High Boost - Pump Gas Ideas?

mnetwork · Jun 19, 2011

Lately I have seen more and more dynos of cars (usually Evos) running 29+ psi on pump gas and making very high numbers. I see a lot of them coming from DynoFlash and a few other places. Of course, you cannot believe EVERYTHING you see, but people are doing it. Has anyone done this or have any insight to how this is accomplished?

scott90gsx420 · Jun 19, 2011

$$$$$$lots and lots of$$$$$..
Simple get a big turbo that can flow really well. Get duel fuel pumps and AFPR and MONSTER injectors. Big fuel lines. HUGE FMIC and probably meth injection. Forged internals and a built head. Dsmlink for tuning and a built tranny/transfer case to help keep the power on the ground.. There is a LOT more but thats a basic start LOL

.

donniekak · Jun 19, 2011

mnetwork said:
Lately I have seen more and more dynos of cars (usually Evos) running 29+ psi on pump gas and making very high numbers. I see a lot of them coming from DynoFlash and a few other places. Of course, you cannot believe EVERYTHING you see, but people are doing it. Has anyone done this or have any insight to how this is accomplished?

Large turbine wheel/housing, good intercooler, low timing.

MY1GDSM · Jun 19, 2011

Depends on what your definition of pump gas is

scott90gsx420 · Jun 19, 2011

^^ya forgot about that doing that on pump will be difficult without dumping a shit ton of fuel.. If your going to be making monster power then go with race fuel or better yet e-85 as youll already need huge injectors get some 2000+ injectors or something like that that can keep up with the airflow while running e-85.. And evo's make good power but if you look youll see a ton more 7-800+ WHP dsm's then evos

GSXSixteenG · Jun 19, 2011

A lot of high hp pump gas cars are using meth injection as well.

BigBeans · Jun 19, 2011

A good FMIC, compression on the low side, AFRs in the 10.8-11.2 range, and low timing. A big, efficient turbo helps when you start talking serious boost (36+) on pump.

LiquidX · Jun 19, 2011

scott90gsx420 said:
$$$$$$lots and lots of$$$$$..
Simple get a big turbo that can flow really well. Get duel fuel pumps and AFPR and MONSTER injectors. Big fuel lines. HUGE FMIC and probably meth injection. Forged internals and a built head. Dsmlink for tuning and a built tranny/transfer case to help keep the power on the ground.. There is a LOT more but thats a basic start .

Dual pumps are not needed depending on the pump selection. Your injectors depend on the level you are looking for with the flow rating at X (line pressure) + Y (air flow).

A "huge" FMIC can possible be too large, what you mean to say is an efficient core. Most likely water/meth injection :thumb:

OP, if you want to see how to do it, check the dyno board and see what others are running in the pump gas tunes. Note if the pump gas is using methanol or not.

D's GS-T · Jun 19, 2011

Alot of those evos on dynoflash use the SMC or Aquamist Injection kits.

Mr Peepers · Jun 19, 2011

donniekak said:
Large turbine wheel/housing, good intercooler, low timing.

BigBeans said:
A good FMIC, compression on the low side, AFRs in the 10.8-11.2 range, and low timing. A big, efficient turbo helps when you start talking serious boost (36+) on pump.

Bingo.

Meth injection should be mentioned again too, but I think the question was based more around straight pump.

The intercooler is a huge factor IMO after seeing what FonZ454 did before he switched to e85 on his 16g. Perhaps compression too, but I tend to think high compression and low timing is a better compromise than low compression and high timing.

mnetwork · Jun 19, 2011

scott90gsx420 said:
^^ya forgot about that doing that on pump will be difficult without dumping a shit ton of fuel.. If your going to be making monster power then go with race fuel or better yet e-85 as youll already need huge injectors get some 2000+ injectors or something like that that can keep up with the airflow while running e-85.. And evo's make good power but if you look youll see a ton more 7-800+ WHP dsm's then evos

I currently run E85 and love it, but it is annoying for me to get and I've been wanting to drive my DSM on trips lately.

scott90gsx420 said:
$$$$$$lots and lots of$$$$$..
Simple get a big turbo that can flow really well. Get duel fuel pumps and AFPR and MONSTER injectors. Big fuel lines. HUGE FMIC and probably meth injection. Forged internals and a built head. Dsmlink for tuning and a built tranny/transfer case to help keep the power on the ground.. There is a LOT more but thats a basic start .

Please understand the question before replying. Big fuel lines? Monster injectors? None of what you said has anything to do with specifically making power on PUMP GAS.

GSXSixteenG said:
A lot of high hp pump gas cars are using meth injection as well.

That is true, but there are ones that don't and those would be the ones that I am focusing on.

donniekak said:
Large turbine wheel/housing, good intercooler, low timing.

Two questions. One, exactly how does the turbine wheel/housing relate to pump gas power? Or are you just saying those help with power in general?

And how much timing are people pulling to run high boost? Is there a point at which you can pull too much timing so that the boost gained would not be worth it?

MY1GDSM · Jun 20, 2011

mnetwork said:
And how much timing are people pulling to run high boost? Is there a point at which you can pull too much timing so that the boost gained would not be worth it?

YES

Some of the cars your probably thinking of are golden gooses... You know by chance Just the right mix of parts...

How hard is e85 to get a hold of in your area?

turboglenn · Jun 20, 2011

speaking of "91'ish based pump gas" i'm surprised so many people thing you jst need to dump tons and tons of fuel.. I found that anything richer than 11:1 really doesn't pay off and just adds rich knbock (both on pump and e85) I was tuning a subaru WRX the other day (using CoBB access port) and just like many of the DSM's I've done.. the "basemap" setting the cuystomer got with the setup wre set to be at 10.4:1 and the "high knock" was like 9.6:1.. it wqws detting hard on both these maps, orginlaly plling back to 9* then even farther to 7.5* by redline.. and since thge mapping was so OBD-II based , I tell ya what i did to get rid of almost 99% of the knock at 18psi.. I LEANED IT OUT.. knock count (total *'s pulled) went from 10+ degrees (because when it would knock and go to the rich map it knocked even more) I set the regular map to 12:1, then iu set the high knock map to 11:1 so it would fluctuate beteween there and by logging i could see what i t wanted.. the car ended up running 17-19* timing on 18psi on 91 octane by leanming it out and averaging about 11.6 - 11.8:1 AFR.. then as boost was added// pulled timing accordingly keeping the AFR's consistant with what the block wanted.. ended up at 24psi on pump (IIRC VH34 turbo) running 12* timing at redline and making a LOT ofd heat even.. adn going richer only brougt on more knock

the car is still running my wideband ( i need it back asap DUDE!!!!!!!! LOL

) and starts at 9* pulls up to 12* by redline averaging about 1- 2* timing pulled by the second or third pull of heatsoaking.. seen it with countless DSM's these days

the bigger the turbo the less heat and thsi means trapped heat from a turbine section too, so with really large turbos, i've seen others pushing like 35+ psi, but only have 6* timing wide open at redline and like 1-3* during spool, which any bok on engine performance will tell you that once you're doing this,mit may sound cool but you're only cooking the components in the hot side of the turbo and exit side of the head, because peak cylinder pressure is accuring so late that more of it's being wasted than trasnfered into usable force for the crank to drive the trans.. yea yea.. shout me dyno queen numbers all day.. but put an EVO with a 6* peak timing map and a turbno that spools up around 6500 RPM agains't an SRT4 or something similar with a small turbo, ruining decent timing all arounf and a lot less boost and one's gonna suck but the EVO driver just isn't going to admit defeat, instead he'll wait till the SRT guy has stopped thinking the EVO broke and then fly by at 8500 RPM just getting spooled in 2nd gear, but bragging that his peak 600hp that's only 500 RPM wide is just the hot meal ticket.. there's a reason tehre's still 1g AWD talons with 16g's on pump eating up the dyno queen EVO's and thats' usalble power range...

NOW.. add meth/water injection to the equation and you can start to hit a happy medium, or make your dyno queeen that much more fairy like so you can put your jersey shore hair gell on as you get out at the EVO meet with this weeks dyno slip of umpteen billion horsepower whle you secretly only have 15 miles on the car because it sucks to drive on the street

ok i was on a tangent.. read some engine biooks thoughm, there's more there than you will find half us will remmebre to post when we see these threads (and a lot of explaing of the WHY this CAN be done but really isn't any better for much more than bragging rights)

I'io not trying to ruin your picns, but i'm saying it would be better to run a medium frame blower that moveds teh amount of flow at the pressure ratio needed to keep youre timing from dropping under 15* toatl advance by redline unlss you just like cooked parts and cool dyno sheets.. being FAST and runnign HIGH HP are although related, often very different results

ALso.. that was backwards above.. it's better to have HIGHER TIMING and LOWER compression ratio.. it's all about peak cylinde rpressure and when it occurs in order oto transfer the energy from the burning gas to the crank at the best time for maximum wokr effort obtained from it.. books books books books books... those things you find holding down papers, propping open doors these day.. they have more knowledge in them in most people these days can remember in the age of kindles, google on cell phones and forums where eveyrone who replies is a super race tuning god that is going to make sure what you buy is the most efficient cost effective olution LOL

the most general rule of thumb in deisgnign an overall system from the groundf up to get PCP (that peak thing i mentioned earlier) to happen at the propper time which is usually around 15* or so ATDC on the power stroke..., and you have to light the gas early for it to ccur there.. and if you find you're running under 19-20* timing at redline under peak boost, you're doing it a less efficient way than what's available to you..these are not my words butthos of some of the breatest in the busoiness (corky bell for one) and the first step is to either lower boost or compression ratio, but since power is mainly based on the ovlume of air available , comporession ratio should be the first to be dropped, evne if you just add some cc's to the head.. but hell what do i know, my moped is the bomb son!

mnetwork · Jun 20, 2011

MY1GDSM said:
YES

Some of the cars your probably thinking of are golden gooses... You know by chance Just the right mix of parts...

How hard is e85 to get a hold of in your area?

There are main two places by me. One is south of me where I will swing by with three gas cans on the way home from work sometimes. The other is north of me and the only time I'm pretty much up there is if I happen to be in the area for a meet or for this specific mall. Taking the car on a nice trip means filling it up with the cans and using a lot of the tank. I've been thinking of running it on pump again for a little while, but I'm not sure. I haven't run pump in the car since November.

turboglenn said:
speaking of "91'ish based pump gas" i'm surprised so many people thing you jst need to dump tons and tons of fuel.. I found that anything richer than 11:1 really doesn't pay off and just adds rich knbock (both on pump and e85) I was tuning a subaru WRX the other day (using CoBB access port) and just like many of the DSM's I've done.. the "basemap" setting the cuystomer got with the setup wre set to be at 10.4:1 and the "high knock" was like 9.6:1.. it wqws detting hard on both these maps, orginlaly plling back to 9* then even farther to 7.5* by redline.. and since thge mapping was so OBD-II based , I tell ya what i did to get rid of almost 99% of the knock at 18psi.. I LEANED IT OUT.. knock count (total *'s pulled) went from 10+ degrees (because when it would knock and go to the rich map it knocked even more) I set the regular map to 12:1, then iu set the high knock map to 11:1 so it would fluctuate beteween there and by logging i could see what i t wanted.. the car ended up running 17-19* timing on 18psi on 91 octane by leanming it out and averaging about 11.6 - 11.8:1 AFR.. then as boost was added// pulled timing accordingly keeping the AFR's consistant with what the block wanted.. ended up at 24psi on pump (IIRC VH34 turbo) running 12* timing at redline and making a LOT ofd heat even.. adn going richer only brougt on more knock

the car is still running my wideband ( i need it back asap DUDE!!!!!!!! ) and starts at 9* pulls up to 12* by redline averaging about 1- 2* timing pulled by the second or third pull of heatsoaking.. seen it with countless DSM's these days

the bigger the turbo the less heat and thsi means trapped heat from a turbine section too, so with really large turbos, i've seen others pushing like 35+ psi, but only have 6* timing wide open at redline and like 1-3* during spool, which any bok on engine performance will tell you that once you're doing this,mit may sound cool but you're only cooking the components in the hot side of the turbo and exit side of the head, because peak cylinder pressure is accuring so late that more of it's being wasted than trasnfered into usable force for the crank to drive the trans.. yea yea.. shout me dyno queen numbers all day.. but put an EVO with a 6* peak timing map and a turbno that spools up around 6500 RPM agains't an SRT4 or something similar with a small turbo, ruining decent timing all arounf and a lot less boost and one's gonna suck but the EVO driver just isn't going to admit defeat, instead he'll wait till the SRT guy has stopped thinking the EVO broke and then fly by at 8500 RPM just getting spooled in 2nd gear, but bragging that his peak 600hp that's only 500 RPM wide is just the hot meal ticket.. there's a reason tehre's still 1g AWD talons with 16g's on pump eating up the dyno queen EVO's and thats' usalble power range...

NOW.. add meth/water injection to the equation and you can start to hit a happy medium, or make your dyno queeen that much more fairy like so you can put your jersey shore hair gell on as you get out at the EVO meet with this weeks dyno slip of umpteen billion horsepower whle you secretly only have 15 miles on the car because it sucks to drive on the street

ok i was on a tangent.. read some engine biooks thoughm, there's more there than you will find half us will remmebre to post when we see these threads (and a lot of explaing of the WHY this CAN be done but really isn't any better for much more than bragging rights)

I'io not trying to ruin your picns, but i'm saying it would be better to run a medium frame blower that moveds teh amount of flow at the pressure ratio needed to keep youre timing from dropping under 15* toatl advance by redline unlss you just like cooked parts and cool dyno sheets.. being FAST and runnign HIGH HP are although related, often very different results

ALso.. that was backwards above.. it's better to have HIGHER TIMING and LOWER compression ratio.. it's all about peak cylinde rpressure and when it occurs in order oto transfer the energy from the burning gas to the crank at the best time for maximum wokr effort obtained from it.. books books books books books... those things you find holding down papers, propping open doors these day.. they have more knowledge in them in most people these days can remember in the age of kindles, google on cell phones and forums where eveyrone who replies is a super race tuning god that is going to make sure what you buy is the most efficient cost effective olution

the most general rule of thumb in deisgnign an overall system from the groundf up to get PCP (that peak thing i mentioned earlier) to happen at the propper time which is usually around 15* or so ATDC on the power stroke..., and you have to light the gas early for it to ccur there.. and if you find you're running under 19-20* timing at redline under peak boost, you're doing it a less efficient way than what's available to you..these are not my words butthos of some of the breatest in the busoiness (corky bell for one) and the first step is to either lower boost or compression ratio, but since power is mainly based on the ovlume of air available , comporession ratio should be the first to be dropped, evne if you just add some cc's to the head.. but hell what do i know, my moped is the bomb son!

So going below 15* at redline is not good? This is mainly because of the heat you are generating?

dacowgod · Jun 20, 2011

The main reason for Knock is HEAT... get rid of HEAT get rid of Knock...

3 necessary things for big power on pump gas.. I.E. 93 Octane no Meth.

1. GOOD intercooler
2. As little restrictions as possible ...Intake and Exhaust
3. LOW Coolant Temps people ALWAYS over look this... If you want big power get the car running around 160 degrees and it will surprise you how much more power you can make..

All of this will drop heat ..

Also TOO rich will cause heat and TOO little timing will as well...so theres some trial and error between the 2 to help keep the knock down..

Mr Peepers · Jun 20, 2011

turboglenn said:
ALso.. that was backwards above.. it's better to have HIGHER TIMING and LOWER compression ratio.. it's all about peak cylinde rpressure and when it occurs in order oto transfer the energy from the burning gas to the crank at the best time for maximum wokr effort obtained from it.. books books books books books... those things you find holding down papers, propping open doors these day.. they have more knowledge in them in most people these days can remember in the age of kindles, google on cell phones and forums where eveyrone who replies is a super race tuning god that is going to make sure what you buy is the most efficient cost effective olution

the most general rule of thumb in deisgnign an overall system from the groundf up to get PCP (that peak thing i mentioned earlier) to happen at the propper time which is usually around 15* or so ATDC on the power stroke..., and you have to light the gas early for it to ccur there.. and if you find you're running under 19-20* timing at redline under peak boost, you're doing it a less efficient way than what's available to you..these are not my words butthos of some of the breatest in the busoiness (corky bell for one) and the first step is to either lower boost or compression ratio, but since power is mainly based on the ovlume of air available , comporession ratio should be the first to be dropped, evne if you just add some cc's to the head.. but hell what do i know, my moped is the bomb son!

I'm referring to compression that comes with a proper quench height and squish band. Things that make it so not as much timing is necessary/more efficient burn rate from more turbulence as the piston reaches TDC. Yes, the goal is to have cylinder pressure peak around 15* ADTC but an engine that doesn't require as much timing advance to see peak cylinder pressure at 15ATDC should see more overall work done with all else being equal.

It's really just a balancing act and certain people would rather have a different mix. Compression ratio is relative as well. I certainly wouldn't want to go any lower than my current stock 7.8:1

forcefed86 · Jul 8, 2011

Depends on your goals. There is technically no limit (except the stress limits of your components) to the Hp that can be made with pump fuel. You can simply keep lowering the compression ratio and adding more boost. Each little hit you take in off boost power comes with a huge gain in on boost power.

Here are some rough calculations for a typical small block turbocharged intercooled street engine at various static compression ratios.

10:1 432Hp N/A 638Hp@7psi
9:1 414Hp N/A 780Hp@13psi
8:1 396Hp N/A 962Hp@21psi
7:1 378Hp N/A 1201Hp@32psi

So the question is with so many trying to extract the most power from pump fuel why do we never see below 8:1?

Would you rather have quick transient response or "eye sucking" HP?

A Merlin aircraft engine had a 6 to 1 compression ratio and made over 2030 hp @ 18 psi in a 130/131 version of the engine.

phunny · Jul 8, 2011

We did my pump and e85 tunes yesterday. Mods are in my profile but we had 35psi on 93 at 11.8 - 12.0 a/f with a decent amount of timing(I'll have to check logs) with virtually no knock. We wanted to give her more boost but I need a stiffer WG spring.

After that we filled up with e85 and still went with a 12.0a/f but moved timing up to 20 degrees by redline.

dacowgod · Jul 8, 2011

phunny said:
We did my pump and e85 tunes yesterday. Mods are in my profile but we had 35psi on 93 at 11.8 - 12.0 a/f with a decent amount of timing(I'll have to check logs) with virtually no knock. We wanted to give her more boost but I need a stiffer WG spring.

After that we filled up with e85 and still went with a 12.0a/f but moved timing up to 20 degrees by redline.

Your pump gas timing was 12-14* peak depending on if that 1.4 degrees of knock decided to show up in that pull or not...

phunny · Jul 8, 2011

dacowgod said:
Your pump gas timing was 12-14* peak depending on if that 1.4 degrees of knock decided to show up in that pull or not...

Thanks

. I was thinking it was around 14* but just wasn't sure.

I think what I'm going to do until my intake is completed is just get some more 4'' exhaust and run the filter down by the tire. That should help a lot with those intake temps. Hopefully we don't get rained out...

mnetwork · Jul 10, 2011

phunny said:
We did my pump and e85 tunes yesterday. Mods are in my profile but we had 35psi on 93 at 11.8 - 12.0 a/f with a decent amount of timing(I'll have to check logs) with virtually no knock. We wanted to give her more boost but I need a stiffer WG spring.

After that we filled up with e85 and still went with a 12.0a/f but moved timing up to 20 degrees by redline.

35 is very high for pump gas. Suprised.

1fastlaser · Jul 10, 2011

Ive ran upwards of 36psi on straight 93 pump gas no meth or anything on a ebay ss autochrome intercooler Ive have for 8 years LOL

. This is also on a 2.4 gt4294 made 621 on 30psi 93 octane. Went 10.9@134 on 25psi on my first pass to the track drove it there on bald all seasons and got the boot for no safety equipment LOL

. Timing around 13-15 degrees up top.I was running 27ish on a 60-1 p trim turbine and a bolt on bullseye housing. went 11.7@124 on pump with that with a crappy non shifting trans.

Recently built a 2.0 galant vr4...fp3065 and manifold hks 272s, dsmlink v2. 30-31psi on 93 octane no meth or anything...13-15 degrees up top.

Every motor is going to be different. 2.4s have less piston dwell time so you can get away with a little more. But motors will all react different. Depends on the compression, combustion chamber setup, cams, exhaust manifold, and turbine housing. I just tune to where I feel is the limit and back it off and Im happy...my car I just pretty much go balls to the wall LOL

.

Remember its not the boost pressure that hurts stuff its cylinder pressure. More timing/compression= more cylinder pressure. Gotta make power with boost on pump gas, not timing.

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High Boost - Pump Gas Ideas?

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