I'm planning to make a change on my car and move away from rising rate fuel pressure system, I hadn't bought injectors for quite some time so my information on which ones were good was a bit out of date.

I started searching around and there is a lot of hype from various manufacturers about different types and thought I'd ask for some feedback on ones you guys had tried. I need a few things, injectors that will work well at 70psi both off and on throttle, Deliver up to 750whp worth of E85 at 70psi, stock DSM style fuel rail fitment.

I am moving away from a rising rate system for several reasons, one of them is being able to protect engines in that I can detect any change in fuel pressure being a result of starvation or pump failure (this is the #1 reason, you can actually have a fuel pres warning that means something!). Simplify the hoses and routing in the engine bay. Repeatability and predictability in the tuning. One less failure point that can cost an engine since the team really cant afford to replace those, ever.

A friend of mine who worked at Honda Performance Division during the development of the LMP and Indy Car engine has offered to help out in the tuning department and this is going to be done on top notch Motec equipment so we wont have an issue on the tuning side!

Does anyone have an recommendations? It also needs to be affordable! We run on a shoestring budget on this team!

Fuel injector clinics new 2150Hi-Z Would be perfect for your current goal and would still give you room to grow on e85.

Or a slightly more afordable injector that would work is the The FIC 1680cc BlueMAX Saturated / High Impedance Ball & Seat Injectors.

I am already running the Bosch 1600cc injectors now and we run out of capacity with them thats why we only tuned up to 630whp or so since the car changed over to E85. I'm not sure going to a 1680 would give us enough headroom...

Imback, have you used the FIC 2150 injectors? How were they for cruise and part throttle? We need to be able to control the car well in transitions and corner exits. We are harder on parts than almost anything...

Wasn't aware you already had that large injectors the 2150's are really the only thing larger then 1600cc's besides the the FIC BlueMax 1750cc or 1850cc Low impedance Injectors...

I haven't used these injectors but it is my understanding, That the 2150cc High Z Injectors have Great linearity and idle and will work well at elevated fuel pressure... .

What turbo are you running? seems like you should have been able to get a bit more out of it with as much Fuel as you had/have.

Only reson I ask is... .
A member semi-local to me made 722awhp with BlueMax Low Imp. 1650cc's

Also, FYI the 1850cc's are about half the price of the 2150's

The turbo is ~61mm. We could make more power if we wanted but a power number doesnt mean anything to us unless we are 100% confident that we can make that same power number, safely, on track, for hours on end at every altitude and condition 30deg F to 120deg F... so we run much more conservative tunes than a typical street or drag car would and that means need a bit bigger injectors.

Also the extra 50cc does make a difference as well. It seems like the FIC 1750 or 1850s may be a promising option for us. I am looking into them now.

gixxerdrew said:

The turbo is ~61mm. We could make more power if we wanted but a power number doesn't mean anything to us unless we are 100% confident that we can make that same power number, safely, on track, for hours on end at every altitude and condition 30deg F to 120deg F... so we run much more conservative tunes than a typical street or drag car would and that means need a bit bigger injectors.

Also the extra 50cc does make a difference as well. It seems like the FIC 1750 or 1850s may be a promising option for us. I am looking into them now.

Click to expand...

Very understanable... .

Are you running an Injector Driver now? I know it's recommend for those size injectors which bumps up the total cost. but, would still less then the 2150cc's... .

But, if you were running with-out one with Bosch 1600's. I don't see with why you couldn't get away with it, with these... .

The MoTeC stuff can drive basically anything. I had a little trouble with the AEM on the 1600s though without a driver.

The bluemax and 2150Z injectors have greaqt driveability but for a build like yours looking for consistaqncy you would want to go with the FIC injector box if you use the 1750s or the 1850s where as with the 2150's they don't require the box and because they respond so quick similar to the ID 2100s you won't have issues with driveability under part throttle or cruising. I have a set of aftermarket modded bosch injectors but wouldn't want to tell you to pick them up till I had tested them and knew how they performed but they fit the showlace budget and flow from others is on par with all the other big boy injectors.

the big question though is how is the rest of your fuel system setup? Your gonna want ss filters and proclassic lines along with a anodized tank of some sort because you will get a residue build up from using a gas specific setup and also have to deal wih seaping threw regular SS fuel lines over extended use.

When you say non-rising rate, you mean a static fuel pressure, with no boost-reference?
I'm sure glad I'm not tuning that for you.

Since you've got the Motec, have you given any thought to staged injectors? It could potentially give you more precise control in lower flow situations while still delivering the total system flow necessary. The downside is of course the extra plumbing work and locating the second bank of injector bosses.

I don't know if you're at liberty to discuss the details of your car, but maxing out 4 1600's at 630 whp sounds a little odd to me. That's roughly 11 lbs/min of fuel, so even running 0.68 lambda you should be good for low-mid 70 lb/min of airflow.

What kind of pump setup are you guys running?

2gGSX is correct. Maxing out 1600's at 650whp. I know more than a few people running bosch 1600cc injectors making well over 700whp on a mustang dyno. Sounds like you are out of pump. What is your voltage like at high boost?

These 1600's are what I run with no issues. These do not have the tuning issues like the bosch's. They are compatible with Gas/Methanol/E85.

Deatschwerks

gixxerdrew said:

I'm planning to make a change on my car and move away from rising rate fuel pressure system, I hadn't bought injectors for quite some time so my information on which ones were good was a bit out of date.

I started searching around and there is a lot of hype from various manufacturers about different types and thought I'd ask for some feedback on ones you guys had tried. I need a few things, injectors that will work well at 70psi both off and on throttle, Deliver up to 750whp worth of E85 at 70psi, stock DSM style fuel rail fitment.

I am moving away from a rising rate system for several reasons, one of them is being able to protect engines in that I can detect any change in fuel pressure being a result of starvation or pump failure (this is the #1 reason, you can actually have a fuel pres warning that means something!). Simplify the hoses and routing in the engine bay. Repeatability and predictability in the tuning. One less failure point that can cost an engine since the team really cant afford to replace those, ever.

A friend of mine who worked at Honda Performance Division during the development of the LMP and Indy Car engine has offered to help out in the tuning department and this is going to be done on top notch Motec equipment so we wont have an issue on the tuning side!

Does anyone have an recommendations? It also needs to be affordable! We run on a shoestring budget on this team!

Click to expand...

Do you realize the Implications of what your asking about? The regulator is there to keep a constant pressure differential across the injectors. At Idle, you will be seeing about 75-80psi across the injectors. That makes your 2150's like 2900's. I see about 1msec pulse widths at cruize with my 750's on E85. Take a guess what you PW is gonna be with 2900's. about .25ms. Think even the most badass Injectors can open and close faster than that? I think your efforts may be better put into making your existing system more fail proof. You do know that a simple dp sensor can allow you to monitor your pressure differential across the injectors? But hey, what do I know. It's not like I have experience in process control or anything..

2gGSX said:

I don't know if you're at liberty to discuss the details of your car, but maxing out 4 1600's at 630 whp sounds a little odd to me. That's roughly 11 lbs/min of fuel, so even running 0.68 lambda you should be good for low-mid 70 lb/min of airflow.

What kind of pump setup are you guys running?

Click to expand...

spoolin ddub said:

2gGSX is correct. Maxing out 1600's at 650whp. I know more than a few people running bosch 1600cc injectors making well over 700whp on a mustang dyno. Sounds like you are out of pump. What is your voltage like at high boost?

These 1600's are what I run with no issues. These do not have the tuning issues like the bosch's. They are compatible with Gas/Methanol/E85.

Deatschwerks

Click to expand...

I think both of you should Re-Read what he said before...

He said he's maxing them out Yes... . But,
From what I understand...
At the same time saying that is HIS Max and it is very Conservative so that he under any condition won't exceed his limit. I'm pretty sure he knows he could make more with them but would like to keep the head room that he has now. So is going bigger before-hand... .

The point was he should have more than enough headroom with injectors and yet has hit his ceiling. Without knowing more information about his situation it's impossible to say either way--hence why I asked him about it.

gixxerdrew said:

Does anyone have an recommendations? It also needs to be affordable! We run on a shoestring budget on this team!

Click to expand...

If you are looking for affordable, I have my stock 2G ones you can use.

gixxerdrew said:

I am moving away from a rising rate system for several reasons, one of them is being able to protect engines in that I can detect any change in fuel pressure being a result of starvation or pump failure (this is the #1 reason, you can actually have a fuel pres warning that means something!).

Click to expand...

I would be more than happy to help you set up an electronic circuit to do this. You monitor MAP, correct? It should be easy to create an analog circuit that compares the 2 pressures. Or set something up in the daq

Setting up a fixed pressure supply seems like it would have a lot of negative consequences in the mapping, as noted above.

2gGSX said:

I don't know if you're at liberty to discuss the details of your car, but maxing out 4 1600's at 630 whp sounds a little odd to me. That's roughly 11 lbs/min of fuel, so even running 0.68 lambda you should be good for low-mid 70 lb/min of airflow.

What kind of pump setup are you guys running?

Click to expand...

spoolin ddub said:

2gGSX is correct. Maxing out 1600's at 650whp. I know more than a few people running bosch 1600cc injectors making well over 700whp on a mustang dyno. Sounds like you are out of pump. What is your voltage like at high boost?

These 1600's are what I run with no issues. These do not have the tuning issues like the bosch's. They are compatible with Gas/Methanol/E85.

Deatschwerks

Click to expand...

I dont know what calculator you guys are using but you must be calculating for gas and not alcohol or something. At rich AFRs and 30psi boost on a rising rate press regulator with E85 all the math AND the real world is adding up to the same thing on my end. 70lb/min is just a hair above what I am flowing now and we left just a bit of room on the map from the injector max because again we are not tuning a drag car.. there are no issues with the pumping or pump capacity. We have plenty of headroom there.

bastarddsm said:

Do you realize the Implications of what your asking about? The regulator is there to keep a constant pressure differential across the injectors. At Idle, you will be seeing about 75-80psi across the injectors. That makes your 2150's like 2900's. I see about 1msec pulse widths at cruize with my 750's on E85. Take a guess what you PW is gonna be with 2900's. about .25ms. Think even the most badass Injectors can open and close faster than that? I think your efforts may be better put into making your existing system more fail proof. You do know that a simple dp sensor can allow you to monitor your pressure differential across the injectors? But hey, what do I know. It's not like I have experience in process control or anything..

Click to expand...

All I can say about this bastarddsm, is that i know what I am doing and what I am getting into to an extent that is extremely well thought out. Everything you listed is already thought through, calculated and worked out how to compensate for. This isnt a new thing guys, race cars have been doing this for a LONG time. We are pushing the envelope a bit with the highish boost pressures but technology in injectors (among other things) have improved.

brads said:

If you are looking for affordable, I have my stock 2G ones you can use.




I would be more than happy to help you set up an electronic circuit to do this. You monitor MAP, correct? It should be easy to create an analog circuit that compares the 2 pressures. Or set something up in the daq

Setting up a fixed pressure supply seems like it would have a lot of negative consequences in the mapping, as noted above.

Click to expand...

Hey brad, thanks alot for the kind offer. Yah a second rail and set of injectors has been crossing my mind as well. Even something as simple as a couple injectors at the TB could work for the WOT stuff

Yah, the mapping is tough and there will be compromises no doubt. Regarding the fuel pressure warning, of course I can set up the DAQ end for any math. The problem is that it doesnt work. The system reacts too slowly physically. You'll get a warning light every time the fuel pressure needs to change or else you will need to give it enough of a window that a warning light is totally useless. An easy way to do it is just to look at a plot of fuel pres against boost pres and you can see it visually. But I need to warn the driver. You can go from being in fuel to out of fuel in a session, all before you get to see logs. This might be too late to prevent engine damage.

gixxerdrew said:

All I can say about this bastarddsm, is that i know what I am doing and what I am getting into to an extent that is extremely well thought out.

Regarding the fuel pressure warning, of course I can set up the DAQ end for any math. The problem is that it doesnt work. The system reacts too slowly physically. You'll get a warning light every time the fuel pressure needs to change or else you will need to give it enough of a window that a warning light is totally useless.

Click to expand...

Uhh? How can a differential pressure sensor react any slower than a gauge or absolute pressure sensor? Exactly what "race cars" use a fuel system with a static rail pressure? As far as I know, very few things use a fuel system where rail pressure does not track manifold pressure at a 1:1 ratio. One of them being after market forced induction setups that use a FMU to raise rail pressure at a 12:1 ratio, a raising rate as you call your current system. Even though it is clearly not.

I said the system physically doesnt react fast enough. I'm not talking about the sensor, I'm talking about the pressure at the rail not changing as fast as the pressure at the manifold. Its a physical system with constraints. Lots of enduro, le mans cars open wheel cars, lots and lots of cars have run without rising rate fuel pressure. Whatever you want to call it, I dont mind.

Hmm I just read about a BEAST scion running this kind of boost, let me see if I can find what they use.

Ugh, looks like they dont say, but Im sure they would be able to help..

Check it out 2010 Scion TC - World Domination - Modified Magazine

Hey thats Rado, hes been dominating the unlimited class. I believe they are running methanol on that beast.

Btw, How did you enjoy tuning those bosch 1600's. I grabbed a set for a steal but Ive read they are a pain!

gixxerdrew said:

I said the system physically doesnt react fast enough. I'm not talking about the sensor, I'm talking about the pressure at the rail not changing as fast as the pressure at the manifold. Its a physical system with constraints.

Click to expand...

What sort of lag are you seeing?