ECUlink later, what gauges now?

AskDrStupid · Mar 21, 2011

So I know there are TONS of posts about what gauges to get (there is a 26 page long one for cryin out loud) but I have a few very specific questions.

I plan on getting ECUlink in the future but for now I want to update my gauges. Currently I have a mechanical boost gauge and a narrowband AF gauge. I'm thinking that I need a digital boost gauge and a wideband AF gauge.

Questions :aha:

-Is an EGT gauge useless now because of wideband AF gauges?
-Does datalogging through ECUlink eliminate the need for all but boost and AF gauges (and maybe even an AF gauge)?
-Do you need to weld into the lower exhaust for proper installation of a wideband AF gauge on a 1g?
-Does it make sense to save money by buying Glow Shift gauges rather than an AEM gauge?

Whew. Thanks guys!

92AWDHX40 · Mar 21, 2011

You need a wideband, i have boost, and oil those are the top 3 ive seen a thread on this long. You need a bung on the downpipe or use the wideband in the factory look at ecmtuning site a description of this is there. You still need a wideband gauge with link. Pick a gauge and go with it lots of i use this and that all in your preference and your money and you, ive used autmeter , glowshift, and now prosport the latter two all made overseas taiwan, very similar take a pick of many out there.

T is for TURBO · Mar 21, 2011

1. Boost
2. Oil Pressure
3. Wideband (if tuning)

In that order.

As for a wideband there are many options. AEM and Inovate are good units. I have a AEM wideband and so far I'm happy with it.
Also, can log boost with DSLlink as well, so long has you have a map sensor. But, its always nice to have the guage for immedeate inspection.
As for EGT, they are nice to have, but not really needed anymore now that widebands are MUCH cheaper than they were 5+ years ago.

92AWDHX40 · Mar 21, 2011

I like have a wideband up to you.

Doubleot · Mar 21, 2011

Boost
Wideband
Trans temp (Auto Trans)
Oil Pressure

I put oil pressure as last because IMO if your stock one works why get an aftermarket one? Pretty much all you need in the oil field (Unless you are losing sleep over it) is your stock gauge that tells you if you have pressure or not.

FYI ECMlink

AskDrStupid · Mar 21, 2011

T is for TURBO said:
As for EGT, they are nice to have, but not really needed anymore now that widebands are MUCH cheaper than they were 5+ years ago.

Thank you! Thats why people stopped recommending them after 2005! I kept seeing all these threads from 2003 talking about how an EGT gauge is the s##t.

Doubleot said:
Boost
Wideband
Trans temp (Auto Trans)
Oil Pressure

I put oil pressure as last because IMO if your stock one works why get an aftermarket one? Pretty much all you need in the oil field (Unless you are losing sleep over it) is your stock gauge that tells you if you have pressure or not.

Cool! I'm fine with just using the stock gauge for that. I was going to install a new oil pressure sending unit so it seems like thats good enough.

iugrad92turbo said:
You need a bung on the downpipe or use the wideband in the factory look at ecmtuning site a description of this is there.

Can anyone elaborate on this? I dont understand (grammer aside)

.

Oh, also its a manual transmission so I wouldn't need a transmission temperature gauge. :hmm:

LiquidX · Mar 21, 2011

All you really need is a boost gauge (mechanical or digital) and a wideband. The oil pressure gauge isn't required but it's very helpful. I would suggest the Innovate LC-1 for the wideband as it's more accurate than the AEM unit and at the same cost.

If you are going to run ECMLink v3 then you do not need to weld a bung in the down pipe as you can simulate the narrow band signal and install the wideband in the front o2. There are no negative effect with having it mounted there.

You don't need a temperature gauge.

T is for TURBO said:
Also, can log boost with DSLlink as well, so long has you have a map sensor. But, its always nice to have the guage for immedeate inspection.

Do you drive around with the lap top constantly logging. I doubt it. You want a boost gauge regardless if you are logging or not.

AskDrStupid · Mar 21, 2011

All right we are really getting somewhere! This info has raised a few more questions from me though...

LiQUiDx said:
The oil pressure gauge isn't required but it's very helpful.

Under what conditions would an aftermarket oil pressure gauge over the stock one be helpful? :confused:

Do you back off the motor at the extremes?

LiQUiDx said:
I would suggest the Innovate LC-1 for the wideband as it's more accurate than the AEM unit and at the same cost.

How is it better? Isn't brand recognition associated with reliability?

LiQUiDx said:
If you are going to run ECMLink v3 then you do not need to weld a bung in the down pipe as you can simulate the narrow band signal and install the wideband in the front o2. There are no negative effect with having it mounted there.

This is exactly the kind of information I am going after! But does this mean that I need to install ECMlink in order to read my wideband AF gauge?

Thanks again!

95talongirl · Mar 21, 2011

LiQUiDx said:
All you really need is a boost gauge (mechanical or digital) and a wideband. The oil pressure gauge isn't required but it's very helpful. I would suggest the Innovate LC-1 for the wideband as it's more accurate than the AEM unit and at the same cost.

If you are going to run ECMLink v3 then you do not need to weld a bung in the down pipe as you can simulate the narrow band signal and install the wideband in the front o2. There are no negative effect with having it mounted there.

You don't need a temperature gauge.

Do you drive around with the lap top constantly logging. I doubt it. You want a boost gauge regardless if you are logging or not.

It is still recommended that the WB be about 32" from the turbine housing. The actual reason for this is the extreme heat. Wideband O2 sensors are very sensitive and this helps with their longivity. But that's really the only reason for it being further from the turbo. EGT gauges are also helpful for tuning purposes; at least in the older days. The WB's have gotten pretty darn good, as you have found out. EGT's are not as popular anymore. But you can use EGT to tune your car. If its running too hot, you know its running lean, ect. Most engines will make maximum power at an AFR of between 12.0 and 13.5; the EGT may vary from 1250F to 1800F. So you can see how you could use both.

I have an AEM WB, and it's been good thus far.

Boost gauge is always good to have.

Autometer FTW. When it comes to instruments that relate to how you car is running, why compromise quality?

And no, you do not need DSMlink to have the WB work. In fact you have to tell Dsmlink to look for it.

LiquidX · Mar 21, 2011

The wideband will not be damaged. Many have it in the front location with no I'll effects for many years. You di realize widebands come stock on vehicles don't you?

AskDrStupid · Mar 21, 2011

Just install the wideband O2 sensor that comes in the gauge kit in place of the stock O2 sensor on the O2 sensor housing?

95talongirl · Mar 21, 2011

LiQUiDx said:
The wideband will not be damaged. Many have it in the front location with no I'll effects for many years. You di realize widebands come stock on vehicles don't you?

Of course. Honda and and the Toyota come to mind off hand that has cars that came stock with widebands. But its a matter of turbo vs. non turbo and use. I'm sure more cars do now..

Per AEM's instructions:
"Mount the O2 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high EGT's (over 800C), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM for extended periods of time or plan on running leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches or more downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat."

To me, this is not so much as damaging it as it is shortening its life due to heat. That's all.

MY1GDSM · Mar 21, 2011

LiQUiDx said:
The wideband will not be damaged. Many have it in the front location with no I'll effects for many years. You di realize widebands come stock on vehicles don't you?

I do... But, where are they located since you mention it? not near a turbine housing...

Regardless it still doesn't change the fact that despite being a "Wiseman" an a leading member here it still doesn't make it the correct information... Yes people are/have been running them there... but not telling someone the Whole story or trying to say the info above is wrong is misguided...

He's a tidbit of info I've posted else where on why...
Wideband o2 bung location

the Bosch sensor I use has a parasitic resistance in the common path between the pump-cell and the measurement cell. This resistance has a positive temperature coefficient (resistance increases with temp) and is dependent on the sensor's housing temperature. Because it is buried inside the sensor it cannot be directly measured. When measuring the sense-cell impedance or pump-cell impedance it is essentially in series with either. Both, sense-cell and pump-cell impedance, have a negative temperature coefficient. Because the heater control of the Bosch unit depends on either the sense-cell or pump-cell impedance, this parasitic resistance can disrupt the temperature control by essentially compensating the negative coeff. of either when the housing gets too hot. This means that no temperature control is possible and the resultant values would be all over the map. the LC-1 I use can detect that condition and throws a sensor timing error because the sensor timing in the circuit is one of the variables that is dependent on the sensor housing temp.

Not everyone's Wideband controller is this smart and tells you there's a problem

The end result of all this is that the sensor should be installed as I've said already. Before the cat at least 18" away from the turbo and no closer then 12" from the exit of the exhaust and as Kevin said between 10:00 and 2:00 position,because condensation can form in the exhaust and damage the sensor

I ordered a replacement Wideband sensor a few years back a Napa when they asked what car I told them it was on a late 99 Jetta :thumb:

guess where that sensor is located? not 3" from a turbo...

At the bare minimum if someone has no other options of where to place it they should make up a heat-shield like this below...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

LiquidX · Mar 21, 2011

MY1GDSM said:
Yes people are/have been running them there... but not telling someone the Whole story or trying to say the info above is wrong is misguided...

Sorry, it's a tad hard to include every piece of information while on my iphone when I have time to type at a stop light

MY1GDSM said:
At the bare minimum if someone has no other options of where to place it they should make up a heat-shield like this below...
You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You can choose to run that if you wish. Myself, other forum members, Tom (twdorris)[ECMLink honcho] and even other platforms (I've personally read around anywhere from stock location, 3-6", 18", 36", etc on other platform forums) all run a front o2 sensor located wideband with no issues at all. It has the highest response rate and lowest chance for an exhaust leak to interfere with it's read out of the measured air to fuel ratio.

95talongirl said:
Of course. Honda and and the Toyota come to mind off hand that has cars that came stock with widebands. But its a matter of turbo vs. non turbo and use. I'm sure more cars do now..

Per AEM's instructions:
"Mount the O2 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high EGT's (over 800C), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM for extended periods of time or plan on running leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches or more downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat."

To me, this is not so much as damaging it as it is shortening its life due to heat. That's all.

If that's the case, then why isn't the narrow band sensor located 36" away. It's receiving the same amount of heat as posted in the quote but have a long life span. Why would a wideband suffer differently especially being newer technology than a narrowband.

AskDrStupid said:
Just install the wideband O2 sensor that comes in the gauge kit in place of the stock O2 sensor on the O2 sensor housing?

Correct. That is only going to work if you either have ECMLink v3 (or other program that can simulate narrow band), or utilize a wideband that has a controller that will output a narrow band signal like the Innovate LC-1 does.

AskDrStupid · Mar 21, 2011

I searched using new keyterms from this thread and I found other people who have been running the wideband O2 sensor in the stock location on a 1g. Here is one thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/381427-aem-wideband-02-where-put-02-bung.html

I'm leaning towards just installing the sensor there at my own risk. :hmm:

And I fully agree with 95talongirl

95talongirl said:
When it comes to instruments that relate to how you car is running, why compromise quality?

Lastly, does "simulating narrowband" affect performance at all? What is this exactly?

LiQUiDx said:
Correct. That is only going to work if you either have ECMLink v3 (or other program that can simulate narrow band), or utilize a wideband that has a controller that will output a narrow band signal like the Innovate LC-1 does.

95talongirl · Mar 22, 2011

LiQUiDx said:
If that's the case, then why isn't the narrow band sensor located 36" away. It's receiving the same amount of heat as posted in the quote but have a long life span. Why would a wideband suffer differently especially being newer technology than a narrowband.
.

Maybe this is why:

"A narrow band, or zirconia, oxygen sensor is a sensor that uses two electrodes and an oxygen-reactive fuel cell to create an electric current...A wide band oxygen sensor is very similar to a narrow band sensor, the only difference being that it also has an electrochemical gas pump attached. It can also process its own data."

Honestly, I have no idea where the put the WB o2's on those cars that come stock with them, so I can't comment on that theory. I do know that the addition of a turbo seems to affect where they sensor is located. It very well could be just there wasn't enough testing done to see how long the sensor could last if it was put closer to the turbo? The other factors to look at is how much the car is driven, how hard its driven, ect. I guess to the engineers those distances are a good "medium" for all types of driving. Perhaps?

Simulating the Narrowband won't affect performance. When you tell DSMlink to look for the WB reading, it uses that to determine the other factors. That's really it.. Keeps the computer happy since there is *something* being sent; even if its acting as a "dummy" signal.

koz99eclipse · Mar 22, 2011

As far as the boost gauge goes, I recommend the aem truboost. Its a gauge and controller in one, easy to use, and i've had mine for 3 years and I have never had any issues with it.

95talongirl · Mar 22, 2011

koz99eclipse said:
As far as the boost gauge goes, I recommend the aem truboost. Its a gauge and controller in one, easy to use, and i've had mine for 3 years and I have never had any issues with it.

Autometer is for us po folks.

AskDrStupid · Mar 22, 2011

OK so I read the Wideband O2 comparison experiment(http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/FM_WB_Shootout.pdf) and I really want an Innovate wideband becuase of its improved latency over the AEM and because I can use it before I get ECMlink.

But there are 2 kits that Innovate offers. If I am just going to plug the O2 sensor in the stock location on a 1g and I want to use the gauge before I get ECMlink which kit do I use?

This: MTX-L Wideband O2 Digital Air/fuel Ratio Gauge

Or This: XD-1 : Universal Programmable Digital Gauge / Air Fuel Ratio Guage

There is like a $100 dollar price difference and I'm not made of money!

LandoAWD · Mar 22, 2011

You can't run it in the stock location without a way to lie to the ECU, so you may wish to re-prioritize or weld a bung in.

AskDrStupid · Mar 22, 2011

LandoAWD said:
You can't run it in the stock location without a way to lie to the ECU, so you may wish to re-prioritize or weld a bung in.

LiQUiDx said:
That is only going to work if you either have ECMLink v3 (or other program that can simulate narrow band), or utilize a wideband that has a controller that will output a narrow band signal like the Innovate LC-1 does.

LandoAWD, according to LiQUiDx you can use the Innovate LC-1 wideband without ECM link because the LC-1 fools the ECU with a narrowband signal (see further up in the thread).

I'm just confused about the 2 products I referenced in my previous post. I guess I should have asked: "Do both of these products simulate a narrowband signal?" I figured someone on here would have experience with this.

LandoAWD · Mar 22, 2011

Doh. I'm so used to the gauge controllers. Ignore me.

Mark4g63t · Mar 22, 2011

Get a Defi Boost/Vaccuum Gauge and a UEGO wideband..Both in a cluster bezel pod.

ArticNemesis · Mar 22, 2011

LandoAWD said:
You can't run it in the stock location without a way to lie to the ECU, so you may wish to re-prioritize or weld a bung in.

The innovate lc-1 has two outputs, one for the wideband signal, and a 0-1volt narrowband ouput.

You'd just have to wire that into the ecu's front 02 signal, and have the lc1 simulate the narrowband signal.

[edit] few minutes late, had too many tabs open in browser and just got around to reading/answering this one.

MY1GDSM · Mar 22, 2011

AskDrStupid said:
But there are 2 kits that Innovate offers.

This: MTX-L Wideband O2 Digital Air/fuel Ratio Gauge

Or This: XD-1 : Universal Programmable Digital Gauge / Air Fuel Ratio Guage

There is like a $100 dollar price difference and I'm not made of money!

Innovate offers more then just those 2 gauges...
You could also use a Lc-1 with a DB gauge...

Here's a few... Extrema Psi ~ Innovate Motorsports

EDIT: I guess I'm a bit to slow also

But, Is any one actually running using the simulated wideband signal them selves... ? I know it can be done with the LC-1 and probably others because you can reprogram the analog outputs to whatever you would like an one out put is already set up this way... But what about some of the other Widebands out their?

The Top DSM Community on the Web

ECUlink later, what gauges now?

AskDrStupid

92AWDHX40

T is for TURBO

92AWDHX40

Doubleot

AskDrStupid

LiquidX

AskDrStupid

95talongirl

LiquidX

AskDrStupid

95talongirl

MY1GDSM

LiquidX

AskDrStupid

95talongirl

koz99eclipse

95talongirl

AskDrStupid

LandoAWD

Retired

AskDrStupid

LandoAWD

Retired

Mark4g63t

ArticNemesis

MY1GDSM

Similar threads

Latest posts

Build Thread Updates

Vendor Updates

Latest Classifieds