You mis-read friend. I said the chinabay stuff may be junk but if I didn't use all chinabay stuff then the point of this build would be useless. I mean using name brand items that I bought for cheap off eBay is still a name brand item. The purpose behind this is for the people that want to modify their cars but are poor or can't spend the extra money on parts but are afraid to use eBay stuff. I want to show them what I have found, or will be finding out, that is good or bad. Hopefully everything will last years and I'll have dyno runs to back I up.

I have never changed my story. It's been the same. Thanks for the well wishes.

DSM_munky_man said:

Here is the cams I mentioned earlier, not sure if they are actual ebay, but seem cheaper than any of the vendors that have cams, nad never heard of these people.

DSM 4G63T PERFORMANCE CAMSHAFTS JDM 14B 16G FREE SHIP | eBay

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Actually, Delta Cam's prices are cheaper... Those are some overpriced re-grinds. Also DO NOT EVER use OBX cams, the lobes will round out, I had a buddy that tried them... All he got was junk cams, trash in his head, and a dumb story (because they wouldn't warranty/exchange them)

91stocker said:

It really seemed like you had a different story before you got flammed hardcore for 3 pages, then all that non sense got cleaned up, maybe not. But o well. gl anyway

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Your posts are making me laugh... It's a terrible thing to pay less for a part, even if it is the exact same part, because you didn't buy it from a vendor here. How is paying less for a part a terrible thing? It's the same part, the same quality, just a lower price. Is buying from another vendor with a lower price also a bad thing? There is so much controversy in your statements.

91stocker said:

It really seemed like you had a different story before you got flammed hardcore for 3 pages, then all that non sense got cleaned up, maybe not. But o well. gl anyway

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, I've been following since it started. He's been on a chinabay mission.

91stocker said:

Vendor vs vendor is entirely different. Vendor vs ebay now. You know the vendors have to pay monthly dues to sell on this site right? So to flash it in there face with a 4 page ebay build thread is a just... idk. Not good business on the sites part guess.

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It's a PUBLIC FORUM.. I guess it's not good business for us to have classifieds as well, huh? Maybe we should make it to where everyone pays; for a person so concerned with this sites well being, you aren't a SUPPORTING MEMBER. The vendors pay to advertise, that's what advertising is, is paying to get your name out there... That advertising pays for the site costs, which does amount up to a decent chunk of change. This is the largest DSM site on the internet, it's a HUGE advantage for vendors to have their name here.

FYI the vendors are on Ebay too... And guess what, their Ebay prices are lower than their website prices, crazy huh! But then again, perhaps you shouldn't buy from them because they are on ebay. (You know why vendors are on ebay? Because ebay is one of the largest online marketplaces!)

91stocker said:

Remember that when more vendors pull out from the site or dsm's all together. Then chinabay can be your go to source...

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Guess what, the vendor's sell? Someone else's product usually... You think they're making those garrett turbo's, JE pistons, Comp Cams, etc? No. Heck some of the biggest DSM innovators aren't even vendors, they sell their products to vendors, along with selling them individually.

Chances are if you are a vendor, based only on DSM's, you're going to go out of business anyway. Almost every single vendor on this site, sells alot more than just DSM parts!

Vendor's aren't going to pull out from the site because of Ebay, most of them have Ebay stores... It's another means of business, our world is going vastly e-commerce.. You know why? Prices can be lowered because of less costs of storing products. That also means that less workers are needed, since you don't have a huge warehouse, and because of online order taking/purchasing you need less sales people, which also lowers cost. The point of business is to turn a profit, the internet is expanding that ability.

91stocker said:

Remember that when more vendors pull out from the site or dsm's all together. Then chinabay can be your go to source...

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Not everybody buys only chinabay stuff. A lot of people buy things from our venders because they are better and we love our dsms. It seems like you have a problem that kspharris is doing a ebay build. He even stated earlier that this is not his only dsm and he has supported our vendors before.

KazooGS-T said:

Guess what, the vendor's sell? Someone else's product usually... You think they're making those garrett turbo's, JE pistons, Comp Cams, etc? No. Heck some of the biggest DSM innovators aren't even vendors, they sell their products to vendors, along with selling them individually.

Chances are if you are a vendor, based only on DSM's, you're going to go out of business anyway. Almost every single vendor on this site, sells alot more than just DSM parts!

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I agree 100%.

91stocker said:

I hope that was not a serious question...

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Are you simple enough to think Slowboy or MAP forges those turbochargers and engine internals by hand, with a searing hot chunk of metal and an anvil? Do they have their own brand occasionally? Absolutely! But chances are, someone else made them for them.

91stocker said:

Can you imagine how many cheap skates will flock to ebay if this guy has any kind of success at all. They already bi*** about the incredibly cheap parts we have.



Thats my point dipshit. To even ask a question like that...

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You joined a little over a year ago, there has been countless Ebay build threads... And I do mean hundreds of them, for much longer than you have been here. Guess what, the vendors haven't run away, leaving the DSM community high-and-dry. Ebay has been around since what, 1995? From my experiences, the DSM community and products has only DRASTICALLY increased since then.

richard33 said:

This "build" is for a n/t 420a motor so even if these parts are proven it's not going to effect the vendors sales since most of their products are aimed at the 4g market.

Doesn't everyone use ebay parts on 420as anyways? It seems that way at least. i think this build is the OP way of justifying using ebay crap

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Didn't know that the 420a was offered in 1g's specifically a 1991 2.0L n/t (n/a 4g63). Guess you learn something new everyday

91stocker said:

Can you imagine how many cheap skates will flock to ebay if this guy has any kind of success at all. They already bi*** about the incredibly cheap parts we have.



Thats my point dipshit. To even ask a question like that...

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You should leave this thread so it doesn't get locked. If he has success then good. I don't see why you would pay more for a part that is just as reliable as another but pay more. Some people aren't rich. Some people have families to support, bills to pay. Some people can't afford a $700 exhaust system when they can buy one for $300 that performs just as well. All kspharris is trying to do is help us people who don't have a million dollars to spend on our dsms.

Alright since you all arent going to drop it, i'll delete my posts and let this get back on topic.

DSMxJB said:

You should leave this thread so it doesn't get locked. If he has success then good. I don't see why you would pay more for a part that is just as reliable as another but pay more. Some people aren't rich. Some people have families to support, bills to pay. Some people can't afford a $700 exhaust system when they can buy one for $300 that performs just as well. All kspharris is trying to do is help us people who don't have a million dollars to spend on our dsms.

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Absolutely. He's not the first, nor the last to do this either. But he clearly stated he wanted to do it to test durability and performance. If a product comes onto the market and outperforms a more expensive product, at a fraction of the price, (has been done numerous times, how do you think all these parts have made it for DSM's? There was no DSMlink just a few years back, only HKS products) then vendors will also distribute these products.

Just shortly ago, Holset's were considered to be garbage diesel turbos... Now most vendors sell these exact "junk turbos".... People pay 1k for a greddy intercooler setup still, it by no means has any standing that it is the best product offering on the market, especially at the price. You can get an ETS setup for less and perform 10x better.

91stocker said:

Alright since you all arent going to drop it, i'll delete my posts and let this get back on topic.

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It's more along the lines of you having such a narrow viewpoint, that instead of admitting you MIGHT be wrong (which was pointed out by a wise-man even) you instead decide to bury the evidence, after destroying this guy's thread by talking down/badly about the guy.

KazooGS-T said:

You joined a little over a year ago, there has been countless Ebay build threads... And I do mean hundreds of them, for much longer than you have been here. Guess what, the vendors haven't run away, leaving the DSM community high-and-dry. Ebay has been around since what, 1995? From my experiences, the DSM community and products has only DRASTICALLY increased since then.



Didn't know that the 420a was offered in 1g's specifically a 1991 2.0L n/t (n/a 4g63). Guess you learn something new everyday

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guess I skimmed over the 1g nt. Fail

91stocker said:

Alright since you all arent going to drop it, i'll delete my posts and let this get back on topic.

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I've been reading your posts, the fact you think that just because of a build thread vendors will pull out of the DSM community makes you seem ignorant. As I've told you before, people will mostly go with quality products since most sellers will back their products up, just because the OP might have success with his ebay built doesn't mean everyone else will. You're making an extremely huge deal out of this, I personally don't know what you have to win or lose in this whole debate. If any vendor is retarded enough to pull out just because someone is building Ebay cars instead of buying their products, then they suck at doing business and are just whiny little bitches. EVERYONE will do it differently, if it stresses you out so badly buy a Honda or a newer car. I'm sure most of the DSM community isn't concerned about vendors not supporting our platform, if one vendor leaves another will take its place.

Well i wish you the best of luck my friend. Looking forward to the outcome of this build

KazooGS-T said:

It's more along the lines of you having such a narrow viewpoint, that instead of admitting you MIGHT be wrong (which was pointed out by a wise-man even) you instead decide to bury the evidence, after destroying this guy's thread by talking down/badly about the guy.

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He can't really bury it, specially since most of the things he said have been quoted. I do think its pretty cowardice to just delete all the posts, but each person has their own way of dealing with situations.

BRB, gonna try to undercut the vendors with an ebay listing.

Just my 2 cents a friend of mine and I both have CXRacing EvoIII 16G's from ebay and they're holding up great. Good spool and no shaft play at all. They're supposed to be individually computer balanced and DSM Graveyard even sells them now. Good luck with the build XD

Would DIY people then be undercutting vendors? To buy the top mount T3 setup with down pipe and 4" intake we made for my friend's car would likely be a sum greater than what most people paid for their whole car. It only cost me $200, and I got the flanges from someone who doesn't know what DSM stands for.

One can't ignore the improvement of Chinese goods. They've only been making turbos for 10-15 years, and some are not terrible. The turbo foum guys love the Y2K GT4X copies. I predict within the decade (if we can still afford to use internal combustion engines) you'll see the $400 turbo putting a $1500 garrett to shame. Holset and Borg Warner seem to stay abreast of the most recent technolgy and will likely hold an advantage. Enough to hold off big auto makers investing in Chinese OEM? Who knows.

I've been using my Chinese plasma cutter for a few weeks now and it is amazing. To get a similar machine from Miller or Lincoln is at least twice the price with 2/3rds the duty cycle. I'm hoping to put it into a production scenario soon, so I may see how much they stand behind their 5 year warranty.

As I'm assembling more tools in my shop, I'm planning on becoming a vendor here with items I've never seen for sale. My hope is to be so innovative that even if I'm copied it will be known where the original comes from. You don't see Chinese toe eliminator or alternator relocation kits... yet.

A big thing I learned in school, while they paid for Vietnamese kids to get doctorates and start a university in Veitnam, is that you can't count on anything, and you have to adapt to whatever is thrown at you. My fellow engineers and I were paying the school so that they could pay the tuition for our Asian replacements. Where they used to hire Americans to fix the problems in the Veitnamese factories, now they can hire similarly educated Veitnamese at a much lower rate. Jobs that were a sure thing for new US graduates, are now non-existent. Adapt or be phased out. I'm not bitter, that's life, that's what the school had to do to remain relevant.

Strange how such a simple thread can start such huge debates. I will be watching it. As alluded to before, if the vendors can't deliver unique, superior, or competitive products, then I don't owe them a damn thing. The world moves too fast for me to pay them not to change.

Do get delta cams, you'll be better off than the ebay grinds. Do get ebay cam gears though : )

With regard to the 'what does dsm stand for' and being frugal enough to make you own manifold, I think he was saying that is cheaping out on the vendors too. And I have to admit, most like it when a person wants to be innovative enough to tackle a decent exhaust manifold design. It's not too complicated. But it takes a lot of time in placement and replacement, and some practice with a welder. As well a good basic knowledge of the nuances of the metal being used.

I don't think he mentioned a thing about the cost difference between a new garrett and a used holset. He was discussing those manufacturers perceived dedication to fresh technology. . . And I am not saying myself that borg or a holset invest more in new tech. They just prioritize differently (based on the entire movement of each of the great tech advances all of those companies have made over the last 20 years). And that is completely off topic and immensely preferential.

I'm not sure he's saying anything about not recognizing what a good vendor does for what some would call a dieing automotive performance community. He DID say he wants to be a vendor himself and wants to offer unique and very beneficial products. Which in itself does show it isn't dieing.





Really guys. You're not banned or suspended or even locked out of forums here if you never buy even a spark plug from a supporting vendor. That's not what this community is about. If it's more affordable for a part that has proven to have similar quality, like many of the intercooler kits that where out there, then you see a shift by the demand. Now you see vendors adjusting. Look at the prices of some of these vendor intercooler kits!!! You get a place to actually contact when you may have an issue AND you get a decent product at a good price. How did that happen? Would some of the chinese intercooler kits out there have something to do with that?

I don't think "the platform is dieing". The old way of doing it is though. Appreciating what a vendor does for the community means what? I greatly appreciate that they find a way to offer items of similar quality (like most of the lower cost intercooler kits, AFPRs, flanges, gates, lower cost manifolds) at similar costs now. And because they offer real service, they get my business. That's the tipping point for me as a consumer. A chinese turbo is NOT a similar product to a real turbo still. . . At this point. But as the curve is trending, it appears they may someday. And as the curve is trending, the vendors will adjust as they have with other items. . . If the item is not the same then it is not in the same market. Something like a fuel pump and a turbo still at this point seams not to be proven enough or does not have quality initially to be the same. And the market target is different. Vendors arn't targetting folks who want to just get by, and just say, 'I have a gt35 turbro and a wally-bro. So don't front, bro'. If you're penurious, then you can't afford decent service for more expensive items, you can look for used (holsets, garrets, mhi, whatever) or keep up with these types of threads and take a gamble. If you can't afford the service and quality, can you ultimately afford the gamble? Those questions have nothing to do with anyone here other than the individual. Not even the vendors livelyhood is affected by these questions. Because, the person mulling this over is not even in their market.

An old muscle car gear head once gruffly muttered to me through his mustach and scrached his chin, "yea they sure don't make 'em like the used to." I said, "Thankfully." These cars have been completely deciphered. The best thing is for not resisting innovation to be borne from competition and making do with what you have anywhere in any sales medium and market.

If you have a moral issue with using chinese parts, then ask where your vendors get their parts from. If you have a moral issue supporting oversees jobs, then ask vendors where the work that goes into a specific part comes from. Buy to satisfy your morality. And let the experiment here continue on. This as of now is not promoting something that goes against your morals. It infact may go the other way. There's ALOT of clutter to sift, as is, for anyone who is looking at this to get to the bottem of what's going on here and what the results will be.

Sorry all for taking so long on this. Don't five up on me. I'm just a little slow and I work all the time, selling a house and have a couple other projects going on.

kspharris said:

Sorry all for taking so long on this. Don't five up on me. I'm just a little slow and I work all the time, selling a house and have a couple other projects going on.

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Take your time bro, we all do .

When I was growing up, the word was "Japanese Junk" But as they gained experience and trained their work force they got better - to the point that Japanese cars are better built than most American cars.

Well now it is "Chinese Junk" and yes as time goes by, their manufacturing will get better.

So if the OP wants to do this project, good for him, let us know what you think. But it is all about timing, I have no doubt that Chinese Turbos will one day be a good as the rest.
Are we there yet? I guess that is what this is all about.

I have bought a ton of Ebay stuff but personally, I stay away from anything that moves, seals, or is electronic, except for gauges which seem to work fine.

i would do this to the turbo, this could possibly be one reason they crap out so fast.
YouTube - ‪Porting an eBay 20g‬‏

also, I'd tack a few welds on the wastegate flapper, my ebay 16g's flapper was the same way, all loose and whatnot.