tkelly27 said:

Ebay intercooler testing from the Pros at Buschur Racing....the facts, the truth - evolutionm.net

I think I have the ebay ams clone intercooler. I'm not making 600whp though. Seems like the ebay IC's are mostly set up to meet the flow claims that they put on the ads. "1000cfm at 0.Xpsi" Their ability to reject heat from the charge seems to suffer from this. A little bit of meth and a big fan might help that $150 IC keep up with the BR core, but I'm sure nobody that spent $1000 on a BR setup is going to do that test.

Dave seems to think at that hp level it might perform similarly to a stock evo front mount, which I feel is way better than a stock SMIC. May or may not be better than an upgraded SMIC. I'll be watching my IATs and using my temp gun as I push things. Even small differences in the way an IC is installed can change the way it performs.

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Actually, the ebay clone of the ams intercooler is quite superior to the stock evo intercooler; which is, yes, much better than the stock dsm sidemount. Ebay FMIC testing (data log lab dyno) vs Stock FMIC - evolutionm.net

I'm not trying to stab a dead horse, but I don't think many of you saw the results from Buscher's test. He tried his damnedest to argue his side, but he just won't conceed that aircharge heat didn't do that much damage. . . 10whp down at 2psi more boost on a significanly smaller intercooler means that a more equally sized ebay intercooler would have probably matched. And he posted it up himself. . . And he talks about heat from the compressor efficiency as if it matters at 40psi. We all need to remember that going from 28psi to 40psi on an 80*F day at 70% charge efficiency (about where an evo 16g will be at that level with common 400-450whp mods) is about 75*F difference alone. If the wonderful gt35r was at 80% efficiency at that 40psi power level (It's not) it would still be 30*F higher in temperature than an evo 16g at 70% efficiency at 28psi. Reference. Predominantly or back into the natureal relm of the import world: the lower the boost, even pushing a smaller turbo to its limit, the lower the percentage differences their are. All his dirty references to his own wife are subjective yet typical and thus proves: "it's not the meat but the motion, baby". It's not the temp drop, but the difference in power level and what you can achieve with the dollar you have.

For those of us who want a streetable 500whp car, the very ebay intercooler that DB borrowed is just fine. At some point, cooling the air down doesnt help as much. He didn't see enough knock to pop the motor and bickered about putting on the IAT activated timing control because his discussion was heat dissipation just to prove that one cools better than the other. When it all was moot. That's not the whole picture. It takes more and more drop in charge temperature to see an appreciable difference in power as you get lower and lower in initial charge temperature.

I know I'm late to the party here, but jesus. So much theory being thrown around, with no one that actually pushes anything doing the talking.

I'm a firm believer in a top to bottom core, and it is well known that they have much higher flow rates for a given core size than a side to side, but the trade off is they do not have as much efficiency. Just look at any intercooler chart for a legitimate intercooler core manufacturer.

We all know that the cooling efficiency for a given core type is determined by the temperature difference between the cooling air, and the charge air, as well as the time the air spends in an intercooler. Now you'll all say that a top to bottom doesn't have long enough tube to cool anything. Well sure it does. Lets look at two examples. Both have the same bar/plate density for simplicity. We'll say 50% of its tank area is flowable. Both are on an engine moving 1000cfm

Core 1 10"x20"x3" Side to side core. Its got a flow area of 0.104 sq ft. To achieve 1000cfm of airflow the air has to move 160fps. On a 20" long core its in there for 0.01s, not very long ehh?

Core 2, same size but top to bottom. It has a flow area of .204sq ft. for 1000cfm to flow through it, its has to move at 80fps. And it stays in the 10" long core about 0.01s. the same exact time.

Granted all this goes out the window once the flow rate starts going Way up and the pressure drop goes up. The side to side will have more time in the intercooler. But if all the cooling is done within the first half of the IC, does it really matter?

Here's where it starts getting interesting. A 1G DSM is so much better laid out for short route piping and a top to bottom intercooler. We all know the 1g bumper opening is about 7-8" tall depending on what bumper you have. this means that if you run a 10" tall core, the top few tubes don't get much cooling air. Not good. But the tanks on a top to bottom core don't need any airflow. So you can have a killer flowing core, that has 100% of the core in the bumper opening.

Pressure drop across the core is very very important as well. Every psi that is lost across the core, is one more that the compressor has to make. That's more heat in the air, and its compounded by probably decreasing compressor efficiency. It's very possible that the flow gains from a top to bottom, could offset the cores efficiency loss.

Here's something I did a while back for science. I had ####ed up my 20x8x3 ebay cooler, put a hole in it, so I was going to replace it. I jb welded up the hole, then jb welded a thermocouple into the exact middle of the core. Guess what it read? Exact same as my ait in my ucip. Meaning the air was as cooled as it was gonna get at that point. The rest of the specifics are I was on a WH1C, running about 25psi. It was 80* out, and my ait's at the end of a 4th gear pull were 125*. I also had more than 5psi drop across the IC. So not only does it not cool for shit, its restrictive as well. It was a definite improvement on my 14b at stock boost, but I think it was holding me back on my 16g at only 20psi.

Finally, Buschurs test shows exactly why eBay coolers suck. If he would have been on pump gas for BOTH tests the eBay would have lost significantly more power.

Anyway, I'm going to revisit the Dejon tool style three stockers welded together. It's got to be better than the eBay shitbox I have now, and I need the welding practice anyway.

bastarddsm said:

I know I'm late to the party here, but jesus. So much theory being thrown around, with no one that actually pushes anything doing the talking.

It's very possible that the flow gains from a top to bottom, could offset the cores efficiency loss.

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Not nit picking, but isnt that unproved theory as well?

bastarddsm said:

Pressure drop across the core is very very important as well. Every psi that is lost across the core, is one more that the compressor has to make. That's more heat in the air, and its compounded by probably decreasing compressor efficiency.

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Wouldn't this be fairly large problem for the small frame turbo guys, 14b/16g etc? A turbo that only holds 17psi to reline losing a couple psi across exchanger. Seems like the record chasing guys might want to look into this.

bastarddsm said:

Finally, Buschurs test shows exactly why eBay coolers suck. If he would have been on pump gas for BOTH tests the eBay would have lost significantly more power.

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He's also testing HIS race cooler against the evil ebay piece. He's also seems to think quite highly of his parts. Actually told my friend that his car will never make any power using anything other then BR's parts So id imagine that test is just slightly bias.

bastarddsm said:

Anyway, I'm going to revisit the Dejon tool style three stockers welded together. It's got to be better than the eBay shitbox I have now, and I need the welding practice anyway.

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Would these require completely custom end tanks? And you have that much faith in the factory cores?

Double post FTW!

I run a punishment/cx racing fmic. My boost gauge is tapped at the fpr. Im running wastegate pressure now. gauge reads ~11 psi max so does omni 4-bar tapped on the p-port of the TB.

Welding 3 smic's together? do you mean welding them in series? parallel? or cutting off the sides and welding them into one core? How do you plan to do that much welding? (every bar air tight?) I would say go all out and build your own... must be easier than cutting and pasting 3 together.

91stocker said:

Not nit picking, but isnt that unproved theory as well?

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No none of its unproved, top to bottoms flow better, the more pressure a compressor makes the higher temp the output is. Finding the combination that offsets each other is probably a far stretch. But its possible. The side to side isn't more than 10% more efficient.

91stocker said:

Wouldn't this be fairly large problem for the small frame turbo guys, 14b/16g etc? A turbo that only holds 17psi to reline losing a couple psi across exchanger. Seems like the record chasing guys might want to look into this.

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Yep. Even big turbo's. In my case, the 5psi drip was taking almost 10hp to compress the air. Plus the compressor efficiency losses, and the turbine efficiency....You get boned on the way in and the way out. .

91stocker said:

He's also testing HIS race cooler against the evil ebay piece. He's also seems to think quite highly of his parts. Actually told my friend that his car will never make any power using anything other then BR's parts So id imagine that test is just slightly bias.

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Yeah he's DB, but that doesn't change the fact that its known that ebay IC's are known to have shit efficiency. They usually don't even have any turbulators in them. The ebay cores will have have a higher ait, and on pump gas, that will really kill power.

91stocker said:

Would these require completely custom end tanks? And you have that much faith in the factory cores?

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Lol. Apparently you've never built anything before. Its just metal. With a saw, welder, and hamer you can do anything with it.

If one of it good for 195hp in a airflow deprived spot, I don't see why 3 of isn't good for 600hp in a better spot.

GSLENK said:

I run a punishment/cx racing fmic. My boost gauge is tapped at the fpr. Im running wastegate pressure now. gauge reads ~11 psi max so does omni 4-bar tapped on the p-port of the TB.

Welding 3 smic's together? do you mean welding them in series? parallel? or cutting off the sides and welding them into one core? How do you plan to do that much welding? (every bar air tight?) I would say go all out and build your own... must be easier than cutting and pasting 3 together.

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Lol you need a gauge on both sides of the fmic.

I weld them in paralell. Pretty easy. .

oldschool

how about using three supras SMIC

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/images/articles/inter26.jpg

bastarddsm said:

Yep. Even big turbo's. In my case, the 5psi drip was taking almost 10hp to compress the air. Plus the compressor efficiency losses, and the turbine efficiency....You get boned on the way in and the way out. .

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This really has me thinking on my 14b car

bastarddsm said:

Lol. Apparently you've never built anything before. Its just metal. With a saw, welder, and hamer you can do anything with it.

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I wasn't around during the days of the modified smic's haha. I was also thinking that you meant back to back(instead of side to side). Which ive seen done with custom ends. It looked pretty interesting.

bastarddsm said:

If one of it good for 195hp in a airflow deprived spot, I don't see why 3 of isn't good for 600hp in a better spot.

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Im seeing extremely high iat's on a simple 14b set up on the stock smic. Its almost as if there is no exchanger at all. I worked with the ducting on the front and back side to aid in air flow a bit as well.