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Real proof cheap FMICs are better than stock SMIC?

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I would reeeeeeally love to see the log of that 40psi pull, if you can post it.
What is that going to prove? The O.P. asked for proof that a cheap FMIC is better than the stock sidemount, and I provided a link. The car made almost 600whp on a hot-ass August day in Ohio where the intake air temps were over 130 degrees with a $200 intercooler that allowed the turbo to reach the peak airflow rating of the compressor.

In no way am I stating that better intercoolers aren't indeed more valuable, just trying to bring to the table that you don't necessarily need the best intercooler out there just to make power.

I have an old Buschur street core that I bought second-hand which I plan on using on my TSi AWD. When compared to a Punishment 1G core which is almost identical in core size, the Buschur core has three more rows of bars and fins....so obviously it's going to flow more air, and cool much better than a Punishment core would.

Hell we're using a beat-up old Dejon Race FMIC on Dave's car which is getting ready to go 9's....that intercooler had huge leak when I first bought it five years ago before eBay and other sites were flooded with knockoff cores, and now it's trapped 145mph and sees 37psi and 70+ lb/min on a regular basis.


I've always viewed intercoolers as sort-of a "run whatcha brung" topic- not many people are going to openly tell you that you could be making more power with a better intercooler....especially if you're going 12's or slower. No matter how crappy you think your intercooler setup is, someone somewhere has gone faster or made more power with a less-worthy setup.
 
Has anyone used both the stock SMIC and a cheap FMIC for some sort of circuit or rally racing? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions as well since intercoolers aren't only for use at the strip.
 
I have an old Buschur street core that I bought second-hand which I plan on using on my TSi AWD. When compared to a Punishment 1G core which is almost identical in core size, the Buschur core has three more rows of bars and fins....so obviously it's going to flow more air, and cool much better than a Punishment core would.

At what point do you think it's worth upgrading that Buschur street core?

I have one on my car and i'm wondering what i'd stand to gain by selling it for a bigger core. I'm seeing 52lbs/min @ 26psi, but link ALWAYS says the IATs are 80*, so i have no clue what they really are.
 
At what point do you think it's worth upgrading that Buschur street core?

I have one on my car and i'm wondering what i'd stand to gain by selling it for a bigger core. I'm seeing 52lbs/min @ 26psi, but link ALWAYS says the IATs are 80*, so i have no clue what they really are.
Honestly I'm not sure- I'll have to see what it does when the car is together and gets some track time. I was just impressed with how well it was built along with the quality of the core versus the Punishment unit for what I paid for it....you can definitely tell the Buschur core was geared toward making power.

Not to knock Punishment's products at all- their stuff is great for the price as long as it's within your goals!

That's some good airflow out of that turbo at that boost level, by the way. :thumb:
 
I've run 38-40psi with a 3in ebay core, made 527whp, trapped 138, and never had any problems. Maybe an expensive core would do a better job, but this one is sure getting it done now.
 
FWIW, I've been running the "PR" IC for over 4 years now, with an e3 16g at 28psi/pump daily and a few excursions into 32+ psi on the HX-40 before I lifted the head. In fact, it was one of the first few prototype kits purchased from the guy that originally sourced everything and put the kits together, before PR bought him out. (At least that's how I understand it). I believe I payed around $400 for the entire short-route kit. The only thing I changed was to upgrade to better couplers and clamps.

Regardless, it's the exact same core as what PR was selling the last time I checked.
 
Yes this is getting rediculous. i've run no IC and run much boost using ethanol and meth injection. I've run cheap ICs and run much boost using meth injection on pump gas. I've run great garrett cores (MAP has good deals on pte coolers with garrett cores) and quality endtanks from pte and seen the same results as all the above with race gas. What's the issue? . . . . . . . . . It is this. How cool is your air? How much are you flowing? Answer that here in this thread and leave the rest to speculation. Just because a shop is successful in one direction or plan of attack with these platforms means that they arn't stupid enough not to know how to make their results repeatable. Period. It does not mean they know best or can tell you something else doesn't work.

How about you impress instead of waiting for others to impress you. What's your IATs and airflow numbers? Where are YOUR logs? I didn't even look at the video, but I assume Justin is bringing to the table Ricky's car. And that car is the epitome of success while bargaining conventionalism. It's is purley about what works; NOT about what has been told him. He's been moving parts in and out of that car for a while and he has some suprising insite on what is purely working for him. He's been impressing.

Remember what works for one build is NOT, emperically I will even say, what will work for another build. Especially at a +500whp level.
 
Okay, I've talked to Lucas English a few times personally when I was having him rebuild my transmission. He isn't some douche bag who is going to lie to you and tell you need something you don't.

My guess is what he was telling you was that your current intercooler core is not capable of cooling the air enough to achieve the power goals you want, this does not mean the intercooler isn't capable of it at all. All Lucas was saying is that for your CURRENT SETUP your intercooler is the weak point and you could pick up a few more HP by increasing cooling by a "better" intercooler. However it is more than likely with A DIFFERENT build your intercooler COULD possibly meet those same goals.

Don't act like Justin does not know what he is talking about, just because YOU don't know him to be as big as Lucas English does not mean he does not know what he is talking about. There is a reason why everyone refers to him on any matter related to turbo tech on this forum.

Lucas English is a great all around tuner that is true, but even he acknowledges other people's ablilites as being beyond his own. There is also a reason he very rarely makes tech posts even though he does actually browse the forum once in a while when he is at work (mostly Aaron, but Lucas does on occasion I guess), I'd bet besides the fact him helping people makes him less money it's partly because the way people act like 12 year olds on this forum.

Seriously, keep this BS out of a thread that is about collecting DATA and not some Hershey bullshit that does no good to anyone. If I wanted anecdotal evidence as to which was better I would have posted this thread on another forum with different posting rules.
 
I believe what some people are trying to say is that an expensive, efficient & well designed intercooler will give better cooling/lower iats with back to back pulls, long pulls into 5th gear or autocross style racing. A cheaper intercooler will work just as good & even make the same power during shorter 1/4 mile pulls or a 10 second pull on the dyno but if the engine is being constantly boosted they may have considerably higher iat's than the expensive units. I say "may" because I have no data as to the fact & only suggesting. With that said than I like to think we can all agree on the fact that the longer your intercooler keeps the iat's down the more aggressive you can be with the tune ie more timing, leaner afr's but if your intercooler is not as efficient during extended use such as autocross racing or constant pulls on the street you will need to make your tune a bit more conservative ie keep the afr's a little fatter, pull some timing. Obviously you aren't going to maximize your full power but it will be a safe tune.

So people need to start logging their IAT'S and posting logs showing 1/4 mile iat's vs multiple, back to back pulls from lets say 45mph to 100mph or something to that effect.
 
I think Justin and silicosys4 would actually agree on almost every point, but for some reason it's coming across wrong.

Yes, you can make power with a cheap ebay core, but is it the most efficient way, no. If you want the average 300-400hp car running high 11's you probably won't notice a difference. But if you're going for records or trying to squeeze out every last bit of power then it makes a big difference. :dsm:
 
Well no. Not true. If you're going for records, you're looking at the least amount of resistance to flow. And just enough heat exchange to get you there. This is why Lucas English runs no IC with ethanol and meth injection. Turbos don't care about the heat exchange of the system; they care how much resistance to flow there is. After that, you have plenty of tools in the shed to make the most out of the flow that the little b!tch can give you. This is, of course, only for the sake of records. . . You yourself said in this thread on the first page, 'bigger is not always better'.

And No, end tank directors/baffles are NOT cost effective enough to merrit the investment. Even with the big dollar builds we see floating around here. There's just too many better ways to make ALL things work better easier and cheaper. And it is something yet to be proven that top to bottem endtanks are better.

Speaking of specific bable here, some of this talk is simply spew from Corky Bell. . . He's long been disputed. Look what he said about water/alky injection :rolleyes: Old school work is different from old school mentality. . . Let's get our brains up to the current times; and use particular, chosen old school techniques because they are proven.
 
Well no. Not true. If you're going for records, you're looking at the least amount of resistance to flow. And just enough heat exchange to get you there. This is why Lucas English runs no IC with ethanol and meth injection. Turbos don't care about the heat exchange of the system; they care how much resistance to flow there is. After that, you have plenty of tools in the shed to make the most out of the flow that the little b!tch can give you. This is, of course, only for the sake of records. . . You yourself said in this thread on the first page, 'bigger is not always better'.

And No, end tank directors/baffles are NOT cost effective enough to merrit the investment. Even with the big dollar builds we see floating around here. There's just too many better ways to make ALL things work better easier and cheaper. And it is something to be proven that to to bottem endtanks are better. Some of this talk is simply spew from Corky Bell. . . He's long been disputed. Look what he said about water/alky injection :rolleyes: Old school work is different from old school mentality. . . Let's get our brains up to the current times; and use particular, chosen old school techniques because they are proven.

I hear ya, but we both know that no IC isn't practical. I don't consider cheap and cost affective good arguments when talking about the most efficient IC system. No idea who Corky Bell is so... Top and bottom endtanks are better, it's not a statement, it's really a fact, as are the baffles. If we're talking bang for your buck then I completely agree, there are many other ways to spend the money to get more for your buck. Which that being said though, it's still not the "best option", if we're saying money is no object.

When I speak I'm assuming we are saying, money is no object so I guess it could be misconstrued, my bad :(.
 
"It's really a fact" . . . No. It's not. Prove it, if it's a fact. Emperical data should abound. Provide or exit. You argue that intercoolers with shorter route through the core provide better efficiency, yet you dismiss intercoolers like the ebay core that lets the air go by faster (less louvers or less/zero finely offset fins) but through more core.

With regard to cost effectiveness. Again, Lucas English found away to 'make records' without an IC entirely. So where is your arguement?

There should be no more warning to provide proof instead of your own personal logical deduction which HAS been provided by you specifically. "Pay rent or quit".

If money is no option, then there are SEVERAL costly or not ways better to cool or prevent the heating of the aircharge other than chargecooling with an air-air heat exchanger. Even a cam upgrade can do such (miller cycle), plus a score of other tools at one's disposal.
 
No idea who Corky Bell is so...

I'm pulling the BS flag on this. . . The images you posted here in this post, post #21, clearly are direct images from Maximum Boost by Corky Bell (pages 57 and 60). . . Stop while you are ahead. You are posting regurgitation from what you've read and not from what you know first hand; and your subjective opinion you provide has long been proven to be in question. With all respect to the the turbo teacher, there is much data to counter Corky's opinion outlined in the book he published and to which his graphs/drawings allude. Don't pass of what you've read as from you and your experience as fact. Afterall if you get the info from the entar webs (where you can easily get Bell's work), sooner or later some one will see it as not your information and that of someone elses. And further is pure opinion. And with contrary data to wit who runs top/bottom intercoolers and what is their effectiveness beyond conjecture, and the effect of distance and the louvers or frequency of offset or any of each or simply holes cut into the fins like some ebay core internal fins.
 
LOL @ that pic Craig.

Jeez, why all the hostility in here...?

Picking a charge cooling solution for a drag car is different than picking one for an endurance racer and is different than picking one for time attacker or even a pump gas daily street car. Which are we arguing about here, because it really seems like you're not all on the same page?

Ask yourself: what fuel, how aggressive on the tune, what compromises will you have to make and what's the primary goal for your intercooler?

Just want low 1/4 ET's? -Run alcohol or nitrous or both, F the intercooler.

What's my point? -There's way more than just one way to reach any goal.
 
LOL @ that pic Craig.

Jeez, why all the hostility in here...?

Picking a charge cooling solution for a drag car is different than picking one for an endurance racer and is different than picking one for time attacker or even a pump gas daily street car. Which are we arguing about here, because it really seems like you're not all on the same page?

Ask yourself: what fuel, how aggressive on the tune, what compromises will you have to make and what's the primary goal for your intercooler?

Just want low 1/4 ET's? -Run alcohol or nitrous or both, F the intercooler.

What's my point? -There's way more than just one way to reach any goal.

You can actually take an anemometer like the ones i use daily and put it at one end of an FMIC and have a regulated pressure on the other and you'll see the difference of a baffled FMIC vs a Non-baffle... Just a quick cave-man way of doing it but still works.
 
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I don't even know why I'm jumping back into this cluster#### but the OP is asking if a cheap FMIC is better than the stock SMIC and I still say it is. As mentioned above, you need to match your intercooler to your goals, but I have never heard of anyone losing power or hurting their performance by going from a stock SMIC to a FMIC, be it a cheap one or an expensive one(assuming you don't get on of those tiny little ones for like a miata or something).
 
Ebay intercooler testing from the Pros at Buschur Racing....the facts, the truth - evolutionm.net

I think I have the ebay ams clone intercooler. I'm not making 600whp though. Seems like the ebay IC's are mostly set up to meet the flow claims that they put on the ads. "1000cfm at 0.Xpsi" Their ability to reject heat from the charge seems to suffer from this. A little bit of meth and a big fan might help that $150 IC keep up with the BR core, but I'm sure nobody that spent $1000 on a BR setup is going to do that test.

Dave seems to think at that hp level it might perform similarly to a stock evo front mount, which I feel is way better than a stock SMIC. May or may not be better than an upgraded SMIC. I'll be watching my IATs and using my temp gun as I push things. Even small differences in the way an IC is installed can change the way it performs.
 
Heat transfer coefficient.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Surface area is equally as important as deltaTime.

Also, the efficiency of the intercooler is only part of the equation. The internal diameter of the intercooler pipes, the total volume, and surface area, are all important factors in calculating the overall thermal effectiveness of your "charge" system.
 
Head over to the road racing section for more info on tracking and keeping your car cooler for longer periods of time.


You need to block off and seal the intercooler to get air "into it"

Ive seen over 30psi until it dropped to around 28-30 psi on a bone stock side mount with race gas

Is it good? Nope.....Did it work? Yup


You can only make a pass or two before intake temps go through the roof this was with no meth

My point is you can do things, but it doesnt mean its the right way at all


I should have had a good front mount and sealed it off


The car was built to be a sleeper, but it wasnt ideal


You can make anything work, and I know of alot of shops with cool stickers that make things work. But its not the right way.
 
Thread cleaned and all flaming removed....again. If you girls are going to continue to sword-fight over who built who's car, taking the thread in a completely different direction that the O.P. intended, I'll go ahead and close it and you can all continue your discussion in the Private Hangout.
 
LOL @ that pic Craig.

Jeez, why all the hostility in here...?

Picking a charge cooling solution for a drag car is different than picking one for an endurance racer and is different than picking one for time attacker or even a pump gas daily street car. Which are we arguing about here, because it really seems like you're not all on the same page?

Ask yourself: what fuel, how aggressive on the tune, what compromises will you have to make and what's the primary goal for your intercooler?

Just want low 1/4 ET's? -Run alcohol or nitrous or both, F the intercooler.

What's my point? -There's way more than just one way to reach any goal.

Amen! A very common, successful, streetable way of persuing things is: pumpgas and ebay intercooler with a smaller nozzle set for water/alky mix. SOME ebay/budget intercoolers have propper internal fin division and tube width and proper external louvers and spacing.

With regard to going too big on a intercooler with a stock turbo, I had a stock side mount setup with a left over 13g on my beater laser. I thoroughly believe in boost leak testing. . . I swapped in the 2 and 1/2" X 22" X 12" FMIC I got from ebay and was suddenly able to do this with a neutral free rev:

<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid484.photobucket.com/albums/rr203/wheelhop_photos/1991 Laser nt to turbo/MVI_2035.mp4">
1) You can assume that the tiny 13g even spools a little faster, considering I can build 10psi with a simple stock computer neutral free rev. So I don't believe in the 'filling more volume makes for a lower spool' theory. And this was with left-to-right intercooler not a top-bottem.
2)I was able to hold boost higher longer to red line without running into knock. I forget how much time exactly it took to see knock while tuning with the stock sidemount. But I could never get it to knock with the fmic I got from ebay with very similar ambient conditions and the same stock 1g timing.

Infact for a while, a VERY long time ago, I had a 1987 t-bird TC topmount intercooler in the front of my old blue eclipse. It actually is just like the short tube long endtank design discussed by Bell. I later swapped to the longer tube small endtank design from ebay frowned upon in his book. Overall volume nearly identical (it was small enough to need to do NO cutting in the airdam.) I saw no difference in spool speed, massflow, or knock at 18psi creaping to 23 with the small 16g.

All the different configurations in this post worked for street and small 16g and smaller. As Delta448 has said, the best route is to pick your prefered habitat for the car and design around that instead of asking an overly generalized question. If one didn't know this question is too broad, that is just fine. You can learn exactly what you need on here. Ebay intercoolers; top brand intercoolers; what makes an intercooler work so you can pick out a cheap intercooler that performs like a top brand or vice versa; what other options are out there specific to your power goal in the habitat the car will be in; and on and on.

And absolutely JOEY A is right in my experience. I've seen a great increase in proper ducting to the intercooler. That line of reasoning is discussed by Corky Bell too. I'll post some same pictures that I've used as guidlines from Bell's book too:
 

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