is say that hotter is better.

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You're right regarding the above posts, but this thread is over a year old and has some "dated" information.

Post #6 on the first page:

95blackGsTurbo said:

You will need to run as hot of a plug as your can for E85

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